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Author Topic: CMC8 with Zoom H2 ... don't know which selection to order  (Read 6559 times)

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Offline Bury420

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CMC8 with Zoom H2 ... don't know which selection to order
« on: February 08, 2009, 06:41:35 AM »
I would like to buy the CMC8 microphones and want to record on my Zoom H2 recorder.

Have found the cmc8 here:

http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-CMC-8

There are so many options. Don't really know what to choose. Mostly used for rock gigs. Bass roll on, roll off? don't know! 4 mics to choose... don't know which to choose.

Battery Box is included here by selection. How long can I use the batteries? Any experiences with that combination?
Looking forward to your answers.
 

Offline fmaderjr

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Re: CMC8 with Zoom H2 ... don't know which selection to order
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2009, 07:42:58 AM »
First of all, if you don't mind somewhat larger capsules, I would consider getting these instead
http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-CMC-4U
The 853's are plenty small enough for me to stealth with, you save $60, and most important in a recent head to head comparison test done on this board between 853's and 943's, everyone who had a preference preferred the sound of the 853's. You could also consider the Church Audio options mentioned in my last paragraph.

Whichever you choose, you will want a battery box which will run at least 500 hours on a 9 volt battery (so you can go line in when recording in loud sound pressure situations and so you will get the full dynamic range the mics offer). You definitely need to be able to line in with the H2 when recording a very loud show-mic in will distort fairly easily. You don't really need the bass roll off-most here feel it's better to remove excess bass in post (if you filter out too much bass when making the recording, it can never be recovered).

You'll also want to add the low sensitivity option with either of these mics.

In general, the cardiod caps are better when you are not close to the stage or stacks, if the sound of the room is not good, or if you want to pick up less of the crowd noise behind you. The omni's are a good choice in good sounding rooms or when close to the source. It never hurts to have both (the SP mics have interchangeable caps, so you don't need to buy 2 complete mics). Also some people here have reported good experiences using hypercardiods in situations where cards are normally used, but I haven't done that myself (have only used hypers when very far away from the source).

For running external mics, the H2 was not a particularly good choice, but it should make fine sounding recordings in most situations. If recording something very loud and you need to set the record levels below 100 (with the sensitivity set to L) to keep the meters from hitting 0 dB, your recording will be clipped because the level control comes after the DAC. If this happens you have 2 choices. Move away from the source until the meters are peaking below 0 dB with the level set to 100 or put an attenuator between the battery box and recorder.
http://www.midi-store.com/M-Audio-MicroTrack-10db-Pad-attenuator-p-17305.html

Instead of the attenuator & battery box you could get a Church Audio ST-9100 preamp which provides 9 volts to the mics and will attenuate as well as amplify. That'd be my choice.
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,79928.0.html
Free shipping this month. And if you've decided you don't need mics as small as the AT943, you could save even more money by buying your mics from Chris Church as well. You can get either the CA-14 cards or omni's for $99 with free shipping this month or get them in a package with the ST-9100. They are great mics, comparable to the SP ones, much cheaper, and you don't need to pay extra for low sensitivity. Only downside is they don't have interchangeable caps (his ST-11's do and also sound great, but sound wise they are not quite on the level of his ST-14's).
« Last Edit: February 08, 2009, 04:05:57 PM by fmaderjr »
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Offline Bury420

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Re: CMC8 with Zoom H2 ... don't know which selection to order
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2009, 08:10:05 AM »
thanks for your help. Unfortunately I want to put the mics via tape to glasses. So they should be as small as possible. Had the H2 to make recordings without external mics. Result is crap :-) So I would like to upgrade via new mics, wouldn't have to much of a problem with buying a new storage device.

All should be as small as possible and if possible I don't want to change minidiscs or stuff like that during the recording. With the H2 I got a SD card.

It's totalöly different, some times I am near the stage, some times I am sitting somwhere far away.

My problem is I am really not to much into that stuff so I don't know barely anything :)


Offline fmaderjr

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Re: CMC8 with Zoom H2 ... don't know which selection to order
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2009, 08:23:00 AM »
The 943's are good mics and fairly small, so they should work for you.

NOTE-Your recorder is not just a storage device. If it were the H2 would be fine. Besides storing the recording, it includes hardware for preamplification, analog to digital conversion, etc. The biggest problem with the H2 for external mics is that the only the L/M/H switches affect the level of the signal before it reaches the DAC.

