Topic: Anyone starting encounter digital mixers in the wild?

[runonce]

Starting a new thread based of this one...

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=163766.0

 - and my experience last weekend.

I do sound/lights for a local country music variety show. The show owns their own theatre...so the show is always set on stage.

And, mostly I just turn stuff on and off and do some rudimentary mixing. We have a Mackie 24/4 channel board.

We do occasional road shows - and we always contract out the sound. I knew the fellow providing the system - and knew he had the same Mackie console we have.

Show up at the gig - and there's a Yamaha LS-9 Digital Mixer! Luckily my boss had decided to work this show...the guy who provided the system probably could have set me up...but that potential "Oh Shit" moment is stuck in my brain.

I know digital mixers aren't totally new - but I've only seen them a big shows. Recently, I've seen the 16 channel LS-9 go on ebay for less than 3000 bucks - which makes me wonder if we'll be seeing them soon in the club/bar band scene?

For sure - this was not the most taper-friendly mixer - nothing but XLR analog and RCA digital outs. And you pretty much have to ask the soundguy to setup/activate some outputs for you.

Of course - XLR > 1/4 TRS was the only cable I DIDN'T have...so I had to get signal from the XLR - and route it too my mixer XLR ins. It was nice to be able to dial in the LS-9 outputs just where I only needed a touch of gain from my mixer to get a good signal.

But - disappointing to find I could have recorded to a USB stick! (and I had a blank 8 gig in my pocket!)

http://www.yamahaproaudio.com/global/en/products/mixers/ls9/lineup.jsp

[page]

I know digital mixers aren't totally new - but I've only seen them a big shows. Recently, I've seen the 16 channel LS-9 go on ebay for less than 3000 bucks - which makes me wonder if we'll be seeing them soon in the club/bar band scene?

Behringer makes one now; the x32 is in the budget category and retails for somewhere around the same. One of our local bar venues has one.

For sure - this was not the most taper-friendly mixer - nothing but XLR analog and RCA digital outs. And you pretty much have to ask the soundguy to setup/activate some outputs for you.

This is really my only beef with it. I'm now competing for general outputs as there aren't any DOs, you just program the channels on the fly and that requires more time and attention from an already loaded crew. From a venue standpoint though, I totally get why they went that route.

[achalsey]

There are a few here in Asheville.  There are two Behringer x32's; one at the indoor stage at Pisgah Brewing Company (which they just bought a few months ago), and at least one is owned by Stewart Sound, who are a local mobile company that do a lot of the outdoor shows around town.  I'm also pretty sure the Asheville Music Hall has a digital board but not sure what kind (though I could be mistaken about that).

You are right though, I think it does seem a little less straight forward to get a patch if the sound guy is not familiar with the board yet, since you have to specifically designate the matrix out to certain channels.  I'm sure you can save the settings to have certain channels always be matrix outs though, but one of the first times I encountered the X32 the guy running it wasn't totally familiar with it so it took a little while for him to run through menus to find how to assign the matrix out to specific channels.

[runonce]

I guess Behringer bought Midas - and all that came with it...?

I've heard good things about the new Behri mixers - despite being in the budget category.

If we end up with one at our theatre - wouldn't be surprised if its a Behringer.

We have an old Yamaha O2R - but thats more a recording console I think...although we did use it for a big show at the Toyota center in York PA.

[page]

You are right though, I think it does seem a little less straight forward to get a patch if the sound guy is not familiar with the board yet, since you have to specifically designate the matrix out to certain channels.  I'm sure you can save the settings to have certain channels always be matrix outs though, but one of the first times I encountered the X32 the guy running it wasn't totally familiar with it so it took a little while for him to run through menus to find how to assign the matrix out to specific channels.

now that you mention it, it would probably be beneficial to read the manual for future reference. If nothiing else, to help a less than ready crew member.

http://www.behringer.com/assets/X32_P0ASF_EQSG_EN.pdf

[kcmule]

We've started using the Soundcraft SI Expression 3 consoles.

[yousef]

There are a couple of the Yamaha ones in use in Manchester at the moment. Really hate the "omni out" set-up - once the main outs and monitors and whatever else are hooked up, you're basically left with two (maybe three) outputs and, as has been said above, you have to rely on the soundguy to configure them correctly - and presumably make sure they remain set-up similarly for each 'scene' if there are multiple bands playing.

