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Author Topic: Edirol R-09 input woes  (Read 114622 times)

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Offline Carlos E. Martinez

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Re: Edirol R-09 input woes
« Reply #45 on: November 18, 2006, 08:17:05 PM »
plugging it in, and never removing it is a little too simplistic, and unrealistic.
What about when you want to transfer your recording to the computer.... Isn't the Y cable going to be exposed to lots of banging, and jostling, that it might not receive if unplugged?

I've stealthed a dozen shows with mine, at least. And, all with a straight neutrik 1/8" stereo connector, and not had any issues, at all.

Simplistic it may be. Unrealistic not really so.

Realistic is the fact that with so many plug-ins & plug-outs the 1/8" springs will wear out and start losing contact. That is a fact that has to do with how much will you be using your equipment.

It's mostly a question of routine, really.

And I am not the first one to propose such an alternative. Whole mixers are designed in Europe that let you strap a Minidisc onto an enclosure that works as an interface to better preamps and connectors.

In the '80s there was an US company that modified a Sony WD6C, which used cassette and had Dolby-C, and provided cables for inputs and outputs. Their advice was to velcro the cables to the leather case and never to unplug them. Whatever interconnection to the "external world" you did through those sturdier connectors.

What I am doing is suggesting a way to take better care of the fragilities of these powerful recorders. You can take it or leave it, of course.

Offline guysonic

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Re: Edirol R-09 input woes
« Reply #46 on: November 19, 2006, 03:41:26 AM »
From my perspective, the R-09 input jacks seemed to have several problems that 'Murphy' made very visible to us users of the deck.

1. The two analog SURFACE MOUNTED input jacks were designed to have 2 alignment registration pins that projected through 2 drill holes in the PCB UNDER EACH JACK.  These registration pins were supposed to keep the jack from moving sideways and stressing the solder pads.  Furthermore, each jack was supposed to be GLUED DOWN to further keep UP_DOWN motion from again stressing the circuit solder pads.

2. As it happened, the two input jacks that were used DID NOT HAVE ANY ALIGNMENT PINS whatsoever, so NOTHING PROJECTED INTO the drilled PCB board holes to secure sideways motion, AND NO ADHESIVE was placed on these WRONG SELECTED jacks leaving the solder pads as the ONLY securing mechanism.

3. The Summer 2006 production run produced BAD SOLDERING on the jack-to-board pads that easily broke with little force, and the decks that DID NOT HAVE bad solder joints were still prone to rip off the circuit pads if the someone used straight or commonly found large right angle plugs that could easily be bumped or have the plug cord tugged to stress the jack to have even good soldered pads break free of the circuit board. 

4. Many of us here found the bad solder joints and fixed these, and some of us applied adhesive to the sides of the jacks to help secure this jack to something more solid than the circuit traces.

5. It was also suggested in a few threads here for users NOT to use straight plugs AT ALL, or EVEN right angle plugs with large dimensions that easily stress the jacks by a bump or cord tug incident so a minimum of torque is applied in any case. This is also good advice for ANY MINIJACK regardless, but even more important with the R-09.

6. Edirol so far HAS NOT REPLACED THESE JACKS WITH PROPER ONES WITH ALIGHMENT PINS THAT FIT THE HOLES IN THE BOARD.  However, the soldering in recent runs is good, AND THEY ARE NOW APPLYING A GOOD ADHERRING SILICONE ADHESIVE , but ONLY ON THE SIDES OF THE JACK, that while sticking well, is NOT rigid, and this still allows the jacks to move every so slightly if enough stress is applied, so there's still a possibility of the circuit pads being damaged, but much less chance now with the glue.

Users that want to glue down their jacks must understand that the circuit board has a protective coating that resists such treatment, and the plastic used in jacks is not friendly to most adhesives to stick well so choose an adhesive that is specially designed to work with difficult plastics so the glue actually holds.  Cleaning with 91%+ pure Isopropyl alcohol is suggested as this enhances gluing to plastics.  This is why Edirol decided on the silicone as it has good sticking properties with these materials, and doesn't easily flow INTO THE JACK, but I would prefer a more rigid epoxy made specially for holding onto plastics, but be careful with these as they can easily flow run INTO the jack and this could be a show stopper!

7. Users of minijack featured decks should be extra gentle plugging in and removing connectors, and careful with using correctly designed right angle plugs ONLY.  I always treat the jacks on my own and customer's decks with CAIG LABS ProGold treatment (see my accessories page for description links) as this helps lubricate, enhance the electrical contact, and prolong the plated surfaces.  The R-09 headphone jack has additional soldered pads for optical output circuitry, and is far less delicate with over twice the contact pads and surface area to the board.

8.  My own and a scarce few other companies offer SAFE designed right-angle molded miniplugs that are very low profile with small flexible cord that extend the minijack connection ~10" off the deck so frequent unplugging does not happen on the deck's jack, and adapters that convert the minijack to work other mic connector types. These are suggested to prolong the life of your minideck's minijacks.
"mics? I no got no mics!  Besides, I no have to show you no stink'n mics!" stxxlth taper's disclaimer

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Offline Jamos

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Re: Edirol R-09 input woes
« Reply #47 on: November 19, 2006, 04:22:03 AM »
Instead of leaving a Y-cable plugged into the deck all the time, how about leaving a right-angle 1/8" male-to-female adapter plug/cable in there all of the time...?  I've got a hard molded rat-shack one that I've left plugged into my deck since purchasing it.  So my 1/8" on the R-09 has only ever been plugged and unplugged a couple of times. 

