Topic: applause volume for quiet show

[junkyardt]

Got a volume problem with a recent tape. The show was extremely quiet and I was all the way in the back of the venue, so unfortunately the signal of the applause is much stronger than the signal of the music. So as it is (raw) the music is very quiet and the applause is moderately loud. I amplified the whole thing 10db and that makes the music more listenable but the applause becomes ear-splitting. I tried normalize but that doesnt seem to work within a single file. Is there anything I can do? Do I have to split the show into separate tracks of applause and non-applause and normalize those? But there are many points where there is loud applause for spurts of time during songs, over top the music. So I'm not sure how well that would work. Any thoughts?

[Dede2002]

Got a volume problem with a recent tape. The show was extremely quiet and I was all the way in the back of the venue, so unfortunately the signal of the applause is much stronger than the signal of the music. So as it is (raw) the music is very quiet and the applause is moderately loud. I amplified the whole thing 10db and that makes the music more listenable but the applause becomes ear-splitting. I tried normalize but that doesnt seem to work within a single file. Is there anything I can do? Do I have to split the show into separate tracks of applause and non-applause and normalize those? But there are many points where there is loud applause for spurts of time during songs, over top the music. So I'm not sure how well that would work. Any thoughts?

Hello,

That's what I do. I' not telling that this is the wright or the best way, just how I do. Works for me.
All you have to do select ( on your waveform) the parts where the applause is ruin the music and use some compression. Light compression will do just fine. Doing so you can control the applause to music ratio to keep it natural.
Hope that helps. But I'm sure qualified TS members will help you with more details ( if needed).

[vanark]

I've had good success using an envelope tool to tame the in between song applause.  If you say what software you are using, perhaps someone can give you some help if you can't figure it out.  I've used Audacity.

[Brian Skalinder]

I've used compression and / or a volume envelope to reduce the thunderous applause and bring it down to, or below, the level of the music.  If the applause is during music, I've found it sounds best bringing the applause down to the level of the music, but not below.  Search the Computer Recording forum for keywords:  volume envelope, compression, and maybe whatever software you use to see if anyone has specific comments on how to accomplish these tasks with your s/w.

[easy jim]

You could also use a hard limiter, setting the threshold by finding the loudest musical peak, and using the fastest attack and release settings.  Once you find the loudest musical peak (say at -10dBFS, for instance), set the threshold at - or just above - that peak: -10dB.  Then, you can add that much make up gain after the limiter squashes the peaks from the applause that rise above -10dBFS.

A 'volume envelope,' to my understanding, does that exact same thing, but saves a few processing steps actually dialing in compressor/limiter settings other than the threshold (which would be preset as far as attack/release and ratio - if the 'volume envelope' process compresses at some high compression ratio like 20:1 or 40:1 instead of limiter ratios like 100:1 or infinity:1)

[mr qpl]

another good suggestion is to tape to the music, not the applause volume, the applause will clip heavily and it can either be reduced via the envelope method, I suggest a 20- 40% to 100% U curve, or using the clip reduction functions ( these are per Cool Edit)

good luck!!

[Brian Skalinder]

another good suggestion is to tape to the music, not the applause volume, the applause will clip heavily and it can either be reduced via the envelope method, I suggest a 20- 40% to 100% U curve, or using the clip reduction functions ( these are per Cool Edit)

I've done this before, setting levels for the music and not applause.  Sometimes it worked well, sometimes it didn't.  If it was just clapping that clipped, the results usually didn't sound too bad.  But if a hoot or holler caused the clipping, it sounded really nasty and was unrecoverable.

[mr qpl]

another good suggestion is to tape to the music, not the applause volume, the applause will clip heavily and it can either be reduced via the envelope method, I suggest a 20- 40% to 100% U curve, or using the clip reduction functions ( these are per Cool Edit)

I've done this before, setting levels for the music and not applause.  Sometimes it worked well, sometimes it didn't.  If it was just clapping that clipped, the results usually didn't sound too bad.  But if a hoot or holler caused the clipping, it sounded really nasty and was unrecoverable.

found the clip reduction works EXCELLENT if you record without using the dc offset.  YMMV

[mr qpl]

well, i'm not sure what you mean by taping to the music, it was a really quiet show. i ran my levels maxed out at 10 for both sources and still got only about 1/8 to 1/4 of the way up the meter at any point during the music. i couldnt have gone any higher.

