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Clippy mics on Edirol R09-HR -> Battery box or PIP??

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TheJez:
Hi all,
I've been recording mostly loud concerts with my Edirol R09-HR and a set of coresound stealth cardioid mics (with accompanying 9V battery box) for many years, with very satisfying results. However, for high dynamic concerts (e.g. just the sound of footsteps on the stage between songs, mostly low volume songs and a few loud songs), the large amount of self-noise of the coresounds is rather disturbing.
Especially for these kinds of shows I am considering getting a pair of Clippy mics with the EM272M capsules. The Edirol recorder can provide PIP to the microphones, I think the voltage is something like 2.7V.
I am wondering if it would be advisable to get/build a 9V battery box for the Clippy's, or if the recorder-provided PIP would be sufficient?
Is there a benefit getting a battery box? If so, is it a practical or theoretical benefit? (Unfortunately the coresound battery box can't easily be used for other mics due to special connectors used...)
Thanks in advance for your opinions, ideas and advices!

Rairun:
I always use my Clippys with an 8V battery box, but I haven't actually tried using a lower voltage. Not sure how well they would fare. Either way, just beware that they are very sensitive mics, and they managed to overload a Zoom F3 when I stood about 2 meters away from the PA stacks (at this show: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykiB_YYoYis - the audio your hear are from CA-11s, but I tested the Clippys during the opening act). I had set the inputs to MIC (maximum input level of +4 dBu); it might have been OK if I had set them to LINE (maximum input level of +24 dBu). Tbh, I never really use the Clippys for music - they are good for field recording.

Are you sure microphone self-noise is the issue here? Before buying the Zoom F3, I taped with a Roland R-05, and I ran into self-noise issues as well at high dynamic concerts. I'd set the gain for the loud songs so they wouldn't clip, which meant the gain staging for the quiet songs was far from ideal. When I fixed the level in post, what I would hear was the R-05's self-noise, not the mics'.

I'm asking you this because if you were already setting the gain properly for the quiet songs, then yeah, giving more sensitive mics a try would make a lot of sense. But if the gain staging is less than ideal because of the loud songs, sensitive mics won't help much. The quiet parts will still be relatively quiet to the recorder. What you need is multi-stage ADCs, probably.

robgronotte:
I've used the CSCs for many years and have never had any problem with noise that didn't actually come from the room or occasionally if I bump the mics. I also suspect the noise could have another source, but it would probably help if your described it. Are you certain the mics aren't damaged? They're very fragile, which is the only thing I don't like about them.
Have you tried a new battery in the box?

TheJez:
Thanks for thinking along here! These kinds of shows always seem challenging to me for a couple of reasons:

* There is no support act that I could use to set the recoding levels correct
* I know there will be a few parts that will be relatively loud compared to the rest of the show, but no idea when they will be or how loud they will be. Therefor I tend to set the levels conservatively. I don't like noisy recordings but I really hate clipping recordings! Changing levels during the show is also something I try to avoid.
* Because of the huge difference in volume of the songs, the show needs some post processing to make it a pleasant listening experience afterwards. Just normalizing isn't sufficient, it really needs dynamics compression to assure the quiet parts become loud enough for playback. As a side effect, obviously, the noise in the quiet parts also gets 'extra' amplified.
What I did so far is removing the noise with Audition before doing the dynamics processing. The noise is well-defined becuase of the almost completely silent parts in the recording. This certainly helps, but especially with the very quiet parts, there will be noticable artifacts due to the noise removal process.
For those who want to listen for themselves, I've uploaded a sample of such a recording. It is fully unprocessed, starting with a 'loud part', followed by a quiet part. The applause is the loudest and shows that I could/should have set the recording level higher:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZiLCcv0kI1K5xeoUX1n-YaxfOOobUMHj/view?usp=sharing

Prefereably, in the furture while recording such performances, I'd like to lower/prevent the noise as early in the process as possible. The repliers so far questioned the source of the noise, and maybe they're right. I was blaming the self noise of the CS mics because of the info on their website:


--- Quote ---One of our modifications alters the microphone's sensitivity to approximately -70 dB (0 dB = 1 Volt per microbar), making them ideally suited for recording extremely loud sound sources without danger of overloading your mic pre-amp. This very low sensitivity makes these mics less suitable for recording quiet sound sources.
--- End quote ---

and


--- Quote ---Thanks to our modifications, the microphones have an undistorted dynamic range of over 90 dB, compared to the unmodified capsules' approximately 60 dB dynamic range. They will handle sound pressure levels of more than 138 dB. They are designed to operate into a nominal impedance of between 4.7 and 10 KiloOhms. Their self-noise level is approximately 35 dBA. This is far below the ambient noise level at concerts. (Note that the self-noise specification also makes these mics not especially suitable for recording very quiet sound sources.)
--- End quote ---

Maybe someone who can do the math and listen to the sample I've uploaded can tell better if it's the mics or the recorder who's to blame for the noise, and if using a pair of Clippies with their low self noise would have helped in such situations.
It seems the challenges with setting the record level correct in high dynamic shows could be avoided by using a multi-DAC system like the F3, but I'm not very fond of its form factor for my general purposes  ;D. The recently announced Zoom H1 XLR might be a better option in that respect, so I'm keeping a keen eye on its reviews and reports once it becomes available.

The feedback so far is really appreciated, but my initial question hasn't really been addressed yet: IF I'd be using a pair of Clippy mics, is the recorder-provided PIP sufficient, or is it advisable to use a ~9V battery box? If so, what would improve compared to PIP?

TheJez:

--- Quote from: robgronotte on August 12, 2024, 05:50:50 AM ---I've used the CSCs for many years and have never had any problem with noise that didn't actually come from the room or occasionally if I bump the mics. I also suspect the noise could have another source, but it would probably help if your described it. Are you certain the mics aren't damaged? They're very fragile, which is the only thing I don't like about them.
Have you tried a new battery in the box?

--- End quote ---
I'm sure the mics are fine and I regularly replace the battery in the box. With loud shows there is no problem. With loud parts in high dynamic shows there is no problem either. It's just the quiet parts in high dynamic shows where the noise is much more apparent than I'd like...

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