I used mics on glasses for years. When I started hiding them inside the folded up inside liner of a baseball hat, I never looked back. With a proper hat, even a large mini-mic like the ST-14 will fit inconspicuouly. You could consider that. Otherwise we'd better wait until others chime in with their input.
AT853's (all caps)/CM-300 Franken Naks (CP-1,2,3)/JBMod Nak 700's (CP-701,702) > Tascam DR-680
Or Sonic Studios DSM-6 > M10

Offline Bury420

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Re: CMC8 with Zoom H2 ... don't know which selection to order
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2009, 08:57:19 AM »
OK, sounds like I should get rid off the H2 ... I am doing already ;)

Many people are using the MZ-RH1 ... how long does the akku of the MD recorder work for recording? How long can I record on one md?

Ok you convinced me..... Cap looks better for hiding the mics so i'll probably do that. That's something I can decide individually when I got the recommanded mics.

Version 1:
853
M-Audio MicroTrack 10db
MZ-RH1

Version 2:
853
M-Audio MicroTrack 10db
ST-9100 preamp
Zoom H2

Is that correct? Anything else needed?

If version 2 would be much worse than version 1 i would sell the H2 probably.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2009, 08:59:01 AM by Bury420 »

nameloc01

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Re: CMC8 with Zoom H2 ... don't know which selection to order
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2009, 10:13:41 AM »

Version 1 will make superior recordings. Also...you should talk to Chris...SP Chris..about powering those mice before you make any decisions.

Offline Bury420

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Re: CMC8 with Zoom H2 ... don't know which selection to order
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2009, 12:12:43 PM »
Somehow I don't want ro record on Minidisc. Then I would prefer the Edirol R09HR.

So if I take the 853 or CMC8 and the M-Audio MicroTrack 10db between the Edirol R09HR, is a battery box necessary?

I would also have the problem with the minixlr input if i buy the church preampas well!? How big is it?


Offline fmaderjr

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Re: CMC8 with Zoom H2 ... don't know which selection to order
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2009, 01:25:05 PM »
Someone else can answer the first Q-I don't have an 09HR.

You can get the ST-9100 with a 1/8 mini-jack input instead of mini-xlr's. It's not very big (about the size of a pack of cigarettes).

Some people are going to recommend Church Audio's much smaller UGLY preamp. I'm a huge fan of Chris Church's stuff, but I love the ST-9100 and don't get the UGLY at all. The ST-9100 is still quite small by my standards and has an easy to use level control. You need a mini screwdriver to change the UGLY's 2 separate level controls-almost impossible to do while stealthing. To me the UGLY is not good for stealth despite its size except if you know before hand what levels you will need (such as acoustic where you can just preset it to full gain). This is not meant as a criticism of Chris. Lots of people here have raved about the UGLY. He is just building an option that many people seem to want and which does what it is designed to do perfectly. I just don't get many tapersection members desire for unnecessarily (IMO) small equipment for stealthing. I can easily stealth with AT853's or Chris' own CA-14 plus a ST-9100 and nobody will have a clue I'm taping.

I've got an unused UGLY (newest model) sitting around that I'd let go for Chris' price of $139 shipped if you want to go in that direction and if you want to get it a lot faster than Chris could make you a new one.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2009, 03:48:12 PM by fmaderjr »
AT853's (all caps)/CM-300 Franken Naks (CP-1,2,3)/JBMod Nak 700's (CP-701,702) > Tascam DR-680
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nameloc01

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Re: CMC8 with Zoom H2 ... don't know which selection to order
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2009, 02:25:03 PM »
I have a basically brand new set of 8532s for sale in the Yardsale section. They would run your mice and then go right into your deck.

nameloc01

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Re: CMC8 with Zoom H2 ... don't know which selection to order
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2009, 02:26:21 PM »

Actually they won't power mice
..but they will run the mics.

Offline Javier Cinakowski

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Re: CMC8 with Zoom H2 ... don't know which selection to order
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2009, 02:54:17 PM »
fmaderjr deserves a few +T's  !   Great, helpful posts!

If I was Bury420 I would consider buying the mice powering boxes that nameloc01 has for sale.  They can handle the loudest concerts you will ever attend.

AT943 is a good choice because you can always use the bigger 853 capsules (with adapter) when you do not need to stealth.....


Good luck!
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nameloc01

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Re: CMC8 with Zoom H2 ... don't know which selection to order
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2009, 03:59:11 PM »

The only problem is when the mice start chewing the cables.

Offline Bury420

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Re: CMC8 with Zoom H2 ... don't know which selection to order
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2009, 03:05:21 AM »
fmaderjr deserves a few +T's  !   