I wasn't sure that was what you'd done. Max levels and still quiet means you apparently need a pre

[Brian Skalinder]

I've done this before, setting levels for the music and not applause.  Sometimes it worked well, sometimes it didn't.  If it was just clapping that clipped, the results usually didn't sound too bad.  But if a hoot or holler caused the clipping, it sounded really nasty and was unrecoverable.

found the clip reduction works EXCELLENT if you record without using the dc offset.  YMMV

My mileage definitely varied!    The gear I've used did not have DC offest, and the clipping from hooting and hollering was still unrecoverable.  Haven't done it since.  :shrugs:

[dank]

ha!  I just started another thread asking the same question about this ame Tom Waits show. 

[Liquid Drum]

I use CoolEdit Pro to master and use Hard Limiting to reduce peaks. Just highlight the bits that need lowering and then lower them to a level thats more reasonable (basically you limit the loudness of those peaks).

[Dede2002]

I use CoolEdit Pro to master and use Hard Limiting to reduce peaks. Just highlight the bits that need lowering and then lower them to a level thats more reasonable (basically you limit the loudness of those peaks).

Curious: is there a Hard Limiting feature on Audacity or Sound Studio? 
Thanks in advance,

Sergio

[T.J.]

You could also use a hard limiter, setting the threshold by finding the loudest musical peak, and using the fastest attack and release settings.  Once you find the loudest musical peak (say at -10dBFS, for instance), set the threshold at - or just above - that peak: -10dB.  Then, you can add that much make up gain after the limiter squashes the peaks from the applause that rise above -10dBFS.

hmm, this sounds like something i would like to try. i guess you would apply the hard limiter to the entire file? so you use the fastest attack and release setting to find the loudest musical peak? if not, how can you determine the loudest musical peak fairly easy (without listening the entire file and guesstimating)

sorry for the pseudo hijack

[Brian Skalinder]

i guess you would apply the hard limiter to the entire file? so you use the fastest attack and release setting to find the loudest musical peak? if not, how can you determine the loudest musical peak fairly easy (without listening the entire file and guesstimating)

You could apply to whole file, or only to specific areas.  You have to find the loudest musical peak manually, if the applause are louder than the music.  I just eyeball it, doesn't take long at all.

IME, hard limiting can deliver unpleasant results in some cases.  I far prefer lighter compression and / or a volume envelope, though both are a bit more effort.

[nameloc01]

push DELETE.

[T.J.]

i guess you would apply the hard limiter to the entire file? so you use the fastest attack and release setting to find the loudest musical peak? if not, how can you determine the loudest musical peak fairly easy (without listening the entire file and guesstimating)

You could apply to whole file, or only to specific areas.  You have to find the loudest musical peak manually, if the applause are louder than the music.  I just eyeball it, doesn't take long at all.

IME, hard limiting can deliver unpleasant results in some cases.  I far prefer lighter compression and / or a volume envelope, though both are a bit more effort.

i have an idea where the peak is in the music. i think i would want to perform either a hard limiter/light compression/volume envelope to the entire file b/c the clapping is during songs too. essentially what i would want to do (similar to the original poster) is bring down those peaks caused by clapping, then add some gain to "bring up" the levels of the music.

anyone use some specific plugins in wavelab to do this?

[easy jim]

i guess you would apply the hard limiter to the entire file? so you use the fastest attack and release setting to find the loudest musical peak? if not, how can you determine the loudest musical peak fairly easy (without listening the entire file and guesstimating)

You could apply to whole file, or only to specific areas.  You have to find the loudest musical peak manually, if the applause are louder than the music.  I just eyeball it, doesn't take long at all.

IME, hard limiting can deliver unpleasant results in some cases.  I far prefer lighter compression and / or a volume envelope, though both are a bit more effort.

Yeah...I find the loudest musical peak manually.  It's usually not too hard from looking at the waveform (zoom in vertically if necessary) after taking a look at the entire horizontal waveform on your screen.  I apply it to the whole file as a plug-in on the master fader/bus track when I do a bounce in Digital Performer.