I've no doubt that those big Behringer desks will soon become ubiquitous, for better or worse.

[0vu]

I probably see more digital consoles than anlogue ones on the shows I work on. Last weekend it was a Digidesign Venue Profile (horrible thing!) but mostly it's DigiCo or Midas or on smaller shows one of those unpleasant sounding Yamaha MC7/MC9 things. If it's one of the MC's I prefer to take analogue mic splits and sort out my own premaps/converters. If it's a DigiCo or Midas they're usually ok to take a digital split of some sort.

Here's a few snaps (Sorry if they're too big - I'm not sure how to make them re-size smaller)

DigiCo D1 Front of House


And same show, same venue different date. (This show now uses an SD something or other but I haven't got any pics of that yet.)


DigiCo D5 (bottom) driving Front of house and D1 on recording duties


Same show...different angle (D1 with SADiE LRX2s foreground and back right doing 64 track records)


One you don't see often - Yamaha PM1D (left and some kind of expensive looking lighting console (right)

[rhinowing]

beautiful venue in those first two photos. where is that?

[0vu]

It's the Royal Albert Hall in London, UK. http://www.royalalberthall.com/ Home every summer to the biggest music festival in the world, the BBC Henry Wood Promenade Concerts (aka The Proms) which I think is in it's 119th year this year, and used during the rest of the year for everything from classical concerts to rock/pop concerts, big name comedians, corporate conferences, exhibitions, ice skating, tennis, boxing, even Cirque du Soleil shows. It's a great venue. Though being a circular building with a domed roof the acoustics are a little ...er... challenging.

The venue for pics 3&4 is pretty good too (though you can't see it in the pics) if you like big churches. It's Westminster Cathedral (below in a long shot from the same show). The three domes in the roof make for an interesting acoustic but it's great fun to record there. The DigiCo desks shown above were positioned in the rear right hand corner behind the block of seating just starting to be visible in the bottom of the pic below, so out of shot beyond the bottom right of the pic).

[John Willett]

And the last photo (the Yamaha PM1D one) in 0VU's post is the Cadogan Hall in London, round the corner from Sloane Square. 

[0vu]

Certainly is, John 

Here it is from another angle. (This was taken during the de-rig as I'd forgotten to take any pics before the show. We'd already struck all the stage mics except the solo and wind spots and were about to start on the hanging stuff.)

[yousef]

Those are some beautiful rooms. So tempted to post some pictures of the more, er, esoteric venues that Manchestertaper finds itself taping or running sound in... This weekend: an ex-squash court in the basement of a snooker club with a Mercury Prize winner headlining 

[IowaClint]

I run a Roland M-480 with all the bells and whistles.  Nice piece of gear.  What you all are talking about is the assignable outputs from the back of the board.  If the soundguy isn't up to speed on that console good luck getting a patch.  The Gui's on these boards are sometimes ridiculous and makes it a pain to setup outputs and Fx's on Aux's.
~Clint

[bugg100]

We've started using the Soundcraft SI Expression 3 consoles.

Yeah, my main club has one of these. Seems nice for the FOH staff, but it totally made my HD24 obsolete. Worst thing? The multi-digital output card isn't available yet, even then it means taping with a laptop. Not my idea of fun.....

Joe

[Chuck]

One of the local clubs uses a digital mixer now. I was trying to multi-track a band one night. Two of the feeds were inadvertently routed to the same track. The engineer and I both missed it when we were soundchecking.

All those menus hidden in other menus etc... make stuff like that possible on a digital console.

You can just look at an analog board and see exactly what is going where. You may have to check where the cables are connected, but it's not as easy to miss routing on an analog board.

[kcmule]

We've started using the Soundcraft SI Expression 3 consoles.

Yeah, my main club has one of these. Seems nice for the FOH staff, but it totally made my HD24 obsolete. Worst thing? The multi-digital output card isn't available yet, even then it means taping with a laptop. Not my idea of fun.....

Joe

Actually I think those cards are out now.  http://www.fullcompass.com/product/449746.html

[DSatz]

I love the fact that the discussion in this forum ranges from recording in neighborhood bars to the Albert Hall and Westminster Cathedral.

--best regards

[runonce]

Well - looks like I'll be working with a Yamaha O2R next week...!

Not the latest - probably one of the earlier digital consoles.



I think these were primarily targeted at studio recording - but can be used for live sound.

My boss has had it for a while - and we did use it at one big show a few years ago.

