Topic: Tape Hiss Help?

[DMBprez]

Hi,

Tonight I ran my new mics (AT 4041's) into my UA5 and then into my new iRiver.  I have a few questions:

1) First off, my iRiver is rockboxed and the levels going into it were SUPER LOW.  I had my UA5 cranked all the way up at one point, and it was not even half way.  Any ideas behind this?

2) Because the levels were so low, I got home and the recording was SUPER quiet.  Therefore, I added like 30db of gain.  When I add the gain and listen to the recording, it sounds okay. But when I export it as a wav and open it back up, it has a terrible hissing noise.

3) Now, the UA5 I have sometimes has hissing problems if you have the levels up too high on one channel, so I don't really know if this is from adding the gain (which I believe it is, because only after I save the file do I have this problem) or because of the UA5.

Would an MP3 help you guys?  Let me know.  Any help is greatly appreciated.


Best,
Chris

[su6oxone]

Dunno about your specific situation, but SoundForge has a nice plug-in you might want to check out called Express FX Audio Restoration that worked wonders with one tape that I had that also had a lot of hiss after normalizing.

[DMBprez]

Thanks, Sub.  I will try that out.


Does anyone think that the hiss could be because of the amount of gain I added?  It was closer to 40db, the recording was almost none existent in some sports...

[su6oxone]

Does anyone think that the hiss could be because of the amount of gain I added?  It was closer to 40db, the recording was almost none existent in some sports...

Most likely the huge level raising resulted in the hiss.  The noise floor will also raise when you raise levels in post, and especially when you're recording 16-bit (iRiver).  Everyone should have a 24-bit recorder. 

[DMBprez]

I'm just trying to figure out why my levels were so low in the first place.  I ran line-in into my iRiver from my UA5, would running optical in change anything?

[Brian Skalinder]

I'm just trying to figure out why my levels were so low in the first place.  I ran line-in into my iRiver from my UA5, would running optical in change anything?

Yes:  run optical-in on the iRiver to avoid this problem in the future.

It's been a while, but if memory serves...the UA5 also has a control for manipulating the analog-output level ("Output" knob, maybe?).  So while your preamp gain might have been high, the output level was probably low, resulting in overall very low output levels.

As for hiss when you turn up the gain on the UA5...yes, a stock UA5 will exhibit noticeable hiss with very high gain.  But running optical-out on the UA5 / optical-in on the iRiver, you should only run into this challenge if recording very quiet sources.

[Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B)]

Pretty sure the headphone volume also controls the RCA outs on the UA5.

But if you just run the optical you should be good to go.

I would set up your rig and test all of this before your next time out.

[DMBprez]

Can anyone point me in the direction of the cable I need to run from my UA5 to my iRiver?  I gave mine away thinking I no longer needed it 

[Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B)]

This is what you need:

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10229&cs_id=1022902&p_id=1556&seq=1&format=2

Unless you want to run your JB3 50 feet from the UA5, in which case this will do  :

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10229&cs_id=1022902&p_id=2835&seq=1&format=2

[runonce]

I'm just trying to figure out why my levels were so low in the first place.  I ran line-in into my iRiver from my UA5, would running optical in change anything?

Because you eliminate all the noise on the analog side of the H120.

[runonce]

Does anyone think that the hiss could be because of the amount of gain I added?  It was closer to 40db, the recording was almost none existent in some sports...

Most likely the huge level raising resulted in the hiss.  The noise floor will also raise when you raise levels in post, and especially when you're recording 16-bit (iRiver).  Everyone should have a 24-bit recorder. 

While that may be true - it doesnt really apply here - not truly a bit depth issue.

It wont matter how many bits you have if you dont have your gear set up properly.

[anonymous_user]

Dunno about your specific situation, but SoundForge has a nice plug-in you might want to check out called Express FX Audio Restoration that worked wonders with one tape that I had that also had a lot of hiss after normalizing.