I agree, Brian, that hard limiting can have unpleasant results if the settings are off or the plug-in/rack unit is too slow.  A couple that come to mind are (1) 'pumping' sounds -amplitude changes - when the attack/release 'grabs' or 'lets go' of the signal and (2) the mix sounds harsh and unmusical when the frequencies of an extremely loud peak are 'squashed' by the limiter and tend to dominate the frequencies you hear for that snapshot in time of the loud peak.  When hard limiting to try and bring applause peaks down in line with the musical peaks, a really fast attack/release can help with (1) and there's not much you can do about (2) without getting into audio 'repair' software like iZotope or SoundSoap or somthing like that.  If your applause peaks are so much louder than the music that (2) is a real problem, then an audio 'repair' program is probably going to be the best tool.

[ljsurfer2002]

I use CoolEdit Pro to master and use Hard Limiting to reduce peaks. Just highlight the bits that need lowering and then lower them to a level thats more reasonable (basically you limit the loudness of those peaks).

Curious: is there a Hard Limiting feature on Audacity or Sound Studio? 
Thanks in advance,

Sergio

In Adobe Audition I use hard limiting to lower the clapping portion of quiet shows.

1. highlight the section of ear splitting clapping.
2. Effects > Amplitude > Hard Limiting (Process)
3. put the limit somewhere low, something like the max the music gets to
4. hit 'ok' .. you're done!

[Dede2002]

I use CoolEdit Pro to master and use Hard Limiting to reduce peaks. Just highlight the bits that need lowering and then lower them to a level thats more reasonable (basically you limit the loudness of those peaks).

Curious: is there a Hard Limiting feature on Audacity or Sound Studio? 
Thanks in advance,

Sergio

In Adobe Audition I use hard limiting to lower the clapping portion of quiet shows.

1. highlight the section of ear splitting clapping.
2. Effects > Amplitude > Hard Limiting (Process)
3. put the limit somewhere low, something like the max the music gets to
4. hit 'ok' .. you're done!

Thanks 

[morst]

Curious: is there a Hard Limiting feature on Audacity or Sound Studio? 

George Yohng's W1 limiter is a very good hard limiter which works as a VST plugin on audacity. AND It's free! 
http://yohng.com/w1limit.html

[Dede2002]

Curious: is there a Hard Limiting feature on Audacity or Sound Studio? 

George Yohng's W1 limiter is a very good hard limiter which works as a VST plugin on audacity. AND It's free! 
http://yohng.com/w1limit.html

Great!
Thanks 

[boolz]

I'm going to piggyback/hijack/reinvigorate/whatever this discussion because I've got a similar issue, think I've found the solution in this thread, and would like some confirmation and/or redirection. Here's the deal:

I taped a Keb Mo show, and for the most part, the music and audience clapping is appropriately balanced. I set levels to the band and the only place it clips is on audience clapping. That is, on one particular guy clapping. He sat to my immediate right, was significantly taller than me, and was a very percussive clapper, clapping away 2 ft from my mic. Fortunately, for some reason he hardly clapped during the first hour of the show. Unfortunately, once he started, he hardly every stopped for the last hour and a half: random between songs, rhythmic during songs, all of it with much enthusiasm. 

I'm using Audacity and I've got slightly more experience using it than I do taping, but only slightly. Since it's only the one clapper clipping, I'm thinking I'll amplify the whole show within the dynamic range of the music, allowing the clipping. Then use compression to control him during the songs, especially the multiple ones where he was the only one in the entire auditoreum clapping along. Have I got the right idea? Frankly, I'd like to just not hear him at all during the quiet songs, but that isn't possible, is it?

(I did eventually try giving him dirty looks and wincing (silently, of course) and that helped a little. I intend to work more on those skills, but if there's a technical precaution to take in the future, I'd be interested in hearing about it. I'm using an R-09HR.)

[stevetoney]

Some clapping I can take, but when some red-lining brain dead idiot is standing next to my stuff and essentially ruining my sonic enjoyment of the show for the sake of his own pleasure over the course of an hour and a half (disregarding that he's f***ing up the recording) I have to say something.  However, I'm polite and offer up a win-win by asking politely if he'd move someplace else and in exchange I'll send him a free copy of the show at my expense.  Give him your email though...make the onus on him to get back in touch with you, not vice versa.  After all, he's the dumass.