AT943 is a good choice because you can always use the bigger 853 capsules (with adapter) when you do not need to stealth.....

he definitely deserves T's... the way he answers questions is absolutely great. T's to anyone else helping me. You're really kind people here.

So now I got the choice:

853 / AT943 diiference (?) ==>  The ST-9100 ==>  R09-HR
853 / AT943 ==> 8532 ==> R09-HR (anything else needed for this set?)

Which changes need to be made by the slots because of the 1/8 and MiniXRL difefernce?

Offline Javier Cinakowski

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Re: CMC8 with Zoom H2 ... don't know which selection to order
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2009, 11:14:56 AM »
nameloc01s power box is a nice option, don't rule that out...

But, I would go with the following:

AT943 -> Church Audio 9100 -> R09-HR

I would have the 943's terminated in mini-xlr's and get the 9100 in mini-xlr version...
mini-xlr is a better, locking connector and as nameloc01 will tell you, they perform better this way....
The only down side to the mini-xlr is you cannot go directly into the R09-HR with that connector.  THis might be a stealth concern....

Get the small capsules that come with the 943 to start with.   Then perhaps later you can buy the bigger 853 and adapters if you want a fatter sound in a non-stealthy situation....
Neumann KM185mp OR DPA ST2015-> Grace Design Lunatec V2-> Tascam DR-100mkIII

nameloc01

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Re: CMC8 with Zoom H2 ... don't know which selection to order
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2009, 03:51:45 PM »

Good advise from Javier. The Church pre would be probably better for you right now seeing as how its only one boxes instead of two and you'll have the the extra gain at your disposal if needed. By all means have them terminated mini-xlr...not single male mini and order the pre accordingly. I only offered the boxes because I think I have them priced good.
Also..when you order the mics...get them with the Shure rotating clips..those are the best ones for using those mics in a non-sanctioned recording situation.
Good luck
J

Offline SmokinJoe

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Re: CMC8 with Zoom H2 ... don't know which selection to order
« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2009, 10:10:03 PM »
I haven't used an H2, but I would think AT853s (CMC4) > battery box > line in should work fine without brickwalling.  That's how I generally run with my R09.  If you just bought the H2 and can return it to the store for a full refund, maybe it's a good idea to do that and buy the R09HR.  If you can't return the H2, and you have to try to sell it at a loss, I would try it before I declared it problematic.

Don't wait until you go to the $200 Rolling Stones show to try it... try it at some local bar.

Mics: Schoeps MK4 & CMC5's / Gefell M200's & M210's / ADK-TL / DPA4061's
Pres: V3 / ST9100
Decks: Oade Concert Mod R4Pro / R09 / R05
Photo: Nikon D700's, 2.8 Zooms, and Zeiss primes
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Offline su6oxone

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Re: CMC8 with Zoom H2 ... don't know which selection to order
« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2009, 10:35:11 PM »
There are so many options. Don't really know what to choose. Mostly used for rock gigs. Bass roll on, roll off? don't know! 4 mics to choose... don't know which to choose.

Battery Box is included here by selection. How long can I use the batteries? Any experiences with that combination?
Looking forward to your answers.

Church Audio CA-11 are probably the best affordable stealth mics, but if going the Audio Technica route, remember to get the 'low sensitivity' option (or else you will get distortion at loud concerts).  Both the AT853s and the CA-11s can fit in the 'taper hat' that SP sells... which is by far the easiest way to s****th.  The battery box will be fine to power the mics, or the Church CA-9100 preamp will do the job even better.  Both will last for some 20+ hours with a standard 9V battery.  I ran the 853 > 9100 > R09 for awhile and was pretty happy with the results. 

Offline Javier Cinakowski

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Re: CMC8 with Zoom H2 ... don't know which selection to order
« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2009, 08:22:55 AM »
Just an FYI:

If getting the Audio Technica mics in mini-xlr, the "low sensativity mod" is not required.    Only for 1/8" is it helpful....
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Offline Bury420

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Re: CMC8 with Zoom H2 ... don't know which selection to order
« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2009, 10:02:24 AM »
pretty sure I will take the CA-9100 and only 1/8 sockets and the low sensitive mode on my mices. Only thing I don't know yet is which mices to use. Everyone got his own favorites :)

853, 943, CA-11, CA-14 .... :)

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Re: CMC8 with Zoom H2 ... don't know which selection to order
« Reply #19 on: February 10, 2009, 10:20:44 AM »
pretty sure I will take the CA-9100 and only 1/8 sockets and the low sensitive mode on my mices. Only thing I don't know yet is which mices to use. Everyone got his own favorites :)

