Author Topic: Where can I get a clear explanation of matrix? (Read 5450 times)

play-it-again · « **on:** November 21, 2003, 02:14:57 PM »

I have heard two defs - 1. A SBD/Mic mix & 2. A custom mix from the board. I could really use as much information as possible for both if anybody knows where I can find it or wishes to teach. Thanks!

sexymexi · « **Reply #1 on:** November 21, 2003, 02:19:29 PM »

good one.. would be interesting to see if, and what the definition would be.. when i've done it was was a SBD/mic mix. a custom mix from the board i think would be just a SBD mix, don't you?

sexymexi · « **Reply #2 on:** November 21, 2003, 02:22:33 PM »

oh but remember there are plenty of ways of going about a matrix.. you can run stage mics. all the normal mic placement stuff applies. height, ect. what exactly do you wanna know? how to run sound, and make a mix, run stereo, run effects? run just a rig? run a matrix?

Tim · « **Reply #3 on:** November 21, 2003, 02:25:00 PM »

auxilliary sbd mix is what I always labeled my cutom board mixes as usually I was taking it from an open auxilliary channel.

On higher end soundboards there is actually a matrix section with seperate outputs. you can mix thsi matrix section to taste. This owuld be the true and accurate definition of a "Matrix Mix" but it's never used. These tapes are generally just labeled "SBD"

In the taping/trading community "matrix mix" refers to a sbd feed mixed with audience mics for ambience. Go check out some of Dan Healy's "ultra-mix" matrixes.... 7/12/90 is a personal favorite of mine.

play-it-again · « **Reply #4 on:** November 21, 2003, 02:26:54 PM »

I have acquired a Digidesign Digi 002 which I am running with my Powerbook G4. I am hooking up with some bands to do matrix recordings and am finding that it does not necessarily mean what I thought. I need to bring myself up to speed but fast so that I don't embarrass the sh*t out of myself.

sexymexi · « **Reply #5 on:** November 21, 2003, 02:32:19 PM »

oh cool... yea tim hit it well.. in 12 hrs he'll have another +T.. but yea. here's the place to get ya up and ready to go. I'd say, just go for it. set up some mics, record just with open mics, and then go and mix the sbd into it, i think its easier to record from a SBD, but just go play, learn some mic techniques, go there, set up, and don't worry. peace.

matt

nic · « **Reply #6 on:** November 21, 2003, 02:38:36 PM »

play-it-again,
as Tim said matrix is usally referred to as a sbd/mic mix. yes, many boards have an actual "matrix" out, but that is used for custom mixes and unless you are going to multitrack just grab a stereo out(either XLR, TRS 1/4", 2x 1/4" mono or 2xRCA)

when mixing mics keep in mind the distance of the sbd from the stage and distance of the mics from the p/a...this will determine how much delay you need to add to the sbd signal.
generally(if mics are at sbd), the delay you need to add to the sbd is about 1ms for every foot distance, but always trust your ears when mixing instead of a set math formula.

also, if you happen to put the mics on stage(and run it back to the sbd area where your digi002/powerbook is) you wont need to add any delay

play-it-again · « **Reply #7 on:** November 21, 2003, 02:39:49 PM »

I've been using an MBox for quite a while. I've been very happy with it... love Pro Tools. Can't wait to get into the Digi 002 but am smart enough to know what I don't know and that I need to know more about what I don't know... ya know?

nic · « **Reply #8 on:** November 21, 2003, 02:42:41 PM »

how do you like the m-box?
everyone I know who has used it says the mic preamps are too noisy

play-it-again · « **Reply #9 on:** November 21, 2003, 02:45:27 PM »

I have 8 inputs on the Digi. If I am not getting a board matrix mix what should I try to get from the board? Obviously I'll be using 2 for the mics, I assume that I'll want the (post effects... I think its called) stereo output from the board, leaving 4 inputs. Should I try to get individual instruments and vocals, etc in? Can I get that from a board?

This is my first time on the board. I CANNOT BELIEVE how responsive you all are. I cannot thank you enough!

I have to go do some work for a bit but I will check back in about 45 minutes. Thanks again.

play-it-again · « **Reply #10 on:** November 21, 2003, 02:47:32 PM »

The MBox has been good for me. However, I am still relatively new and probably don't have enough experience to provide a good assessment .

Bye again.