I feel the same way even if I'm not recording...people bringing their own instruments (harmonica's, drums, etc.) into a show is the WORST offense of anything.  If I want to hear shitty playing, I'll record myself...why on earth would I EVER want to hear YOU instead of the band that I paid to hear!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Same thing with those f***ing laser pointers!!!  Once used TOILET PAPER has exactly the same amount of worth as an idiot with a laser pointer.

[stevetoney]

Ahh, what to do with the "pop" clappers. 

Screw software...I vote hiring Bubba to take them back to the woodshed!

[sml42]

I feel the same way even if I'm not recording...people bringing their own instruments (harmonica's, drums, etc.) into a show is the WORST offense of anything.

you're serious?!

I've never experienced that... that is outrageous! Pretty sure I'd say something, via the medium of a clenched fist... crazyness!

[stevetoney]

I feel the same way even if I'm not recording...people bringing their own instruments (harmonica's, drums, etc.) into a show is the WORST offense of anything.

you're serious?!

I've never experienced that... that is outrageous! Pretty sure I'd say something, via the medium of a clenched fist... crazyness!

Absolutely serious!  OK, the drum was only at a festival and I'm pretty sure the dude only brought it for 'between the sets' but even so...people felt the need to bang it because it was there!  Harp has happened two or three times in my experience...I guess cause it's easy to fit in the pocket.  I think generally that kinda stuff gets screened out at the gates, but you know...

[T.J.]

i wanted to post how i am handling the loud claps from a show i taped recently. to some this is probably common knowledge, but i think it can be very helpful to people less skilled with post production stuff. maybe someone can suggest an easier way to accomplish this.

background: i have an acoustic show that was recorded 24/48 in a great sounding venue. musically, the recording peaks around -10dB but the claps in b/w songs hit -2dB. i wanted to bring the overall volume of the music up and eliminate the claps in between songs. fwiw i am using wavelab 5.0. here's what i did:

opened the 24/48 files and toolbox control bar (took me a while to find: View > Contol Bars > Toolbox. there is a little pencil icon that allows you to manually modify the waveform. THIS HAS TO BE DONE WHEN ZOOMED INTO AT LEAST 1:8 RATIO). starting at the beginning of the file i found each clap that was over -10dB. once one is found, i keep the section of the file highlighed and zoom into 1:8. using the pencil tool youcan manually knock down those peaks to where you want them. if you want to do both channels at once simply hold shift before using the pencil tool. i made sure to just edit the loud clapping and LISTEN BACK to what i just did. even though the section i'm editing is less than a second, i can still introduce a click or pop if i'm not careful.

i've made it through about half the recording so far. that section now has a peak of -10dB. in the end i'll have edited A LOT of claps! when i'm finished i hope to eliminate all those claps, i'll add -10dB of gain and go about my post work like i normally would. it's very tedious work but once you get the hang of zooming in and using the pencil tool it gets pretty easy. i hope it pays off in the end

i'd like to hear some feedback about what i'm doing and see if there are other optins to accomplish this.

+T to this thread for the advise.

[Brian Skalinder]

i'd like to hear some feedback about what i'm doing and see if there are other optins to accomplish this.

Are the claps all louder than the music?  If so, I'd use a limiter or compression to knock the clap peaks down en masse, rather than manually editing each clap.

[T.J.]

i'd like to hear some feedback about what i'm doing and see if there are other optins to accomplish this.

Are the claps all louder than the music?  If so, I'd use a limiter or compression to knock the clap peaks down en masse, rather than manually editing each clap.

yes, the claps are louder than the music. the overall volume of the crowd in b/w songs isn't too bad. there is just one "clapper" who was right next to the mics that sticks out when listening back. occasionally the "clapper" causes peaks at the very end of a song. there pretty easy to find and minimize using the method described above.

to be honest i didn't think there would be as many when i began. i thought this was a simple way to get rid of the trouble spots without getting into compression and/or limiters. plus i am worried i may change something i don't want to using the limiter/compression. i have little to no knowledge on how to use both to eliminate the clapping.

question: would i apply either a limiter and/or compression to the whole file at once or just the sections b/w songs with the clapper? i guess i have to search the forums for some explanation on how to use both. i remember being a little overwhelmed when reading about threshholds/attack/release etc...