853, 943, CA-11, CA-14 .... :)

I own them all accept the CA-11's.  I hate this hobby as it's too hard to decide on a favorite.  :P
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nameloc01

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Re: CMC8 with Zoom H2 ... don't know which selection to order
« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2009, 10:44:29 AM »
FYI....the mice like full sensitivity

Offline SmokinJoe

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Re: CMC8 with Zoom H2 ... don't know which selection to order
« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2009, 11:19:13 AM »
Go listen to the comparisons here, and let your ears decide for you.
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,115294.0.html

My guess is that you will like the CA14's, and there is a pair in the yard sale for about $99.
I did a comp this summer at Mountain Jam with CA14's and CA11's.  To make a long story short, they sound quite similar, but the CA14's are a little sweeter.
Mics: Schoeps MK4 & CMC5's / Gefell M200's & M210's / ADK-TL / DPA4061's
Pres: V3 / ST9100
Decks: Oade Concert Mod R4Pro / R09 / R05
Photo: Nikon D700's, 2.8 Zooms, and Zeiss primes
Playback: Raspberry Pi > Modi2 Uber > Magni2 > HD650

Offline Bury420

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Re: CMC8 with Zoom H2 ... don't know which selection to order
« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2009, 02:19:12 PM »
Ok, love the CMC 8 result. Easiest and fastest way would to order it with the SPSB8 or is there anything speaking against this combi?

CMC8 ==> SPSB8 ==> R09HR

Problem is I need the stuff until March 1st and they need to be shipped to Germany.

Offline fmaderjr

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Re: CMC8 with Zoom H2 ... don't know which selection to order
« Reply #23 on: February 10, 2009, 02:37:35 PM »
That'd make great recordings of moderately loud to very loud material I'm sure and you could always order a CA-9100 later if you think you'd like to try out a great preamp. If you ordered a CA-9100 now, unless Chris agreed to expedite it, you'd never get it by 3/1.

If you ever wanted to record acoustic stuff, having the preamp would be a big plus. The low sensitivity mod you're going to order will cost you around 10 dB of gain (but is necessary when recording very loud material). Though if you don't get a preamp, I guess you could just go mic in for acoustic.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2009, 02:41:04 PM by fmaderjr »
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Offline Bury420

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Re: CMC8 with Zoom H2 ... don't know which selection to order
« Reply #24 on: February 10, 2009, 03:11:18 PM »
Sounds good to me. Yeah I will record 95 % loud stuff.

That's what I will do probably. Order will be placed in bout 2-3 hours. Hope I won't change the decision again :) But it's very expensive, gotta think about it really good.

Offline Bury420

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Re: CMC8 with Zoom H2 ... don't know which selection to order
« Reply #25 on: February 11, 2009, 02:34:46 AM »
ok, what I've done:

- ordered the CMC 8 plus SPSB8

I will first try recording on the Zoom H2. If the results are as bad as everybody is saying (I think so because everybody is saying it) I will buy the Edirol R09RH as well. I'll try it first.

I still can order the CA-9100 afterwards if needed.

Thank you ALL very much for your help. Really nice how everybody's helping here!

Offline SmokinJoe

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Re: CMC8 with Zoom H2 ... don't know which selection to order
« Reply #26 on: February 11, 2009, 02:48:49 AM »
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,116380.0.html

If that falls through timewise, consider the mics above.  There are lots of schematics on the web for making a battery box, and if you don't solder, you can probably find a buddy who does.
Mics: Schoeps MK4 & CMC5's / Gefell M200's & M210's / ADK-TL / DPA4061's
Pres: V3 / ST9100
Decks: Oade Concert Mod R4Pro / R09 / R05
Photo: Nikon D700's, 2.8 Zooms, and Zeiss primes
Playback: Raspberry Pi > Modi2 Uber > Magni2 > HD650

Offline fmaderjr

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Re: CMC8 with Zoom H2 ... don't know which selection to order
« Reply #27 on: February 11, 2009, 07:01:58 AM »
I will first try recording on the Zoom H2. If the results are as bad as everybody is saying (I think so because everybody is saying it) I will buy the Edirol R09RH as well. I'll try it first.

If the Zoom doesn't distort, the recording will probably sound quite good. However, when recording extremely loud sources without a means of attenuating the signal (such using a CA-9100 preamp instead of a battery box), you could run into major distortion issues. Set the H2 to low and keep the level at 100. That way, if your meters are going over 0 dB you will know you are distorting. Then you can move away from the source and see if you can find a spot where the meters are peaking below 0 dB.