Seems like a realistic solution without being too bulky. 

I think I'd like one of the better right-angle plug adapters though, like the one guysonic sells...
think I'll have to check out his webpage again.

/j



Offline Carlos E. Martinez

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Re: Edirol R-09 input woes
« Reply #48 on: November 19, 2006, 07:07:03 AM »
Instead of leaving a Y-cable plugged into the deck all the time, how about leaving a right-angle 1/8" male-to-female adapter plug/cable in there all of the time...?  I've got a hard molded rat-shack one that I've left plugged into my deck since purchasing it.  So my 1/8" on the R-09 has only ever been plugged and unplugged a couple of times. 

Seems like a realistic solution without being too bulky. 

I think I'd like one of the better right-angle plug adapters though, like the one guysonic sells...
think I'll have to check out his webpage again.

No, if you want your connections to last you will have to find a solution that will demand one or two cables to dangle from your R9.

If you want this to be a bit smaller use one 1/4" stereo jack on the other end, which is a sturdier connector. That will also allow you just one cable, instead of two for the Y.

That concept was also valid for Sony smaller DAT recorders and for MDs, of course.

One thing I still don't understand is why more manufacturers of these more sophisticated "prosumer" products don't adopt the 1/8" threaded jack, which has been around for more than 15 years. Only Sony, and quite timidly, has used threaded 1/8" on some of their wireless mics and on the Sony FX1.

The main problem with the 1/8" connection is that the plug moves inside the jack and makes its death inevitable. A thread avoids that, locking the plug and not letting it move.

I wonder if it's possible to upgrade the standard R9 jack and put a threaded type there. The ball is with you now, Guysonic... :)
« Last Edit: November 19, 2006, 07:12:08 AM by Carlos E. Martinez »

Offline Nick's Picks

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Re: Edirol R-09 input woes
« Reply #49 on: November 19, 2006, 07:53:31 AM »
as per RA stereo mini plugs, i'm a big fan of the neutrik ends.  they are small, and light as opposed to the switchcraft ones which are much beefier.

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=092-333

Offline guysonic

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Re: Edirol R-09 input woes
« Reply #50 on: November 19, 2006, 04:32:12 PM »
as per RA stereo mini plugs, i'm a big fan of the neutrik ends.  they are small, and light as opposed to the switchcraft ones which are much beefier.

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=092-333

This is a very nicely made plug.  It's taken years for Neutrik to start making connectors for 3.5mm.  Unfortunately, the 1.327" body length is too much at almost twice the body-length of the 'safe' molded right-angle plugs I am suggesting.  This Neutrik plug, while having lower 'vertical' height, places the same liability for excessive input jack torque stress as using the usual straight plugs.

 
"mics? I no got no mics!  Besides, I no have to show you no stink'n mics!" stxxlth taper's disclaimer

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Offline Nick's Picks

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Re: Edirol R-09 input woes
« Reply #51 on: November 19, 2006, 06:34:33 PM »
yea, i know.
its a nice piece, but its not nearly as small as some of the molded ones I have laying around on various devices.  I should just hack one of them.
wish i knew were to get little molded ones.

Offline Carlos E. Martinez

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Re: Edirol R-09 input woes
« Reply #52 on: November 19, 2006, 06:42:42 PM »
This is a very nicely made plug.  It's taken years for Neutrik to start making connectors for 3.5mm.  Unfortunately, the 1.327" body length is too much at almost twice the body-length of the 'safe' molded right-angle plugs I am suggesting.  This Neutrik plug, while having lower 'vertical' height, places the same liability for excessive input jack torque stress as using the usual straight plugs.

Just by the picture I can't quite see how much longer the angled Neutrik connector is compared to yours, but you could offer a ready made cable using your molded connector and a 1/4" stereo jack at the other end for people to plug mics or lines. The rule of never unplugging these short cables should be followed though. 

But I still think the best thing would be to replace the R9 connector, if feasible, with a threaded 3.5m stereo jack, like that used on the Sony FX1 camera. Unfortunately there's notmuch space to replace it with a serious connector, like a mini-XLR for instance.  
« Last Edit: November 19, 2006, 06:48:00 PM by Carlos E. Martinez »

Offline Carlos E. Martinez

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Re: Edirol R-09 input woes
« Reply #53 on: November 19, 2006, 08:22:10 PM »
I've wondered whether leaving the plug in all the time would degrade the spring force of the socket contacts.  Some of those springs are coil, some are leaf.

I have never seen a 1/4" or 1/8" jack which was not leaf springed, but I may have missed it. Leaving it on all the time would not degrade the spring, because when you insert the plug there's a point of it that exceeds the "maximum pressure" and then rests on a lesser pressure. The "contact position" does not degrade the pressure on the plug in the long term. At least on good quality jacks. Going through that "maximum pressure" point several times, by plugging and unplugging, causes the wobbling I talked about.