[T.J.]

okay, the soft knee limiter sounds like a good choice for what i'm trying to accomplish. a little search yielded this info:

I use the soft knee limiter at 12db with the attack, sustain and decay values configured to something like 3ms, 5ms, and 3ms with lookahead enabled.  That will catch the impulses and drop them down with minimal effect on the surrounding music. This should apply to any editing tool that allows configuration of the limiter parameters.

The behavior I see with the usual default settings is that when an impulse is detected, the clap triggers the limiter.  The attack is too slow to apply the complete 12db attenuation to the impulse but then the limiter stays applied long past the impulse.  That affects the sound following the impulse such that the entire selection was affected and there seems to be breathing in the levels.   The default settings cause the affected channel to be lower than the other channel so the entire image shifted toward the untreated channel.  When I zoom and select just the impulse, the attack is so long that it barely affects the clap if at all. 

With the configuration values suggested above, the limiter kicks in quickly and drops away quickly so the surrounding music is hardly affected.  I found this very effective for cleaning up a show in which there was a clapper in one channel that was louder than the music.  I was able to drop her down so that she was about the same volume as the rest of the crowd noise and I operated on just that channel.  With the limiter settings I chose, I could not hear any difference in the average levels of the two channels.  

In the cases where the clapping was after the music, I was able to select a wide area and apply my settings.  However, where the clapping is coincidental with the music, you will need to selectively apply the limiter to the impulses you want to remove.  Otherwise the impulses of the music will be affected too.

To get a feel for this, zoom into the waveform and measure the width of the clap impulse.  You will find that it is a few milliseconds only.   Select about 400 ms centered around the clap and then play with the limiter settings.  You can dail in the settings with a few trials.   Then apply the limiter across a wider selection area.  

If you don't have any presets, you can make your own limiter by graphically adjusting the gain curve.  The default display is a unity gain curve with three points.  drag the endpoints to the desired position.  mouseover the gain curve and drag where you want to add a point.  to make a soft knee limiter, drag the upper right point to the limit you want.  Then drag a couple of points in the center as needed to make a gracefull trasition from the unity curve to your limit value.  

Limiter is at:

Load file
Process>Dynamics>Presets tab

then I chose Preset (-12, soft knee), Switched back to Settings tab, unchecked AUTO, and put in Lil's variables.

i guess when i get home i'll try the preset (-12, soft knee) to a small selection that contains the "clapper." if it sounds good, i'm wondering if i can just apply it to the entire file then add the gain back. i'm afraid it may affect the peaks in the music sections in negative way. if so maybe i'l just apply the limiter to the selection in between the music that has the clapper.

eidt to say: the parts in bold have me a little confused

[Brian Skalinder]

i guess when i get home i'll try the preset (-12, soft knee) to a small selection that contains the "clapper."

LKIJ's settings are a good starting point.  Fast attack, fast release, only a brief lookahead.  As for the threshold, a couple approaches I've used in the past.

Applying compression / limiting to the entire file:

• Over the entire WAV file, find the loudest music level that's adjacent to applause.
• Use the peak level of the loudest music as the threshold for the compressor - this way, no music is compressed (since it's all at or below the threshold), and only applause is impacted (since it rises above the threshold).

This is pretty easy, and takes very little time.  The downside:  it applies the same compression / limiting to all of the applause.  The settings may not be ideal for some sections of applause, but generally works fairly well.

Applying compression / limiting to each individual section of applause:

• For each individual incident of applause that rises above the level of the music, find the loudest music level adjacent (left or right) to the applause.
• Use the peak level of the loudest music as the threshold for the compressor - this way, no music is compressed (since it's all at or below the threshold), and only applause is impacted (since it rises above the threshold).

This takes more time, but provides the flexibility of customizing the compressor / limiter settings for each incident of applause, usually the threshold.