With a CA-9100 (or maybe even with just the MT 10 dB attenuator + battery box) you probably could make reliable recordings that sound quite good, but it would still be preferable to step up to an R09HR when you can.
AT853's (all caps)/CM-300 Franken Naks (CP-1,2,3)/JBMod Nak 700's (CP-701,702) > Tascam DR-680
Or Sonic Studios DSM-6 > M10

Offline Bury420

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Re: CMC8 with Zoom H2 ... don't know which selection to order
« Reply #28 on: February 17, 2009, 03:22:23 PM »
ok just couldn't let it be. My Edirol is here now.

SP stuff will arrive tommorrow. :)

Offline SmokinJoe

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Re: CMC8 with Zoom H2 ... don't know which selection to order
« Reply #29 on: February 17, 2009, 04:12:26 PM »
Good! Now go practice at a loud local bar before you go to that big show in a couple of weeks.
Mics: Schoeps MK4 & CMC5's / Gefell M200's & M210's / ADK-TL / DPA4061's
Pres: V3 / ST9100
Decks: Oade Concert Mod R4Pro / R09 / R05
Photo: Nikon D700's, 2.8 Zooms, and Zeiss primes
Playback: Raspberry Pi > Modi2 Uber > Magni2 > HD650

Offline Bury420

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Re: CMC8 with Zoom H2 ... don't know which selection to order
« Reply #30 on: March 02, 2009, 11:38:28 AM »
1st try. changed the input level 2 times as you can hear

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« Last Edit: March 02, 2009, 03:14:23 PM by Bury420 »

Offline fmaderjr

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Re: CMC8 with Zoom H2 ... don't know which selection to order
« Reply #31 on: March 02, 2009, 01:45:52 PM »
It sounds OK to me, but the wave form looks terrible-I'm surprised there isn't audible clipping. Were you using a limiter? Kind of looks like the wave forms a friend of mine use to get recording loud concerts using auto level on a Mini-Disc recorder.

Next time, record in 24 bit try to get your levels to peak around -12 dB. Then you can boost in post without adding noise but you will maintain headroom to minimize the chance of clipping or compressiing the wave form if a limiter was involved.
AT853's (all caps)/CM-300 Franken Naks (CP-1,2,3)/JBMod Nak 700's (CP-701,702) > Tascam DR-680
Or Sonic Studios DSM-6 > M10

Offline Bury420

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Re: CMC8 with Zoom H2 ... don't know which selection to order
« Reply #32 on: March 02, 2009, 01:55:31 PM »
it's not the master. I changed some settings in Izotope RX. That should be the problem.

nameloc01

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Re: CMC8 with Zoom H2 ... don't know which selection to order
« Reply #33 on: March 02, 2009, 04:37:33 PM »
The most important piece advise was overlooked....take a THOROUGH piss before hitting record.

Offline Bury420

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Re: CMC8 with Zoom H2 ... don't know which selection to order
« Reply #34 on: March 02, 2009, 04:54:32 PM »
I recorderin 24 bit and no limiter was used.

Offline fmaderjr

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Re: CMC8 with Zoom H2 ... don't know which selection to order
« Reply #35 on: March 02, 2009, 05:12:30 PM »
That's more like it! Sounds good and looks good.

Wish I could have done as well my first time out.

Watch ut for that Rx until you learn how to use it-it really did a job on your first sample.

AT853's (all caps)/CM-300 Franken Naks (CP-1,2,3)/JBMod Nak 700's (CP-701,702) > Tascam DR-680
Or Sonic Studios DSM-6 > M10

Offline Bury420

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Re: CMC8 with Zoom H2 ... don't know which selection to order
« Reply #36 on: March 11, 2009, 04:30:25 PM »
do you like the result?

http://rapidshare.com/files/208091308/wavekomplett02.mp3

Should I put the db down a bit?

This is a song with pretty much bass...

Offline fmaderjr

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Re: CMC8 with Zoom H2 ... don't know which selection to order
« Reply #37 on: March 11, 2009, 07:02:53 PM »
Sounds great to me!

Lowering the dB can't do anything to improve the sound. Raising it too much can hurt the sound if it causes clipping, but once that happens, if the clipped file has been saved, lowering it back won't remove the clipping.

If you mean should you lower the dB of the bass, it sounds fine to me the way it is, but that's a personal decision.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2009, 07:14:57 PM by fmaderjr »
AT853's (all caps)/CM-300 Franken Naks (CP-1,2,3)/JBMod Nak 700's (CP-701,702) > Tascam DR-680
Or Sonic Studios DSM-6 > M10

 

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