I stopped using those automated de-hiss tools probably back in the 90's. They do a lot more harm than good, they create a small sort of underwater-sounding, crystal-y type audio effect. It's slight, and isn't noticable on all audio systems, but it's there. If you hear it once on a given recording or a given playback system then it's usually enough to pick it out on other recordings and other playback systems, and is probably enough to never want to do it again. I would just use slight EQ to get rid of hiss, which in my opinion works better anyway.


To the original poster, yes, posting a short wav clip of your set might help. Some users might give it a shot and post back a sample of their results, which I've seen around here from time to time. If it works out alright, they might post the specific settings they used so you can replicate it.

If you say you can actually boost the volume and not hear any hiss on playback, then 'export' to a wav file with the same volume and all of a sudden the hiss appears out of nowhere, even though the volume isn't changing from the previous playback, then yes that would be quite strange. I can't imagine that's the case, but if so, play it back when the volume is already raised and it doesn't have hiss, and try using the windows "what you hear" setting to record a clip to a seperate wav file. Then save your original one when the hiss gets added, and you'll have 2 files; compare that against the 'what you hear' wav clip which is after boosting but before exporting, and if they're really both at the same volume, one with hiss and one without, then you know there's a problem that occurs when you export to a new file. I would guess you're mistaken and the hiss gets added after any initial volume boosting, not just from simply exporting/saving, but maybe it's worth a try.

[runonce]

Try Audacitys noise reduction tool - it worked well on cassettes - just make sure to use the minimal reduction setting...

And you really need to have a section of just the hiss to make it work...(ie no music)

[runonce]

Dunno about your specific situation, but SoundForge has a nice plug-in you might want to check out called Express FX Audio Restoration that worked wonders with one tape that I had that also had a lot of hiss after normalizing.

I stopped using those automated de-hiss tools probably back in the 90's. They do a lot more harm than good, they create a small sort of underwater-sounding, crystal-y type audio effect. It's slight, and isn't noticable on all audio systems, but it's there. If you hear it once on a given recording or a given playback system then it's usually enough to pick it out on other recordings and other playback systems, and is probably enough to never want to do it again. I would just use slight EQ to get rid of hiss, which in my opinion works better anyway.


To the original poster, yes, posting a short wav clip of your set might help. Some users might give it a shot and post back a sample of their results, which I've seen around here from time to time. If it works out alright, they might post the specific settings they used so you can replicate it.

If you say you can actually boost the volume and not hear any hiss on playback, then 'export' to a wav file with the same volume and all of a sudden the hiss appears out of nowhere, even though the volume isn't changing from the previous playback, then yes that would be quite strange. I can't imagine that's the case, but if so, play it back when the volume is already raised and it doesn't have hiss, and try using the windows "what you hear" setting to record a clip to a seperate wav file. Then save your original one when the hiss gets added, and you'll have 2 files; compare that against the 'what you hear' wav clip which is after boosting but before exporting, and if they're really both at the same volume, one with hiss and one without, then you know there's a problem that occurs when you export to a new file. I would guess you're mistaken and the hiss gets added after any initial volume boosting, not just from simply exporting/saving, but maybe it's worth a try.

I think DAW software has improved -a TINY bit- since the 90s...

The hiss is mastered into the recording...not being added in post.

Pretty obvious he didnt have his rig gained out correctly - and ended up with a nice recording of the self noise from his UA5 + H120

[DMBprez]

Okay,

There is no option for me to run optical in on my iRiver... are we sure I can do this?

If I can't what else can I do about this?  My levels are entirely too low. 



I am working on a sample, if any of you would like to take a whack at it and let me know what you did, I would be forever grateful.  Both of the other tapers there last night had rig issues, so I might be the only complete tape.

Samples coming, I will post the original (no gain at all) and the one that I added gain.

Thanks so much again.

[runonce]

Okay,

There is no option for me to run optical in on my iRiver... are we sure I can do this?

If I can't what else can I do about this?  My levels are entirely too low. 



I am working on a sample, if any of you would like to take a whack at it and let me know what you did, I would be forever grateful.  Both of the other tapers there last night had rig issues, so I might be the only complete tape.