Quote
If I ever get worried about the 1/8 input, I'll just remove the original sockets from the board and solder in a 6" pigtail with the female end of my choice.  That's one of the reasons I haven't applied any glue.

Removing the 1/8" socket is certainly the best way to do it. I did it. This comes from the time of my first walkmans, which starting misconnecting after some months. So I opened it and soldered a cable through the connector hole, using a 1/4" female jack. Audio improved a lot, particularly low-frequencies, which made me think that 1/8" jacks can be capacitive. But that is just a theory.

In any case, removing the 1/8" input would invalidate the warranty, which the adapter cable wouldn't.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2006, 08:36:28 PM by Carlos E. Martinez »

Offline Nick's Picks

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Re: Edirol R-09 input woes
« Reply #54 on: November 20, 2006, 06:48:02 AM »
so your quarter inch jack, i assume is a stereo phono jack ?

Offline Carlos E. Martinez

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Re: Edirol R-09 input woes
« Reply #55 on: November 20, 2006, 07:12:24 AM »
so your quarter inch jack, i assume is a stereo phono jack ?


As far as I know, that's the correct name. The phono jack is really the RCA jack.

Except for the XLR, the 1/4" connector is probably the most popular one in the pro market. And I think there are good reasons for it. Even studio interconnects are based on the jack spring principle. That's why I advocate it as a second choice, after XLR, for mic inputs.

But once again, the main question is to keep plug-unplug on the R9 (or any) 1/8" to a minimum.

Offline Nick's Picks

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Re: Edirol R-09 input woes
« Reply #56 on: November 20, 2006, 07:41:41 AM »
yea, quarter inch, phono, "headphone"...lots of names.
I know its an industry standard.

do you use the XLR locking style ?  those are nice.  I just started using the neutrik model and found it pretty sweet.
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=092-134

I wonder if a microphone were to be removed, if a tiny XLR jack could be installed there.
or, as you did..., if one can run cable out of the unit somehow then you can terminate it w/anything.
XLR , mini, etc etc
« Last Edit: November 20, 2006, 08:55:40 AM by Nick's Picks »

Offline Carlos E. Martinez

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Re: Edirol R-09 input woes
« Reply #57 on: November 20, 2006, 08:08:24 AM »
yea, quarter inch, phono, "headphone"...lots of names.
I know its an industry standard.

Some parts become industry standards because they fulfill many requirements, in a safe and repeatable way. There are lots of XLR connector brands and not all of them are too good. I try to stick to Neutrik and Switchcraft if I can afford it, for price or size reasons. Gold plated contacts are a good thing, because they tend to last longer. But beware of some fancy connectors that don't provide much for the money. Good cable is also essential.

Quote
do you use the XLR locking style ?  those are nice. 


If you mean the Neutrik locking jack cable connector, it's not really XLR, even if the outer metal part is similar.

Quote
I just started using the neutrik model and found it pretty sweet.
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=092-134

It's very nice, probably a bit heavy. But it locks the plug and secures the cable on the back. That is very important.

It's rather large though, so a metal type, with gold plated contacts, may do the job too and be smaller. The good thing of most 1/4" jacks is that they usually have a good grip on the contact. In any case never let 1/4" or 1/8" connectors lying on the floor, which is something you can do with XLR connectors.

Quote
I wonder a speaker were to be removed, if a tiny XLR jack could be installed there.

XLR connectors were not designed for speakers interconnection, and you may blow some speakers by plugging or unplugging them. Same thing with jacks of any type. There's a specific Neutrik speaker connector that should be used.

Quote
or, as you did..., if one can run cable out of the unit somehow then you can terminate it w/anything.
XLR , mini, etc etc

The cabled connection is always the best, but it invalidates warranties. They should only be provided after warranty expires or if you are really after the best quality. You will have to find a way to fix the cable though, but that a good technician can do that.

Offline Nick's Picks

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Re: Edirol R-09 input woes
« Reply #58 on: November 20, 2006, 08:55:00 AM »
yea...I understand.
I said speaker (though I meant microphone :)

I was talking about gutting the housing for one side, or both, and re-wiring so that you could supply additional inputs.  Thats what I was getting at.
would be a nice mod.  That, and 9v plug in power.
of course, warranties would be invalidated.  that goes w/o saying.

Offline Carlos E. Martinez

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Re: Edirol R-09 input woes
« Reply #59 on: November 20, 2006, 09:07:20 AM »
I was talking about gutting the housing for one side, or both, and re-wiring so that you could supply additional inputs.  Thats what I was getting at.

I don't quite get what you mean by additional inputs. You can get only two.

Quote
would be a nice mod.  That, and 9v plug in power.
of course, warranties would be invalidated.  that goes w/o saying.

Can you be a bit more clear on what 9v power you mean? To power the R9? Or to power microphones?

The greatest lack in the R9, as I see it, is that it doesn't have balanced inputs and no phantom power for pro mics. That can't be provided in the available space.

 

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