Simp-Dawg · « **Reply #11 on:** November 21, 2003, 04:09:32 PM »

unless you can separate each instrument/vox input from the board into your digi 002, then don't worry about multitracking from the board. just get a stereo signal from the main or aux outs, assuming it is mixed well. in some venues the boards won't be mixed very well because of the acoustics in the venue do not require everything to be coming out of the p.a. unless you are running your own board and have the ability to separate what goes to the p.a. and what goes to your recording device, it may be to your benefit to *solely* run an audience rig. but i digress....
probably your easiest solution is to run stereo out of the board, and then run an audience rig also, depending on how good the board sounds, when you mix them together use about 75% sbd and 25% aud, and you can mix in more aud if the board is lacking in some areas.
good luck!

nic · « **Reply #12 on:** November 21, 2003, 04:27:47 PM »

"75% sbd and 25% aud"

wow, at that ratio your looking at a fairly sterile sounding recording.

unless the room is shitty sounding, we usually mix 50/50 or 40/60(sbd/mics).
most sbd weve ever mixed in was 60/40.

something to keep in mind: the bass(kick and bass instrument) you hear at a show is usually coming from the POST sbd EQ. . .

play-it-again · « **Reply #13 on:** November 21, 2003, 04:47:07 PM »

Whaddayathink about using two different types of mics? (4 total)

nic · « **Reply #14 on:** November 21, 2003, 04:52:23 PM »

the only thing I can see using 4 mics is if you put a pair onstage and the other pair at the sbd...then you are going to have to add delay to the the sbd AND the onstage mics

Simp-Dawg · « **Reply #15 on:** November 21, 2003, 04:52:59 PM »

Quote from: luvean on November 21, 2003, 04:27:47 PM

"75% sbd and 25% aud"

wow, at that ratio your looking at a fairly sterile sounding recording.

unless the room is shitty sounding, we usually mix 50/50 or 40/60(sbd/mics).
most sbd weve ever mixed in was 60/40.

something to keep in mind: the bass(kick and bass instrument) you hear at a show is usually coming from the POST sbd EQ. . .

ok...
admittedly i've never done a matrix and i pulled those numbers outta my ass.
however, i do think that is how the soundman for railroad earth said he set up the matrix at quixotes a few months back.

play-it-again · « **Reply #16 on:** November 21, 2003, 06:13:41 PM »

I guess what I am thinking is different types of mics picking up the sound differently. Mixed together they might compliment each other the same way the sbd/auds do.

nic · « **Reply #17 on:** November 21, 2003, 06:34:23 PM »

how big are the venues your talking about?

the only time Ive run multiple mics in a room that have produced a good tape when mixed have been either a onstage+foh pull or this 1 time in Baltimore at really TINY club called 13th Floor and the band didnt use the p/a for anything but vocals. we set up 4 mics about 10' from stage all on the same stand, 2x MG m200 + 2x AKG 391, AKG's in x/y and MG's in ortf.
setup similar to a " W " shape
...mixed the 4 channels in DP3 to give it a nice wide soundstage(no hole-in-middle due to x/y) and everything is crystal clear.
let me see if I can find a track to put up for you to hear.

guess the story comes down(imo) to 4 mics being used only in damn small places or spread out(onstage and at foh-or center). you'll have to be careful in mix-down to avoid phasing issues and delays.

anyone else want to chime in?

cpclark · « **Reply #18 on:** November 21, 2003, 09:17:28 PM »

Quote from: Tim on November 21, 2003, 02:25:00 PM

auxilliary sbd mix is what I always labeled my cutom board mixes as usually I was taking it from an open auxilliary channel.

On higher end soundboards there is actually a matrix section with seperate outputs. you can mix thsi matrix section to taste. This owuld be the true and accurate definition of a "Matrix Mix" but it's never used. These tapes are generally just labeled "SBD"

In the taping/trading community "matrix mix" refers to a sbd feed mixed with audience mics for ambience. Go check out some of Dan Healy's "ultra-mix" matrixes.... 7/12/90 is a personal favorite of mine.

tim-ive been thinking about how i run the sbd patch out of my board for my band, i have 6 aux with full control for all the channels, so should i just mix to taste all the channels then run mono 1/4 -> 1/8 for my sony dat line in, thats what im thinking, i know its gonna be a lot of work, running the sbd, running the mix to my dat and running my full rig, but would the aux be a good choice for a custom mix for me?

Tim · « **Reply #19 on:** November 21, 2003, 09:28:09 PM »

I did that all the time... it's actually how I learned to construct a mix when I was just some kid with a deck and no sound experience.

Record the soundcheck and listen back. Use a PRE fade aux send. Not too much verb or effects, they can really saturate the tape. If you're doing the same band on the same board a lot it should be really easy after just a few times out. I could usually just guess and have it pretty close.

I used to hangout at the big venue in town (eventually became the house soundman) and would patch my deck and make my mixes. Still have some of those tapes and they sound pretty sweet!

justink · « **Reply #20 on:** November 22, 2003, 02:06:26 AM »

i've done some sbd and aud mixes in real time w/ the mixpad 4... some come out pretty well... but others sound like complete ass! if you have two recordable media... ie a dat and a jb3... i'd do them both seperate then mix them in post!

-j

Author Topic: Where can I get a clear explanation of matrix? (Read 5450 times)

cpclark