Samples coming, I will post the original (no gain at all) and the one that I added gain.

Thanks so much again.

Almost certain the 120 has toslink I/O Edit; on re-read, I see you dont mention what model of iriver you are using...that would be helpful info

Pretty sure you just need a toslink cable with a mini-1/8 shaped jeck on one end (the UA5 end is square)

[DMBprez]

Samples:

Clip (no gain)
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=RS1IQI1B

Clip (w/ 30db of gain)
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=QH3TNN03



Thanks again, everyone.

[DMBprez]

Sorry, I'm running the h320.

[runonce]

Sorry, I'm running the h320.

Ok - forget the advice about the optical cable...no dig in on the 320.

When you had you levels on the UA5 cranked...were you getting the peak lights to come on at all...?

You sort of want to get the UA5 levels set a certain way - regardless of what you connect to it...you surely dont want to use it to drive the gain stage on a downstream device...

Are you certain your batteries on the UA5 were up to snuff for the new mics? Starting to wonder about power at this point...

Using digital out, the UA5  (when getting low on power) will just conk out on the optical jack....but running analog might result in a slow decay in sound...and a high noise floor as your phantom faded to nothing...(and no peak lights)

[anonymous_user]

I think DAW software has improved -a TINY bit- since the 90s...

No, not necessarily. Late 90's, and most software that's out now has already been around for at least 3 years or more. What I said still applies to the same tools found in Audition 3.0 etc and similar software. They haven't changed much in 5, 7, 10 years, especially with something basic like that. If they could change it that easily then I think it wouldn't have been that way in the first place. You can use minimal settings to try to reduce it, but the slight side effects are still there. And if you catch it, then it becomes obvious and hard to avoid hearing it. I'm sure it can be useful in some situations for some people, however I'm just speaking from personal experience and also from what I've picked up from others over the years.

[runonce]

I think DAW software has improved -a TINY bit- since the 90s...

No, not necessarily. Late 90's, and most software that's out now has already been around for at least 3 years or more. What I said still applies to the same tools found in Audition 3.0 etc and similar software. They haven't changed much in 5, 7, 10 years, especially with something basic like that. If they could change it that easily then I think it wouldn't have been that way in the first place. You can use minimal settings to try to reduce it, but the slight side effects are still there. And if you catch it, then it becomes obvious and hard to avoid hearing it. I'm sure it can be useful in some situations for some people, however I'm just speaking from personal experience and also from what I've picked up from others over the years.

Im familiar with the effect you mentioned earlier...And the Audacity tool will also sound "tinkley" if used too aggressively. Use the "least" setting and work from there.

[DMBprez]

Sorry, I'm running the h320.

Ok - forget the advice about the optical cable...no dig in on the 320.

When you had you levels on the UA5 cranked...were you getting the peak lights to come on at all...?

You sort of want to get the UA5 levels set a certain way - regardless of what you connect to it...you surely dont want to use it to drive the gain stage on a downstream device...

Are you certain your batteries on the UA5 were up to snuff for the new mics? Starting to wonder about power at this point...

Using digital out, the UA5  (when getting low on power) will just conk out on the optical jack....but running analog might result in a slow decay in sound...and a high noise floor as your phantom faded to nothing...(and no peak lights)

I am running the wally batteries for the UA5 and using the 48V phantom power button.  Is that wrong?  My buddy also had a problem with low levels, too and he ran C4's>UA5>iRiver.  I honestly think it might the iRiver, because I have never had any problems running the c4's with the UA5.  His tape, there were low levels, but he put gain on them and it seemed to be okay.  I'll double check. 

[DMBprez]

I was just playing around with a guitar and the mics, and I turned a bunch of gain on the recorder (I had 0 gain on the recorder last night, because I thought that is what I wanted) and turned the UA5 down.  I am going to see if the hiss still exists....