[T.J.]

i was messing around with my recording last night and can't seem to get the limiter to work. i went into dynamics > settings and put in the variables 3ms, 5ms, 3ms, selected lookahead, set my threshold to -5.49dB (the loudest volume of the music) and hit process but nothing seemed to change. I would expect to see my new peak to be -5.49dB. the peak hasn't changed at all, nor has anything on the waveform. i tried using it for both the entire file and then just a selection. the peak remains @ -2.43dB and there are numerous points above -5.49dB. the claps aren't minimized, so i think i'm doing something wrong. i tried using the soft knee limiter (-12) preset and that didn't seem to do anything either. the only thing i didn't change was the graph (which still looks like a straight line @ a 45degree angle), the ratio (1:1), and the normalize option. i tried it both with peak and average volume selected under the advanced tab.

am i missing something? the claps are very brief, so i think my variables are okay. maybe i should try to set my threshold closer to -10dB? even so, nothing was accomplished with my initial settings so i'm confused 

[T.J.]

okay going back through a couple posts on other threads i think i've found the error of my way. i need to set the ratio, right? i guess something aggresive like 20:1 will compress my burst of claps.

a couple more questions:

is it necessary to use the soft knee limiter if you are changing the variables/threshold/ratio? the preset doesn't seem necessary if i am inputing my own values. maybe i'm wrong though.

should i need to mess with the graph if i input my own values?

the peak of the music is generally around -10dB except of one "sing-a-long" spot that reaches -5.49. is it possible to set the threshold @ -10dB? i guess i'll have to try it and figure out.

in the advance settings there is a choice of: peak or average volume (something like that). the default setting has average volume selected. wouldn't i want to select peak or am i looking at this backwards?

sorry for all the questions/hijack. hopefully this is beneficial to others....

[Brian Skalinder]

i need to set the ratio, right? i guess something aggresive like 20:1 will compress my burst of claps.

Yes, you need to set the ratio.  The higher the ratio, the more aggressively the compressor reduces signal that rises above the threshold.

is it necessary to use the soft knee limiter if you are changing the variables/threshold/ratio? the preset doesn't seem necessary if i am inputing my own values. maybe i'm wrong though.

The presets are just that - presets.  Specifying your own settings overrides the presets.  In general, the presets are a nice starting point, but I've always tweaked the settings for my own purposes.  Note you can create your own, custom presets, if you wish.

should i need to mess with the graph if i input my own values?

The graph is just a visual representation of the numeric values.  You can adjust the graph and the app will change the numeric values accordingly, or you can adjust the numeric values and the app will change the graph.

the peak of the music is generally around -10dB except of one "sing-a-long" spot that reaches -5.49. is it possible to set the threshold @ -10dB? i guess i'll have to try it and figure out.

You can set the threshold to whatever value you wish.  In this instance, it may make sense to set the threshold to -10 dB and apply to the whole value.  Alternatively, it may make sense to apply the -10 dB threshold to the WAV both before and after the "sing-along" spot, and then independently apply a compression with a different threshold (-5.49 dB) to just the "sing-along" spot.

in the advance settings there is a choice of: peak or average volume (something like that). the default setting has average volume selected. wouldn't i want to select peak or am i looking at this backwards?

I don't recall this setting, but I'd set it to peak.  Maybe try average as well, to see which you like, but I think peak is what you want in this instance.

[T.J.]

excellent! i knew i was forgetting something. the 1:1 ratio i had it set must have basically compressed my peak to the same exact peak i had prior. i'm going to try it @ 20:1 for now

the peak of the music is generally around -10dB except of one "sing-a-long" spot that reaches -5.49. is it possible to set the threshold @ -10dB? i guess i'll have to try it and figure out.

You can set the threshold to whatever value you wish.  In this instance, it may make sense to set the threshold to -10 dB and apply to the whole value.  Alternatively, it may make sense to apply the -10 dB threshold to the WAV both before and after the "sing-along" spot, and then independently apply a compression with a different threshold (-5.49 dB) to just the "sing-along" spot.

great idea! i wanted to apply the compression to the entire file at once b/c for this particular recording i see no benefit in compressing each individual spot b/w songs. i'm only trying to squash one loud clapper.

i'm going to take the first part of the recording up to the -5.49dB peak and apply -10dB of compression. keep the 2-3 second peak spot free from compression. then apply the -10dB to the rest of the file. hopefully that will give me enough room to boost my levels about 10dB.

Thanks again Brian for advise! +T

i'll let you guys know how it turns out.