[DMBprez]

Yes,

Still a bunch of hiss.  So this is what I think, I have ruled out the UA5, right?  I turned the levels down, and added gain on the recorder, still a bunch of hiss.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

What exact knob settings are you running on the ua5?

[DMBprez]

What exact knob settings are you running on the ua5?

I only mess with the Sens ones.   The output know was way down, but I don't think that.. would make a difference, right?  That's for headphones, isn't it? Sample rate is 44.8. Rec source is pressed in (digital). Lo-z.
Sens knobs are at ~3/4

[it-goes-to-eleven]

What exact knob settings are you running on the ua5?

I only mess with the Sens ones.   The output know was way down, but I don't think that.. would make a difference, right?  That's for headphones, isn't it? Sample rate is 44.8. Rec source is pressed in (digital). Lo-z.
Sens knobs are at ~3/4

The output was too low, but you didn't think turning the output knob up would help?

1. read the owner's manual for your gear.
2. understand the proper operation of your gear.
3. verify correct operation of all devices by testing at home.

[DMBprez]

What exact knob settings are you running on the ua5?

I only mess with the Sens ones.   The output know was way down, but I don't think that.. would make a difference, right?  That's for headphones, isn't it? Sample rate is 44.8. Rec source is pressed in (digital). Lo-z.
Sens knobs are at ~3/4

The output was too low, but you didn't think turning the output knob up would help?

1. read the owner's manual for your gear.
2. understand the proper operation of your gear.
3. verify correct operation of all devices by testing at home.

OMG, Kanye!

Thanks for the help.  Sorry you had to make me look like a dumbass.  In all fairness though, I didn't get a user manual =)  And have never had problems with my UA5.



Now, anyone willing to take a wack at the hissing?  Or have any idea of what I can do? =(

[kirk97132]

What exact knob settings are you running on the ua5?

I only mess with the Sens ones.   The output know was way down, but I don't think that.. would make a difference, right?  That's for headphones, isn't it? Sample rate is 44.8. Rec source is pressed in (digital). Lo-z.
Sens knobs are at ~3/4

The output was too low, but you didn't think turning the output knob up would help?

1. read the owner's manual for your gear.
2. understand the proper operation of your gear.
3. verify correct operation of all devices by testing at home.

X2

Come on did you even try to find the manual to read it?
Search function is your friend and try reading the stickies like this one:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=14389.0

[Cheesecadet]

Do you have an iriver h120?  If so, the line in doubles as an optical in jack.  That would be the way to go.

[runonce]

Sorry, I'm running the h320.

Ok - forget the advice about the optical cable...no dig in on the 320.

When you had you levels on the UA5 cranked...were you getting the peak lights to come on at all...?

You sort of want to get the UA5 levels set a certain way - regardless of what you connect to it...you surely dont want to use it to drive the gain stage on a downstream device...

Are you certain your batteries on the UA5 were up to snuff for the new mics? Starting to wonder about power at this point...

Using digital out, the UA5  (when getting low on power) will just conk out on the optical jack....but running analog might result in a slow decay in sound...and a high noise floor as your phantom faded to nothing...(and no peak lights)

I am running the wally batteries for the UA5 and using the 48V phantom power button.  Is that wrong?  My buddy also had a problem with low levels, too and he ran C4's>UA5>iRiver.  I honestly think it might the iRiver, because I have never had any problems running the c4's with the UA5.  His tape, there were low levels, but he put gain on them and it seemed to be okay.  I'll double check.

No thats fine...what about the peak lights..? were you getting peaks when  you had it "cranked"?

...thats your best indicator as to whats happening on the UA5 side...

[DMBprez]

Yes,

I got the peak light to light up when it was cranked.  It seems everything is fixed though.  I am fairly confident it was the amount of post gain I had to add that made it so hissy. 

I just ran a track with a guitar and the output knob turned up more, I think all is okay =)  I'll find out tomorrow though.

And I'm not blaming anyone but myself.  But, you win some, you lose some.  Thanks for your help.

Again, if anyone is willing to take a whack at those samples on the previous page, I would be forever grateful.  As I said, I was the only working rig that night.


Best,
Chris

[runonce]

Yes,

I got the peak light to light up when it was cranked.  It seems everything is fixed though.  I am fairly confident it was the amount of post gain I had to add that made it so hissy. 



Best,
Chris

Yes and no...you had to have low levels - (and a bad S/N ratio to start with)...that ratio stays the same no matter how much gain you add...so boosting the level boosts EVERYTHING.

No different form the effect of cranking it up on your stereo...you'll hear the same hiss...

Adding gain in post didnt add hiss...it was already there.

You need to find the "unity" gain setting on the 320...set it there, and let the UA5 do the rest.

As far as the UA5 - you want that peak light to come on occasionally...if it isnt coming on...I dont see how you can have any idea what your levels actually are...
If its only coming on at really  high levels...you are recording some really quiet music or something is screwed up elsewhere...

[Brian Skalinder]

A bit more detail on how to run next time...

• Set the UA5 to 24-bit / 96 Hz (or 48 kHz, or whichever sample rate you find sounds best...if you can tell; if you can't tell, just pick one).
• You'll have to set your levels twice:  once on the UA5, once on the iRiver.  This is because both the UA5 and iRiver are performing digital-to-analog conversion, and anytime we perform analog-to-digital conversion we want to maximize our signal:noise ratio by setting levels properly.
• Set your levels on the UA5 using the SENS knobs.  Unfortunately, you can't use the level meters on the iRiver to set the levels on the UA5.  You'll have to use the single PEAK light on the UA5.  If memory serves, the PEAK LED starts lighting up at -3 dBFS.  So if the light flashes, back off enough so that it's no longer flashing.  This will provide sufficient headroom for unexpected peaks.  (Since you're running the UA5's ADC at 24-bit, close counts -- no need to push your levels to as close to 0 dBFS as possible.)
• Set the iRiver to unity gain, as someone mentioned previously.  It might be 0 dB on the iRiver Rockbox scale, but it's been a while since I've used my iRiver for recording.
• Set the iRiver levels using the UA5's OUTPUT knob.  Aim for as close to 0 dBFS as you can get, while preserving enough headroom to prevent clipping.
• You might want to turn the UA5's MONITOR VOLUME knob all the way down...I have a vague recollection this can impact the UA5's analog outputs.

Ideally, you should switch to a recorder (like an iRiver 1xx, or better yet a 24-bit recorder) with a digital input so you can run digital-out from the UA5 (if it's modded to do so).  This will allow you to set levels once, and only once, as well as perform analog-to-digital conversion only once (which is a good thing).

If you have questions about the UA5 and te "digi-mod" required to allow digital-output to a recorder, check the UA5 FAQ in the TS Knowledge Base / Archive | Pre's, A/D's and Processors forum.

[rastasean]

great advice from Brian!

The AT4041s are nice mics but they can't be blamed for the hiss. Better luck next time with the recordings!

[bgreen]

This is a real quick down and dirty mix, see what you think.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=PAPXIT4T

could use some fine tuning with EQ, I only worked on getting the volume up, but you can get the idea.

[DMBprez]

This is a real quick down and dirty mix, see what you think.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=PAPXIT4T

could use some fine tuning with EQ, I only worked on getting the volume up, but you can get the idea.

Sounds great, can you let me know what you did?


Thanks so much, by the way.

[bgreen]

Instead of pushing the gain in one fell swoop, I double tracked your clip multiple times by cloning the track and adding a little gain on each in wavelab montage's.

Not something you want to make a habit of, usually done on guitar tracks to fatten them up, but it also works in a pinch to add some gain without cranking a single plug.

I also used algorithmix noise free to remove the small amount of resulting hiss and UAD's precision  buss compressor to add some of gain on the render.

You can hear how much fatter the sound is, wouldn't hurt to eq a few DB from the bottom range of the lead singers voice to get rid of a little of the boominess and a little off at between 5 and 10k to attentuate the silibance.

edit: looked at plugs, this is what I used.