Our Mackie really needs a cleaning - and instead of letting the O2R collect dust - we decided to add it to the house system at the theater I work at.

So - my weekend is going to be pouring over the manual...watching some youtube tutorials - just so I can make some sense out of whatever instruction I'll be getting.

We're setting up Tuesday afternoon - and we have a long rehearsal Tuesday evening...Thursday will be the first show.

Unfortunately - recording will probably take a back seat...I guess. (depends on if my boss wants to run the show Thursday)

Will report back with fun details!

[runonce]

Well...the Yamaha O2R is installed...I =guess= I can work this thing!!!

But - still VERY intimidating - I have no "go to" instinct with this thing yet.

The nature of the knobs and faders are different - and things can be flipped, so one knob is now another knob...OMG!..you really have to pay attention.
Some knobs are not really indexed - just more or less...where the knob is irrelevant!!!

But, we did get 5 solid scenes setup that will get me through the next show.

We also have 2, 8 channel Pre-sonus rack pres connected via Toslink...

Running the whole thing with a Lucid master clock

The mixer has all the ADAT lightpipe cards installed - and it came along with an M-Audio Lightbridge interface (firewire)

I assume I can use this to connect the Toslink ADAT outs and send the whole shebang to a computer...not sure Im going to this this time...

But - the best part...it just sounds better than the Mackie in every way - all the musicians were like "wow" - and full of compliments...

[runonce]

Well - the first outing with the O2R...not a complete disaster...but how many complete disasters are there!?!

First - damn glad my boss showed up for this gig! At least its not all my fault!

About 1/2 hour before the show - all is well. Suddenly a huge buzz starts coming through the monitors and mains...loud as hell!

We get that to subside - at the time thinking it was just a bad phantom powered DI box blowing up...

But as the show progresses - we start having this weird tone that would come and go - and seem to accompany the vocals.

It sort sounded like Feedback - but was generating a low tone that was not in the voice.

As long as the band was playing - this wasn't noticeable - and we pretty much pulled the show off...(even got a standing O for the last set!)

But - this was pretty disappointing...

So - later we tried to troubleshoot a bit after the show - dropping our master clock down to 44 (from 48) seemed to help with the false tone.
I think this tone had to be a digital glitch...I've not really heard feedback that is lower than its source tone.

And, we think our wordclock BNC cable might have been too long...(after some research)...

Im also curious if we don't have some mismatch in bit depth between our Presonus rack pre/ADs and the O2R...

On the upside - I did learn a good bit about this mixer. I think I can pull off a soundcheck...still a little slow saving the scenes.

But when it works - it sure sounds a hell of a lot better than the old Mackie...!

We have another show Wednesday...(but I think we're borrowing an LS9 for backup if we cant get this working.)

[kirk97132]

Well - the first outing with the O2R...not a complete disaster...but how many complete disasters are there!?!

First - damn glad my boss showed up for this gig! At least its not all my fault!

About 1/2 hour before the show - all is well. Suddenly a huge buzz starts coming through the monitors and mains...loud as hell!

We get that to subside - at the time thinking it was just a bad phantom powered DI box blowing up...

But as the show progresses - we start having this weird tone that would come and go - and seem to accompany the vocals.

It sort sounded like Feedback - but was generating a low tone that was not in the voice.

As long as the band was playing - this wasn't noticeable - and we pretty much pulled the show off...(even got a standing O for the last set!)

But - this was pretty disappointing...

So - later we tried to troubleshoot a bit after the show - dropping our master clock down to 44 (from 48) seemed to help with the false tone.
I think this tone had to be a digital glitch...I've not really heard feedback that is lower than its source tone.

And, we think our wordclock BNC cable might have been too long...(after some research)...

Im also curious if we don't have some mismatch in bit depth between our Presonus rack pre/ADs and the O2R...

On the upside - I did learn a good bit about this mixer. I think I can pull off a soundcheck...still a little slow saving the scenes.

But when it works - it sure sounds a hell of a lot better than the old Mackie...!

We have another show Wednesday...(but I think we're borrowing an LS9 for backup if we cant get this working.)

FWIW, yamaha digitals are notoriously known for subpar clocks and everyone I have seen is clocked with an outboard unit.  One of the reasons we avoided the yamaha's at our venue when we shopped digital boards last spring. 

As for the noise are you running DSP amps?  I know we have had a bit of a trial and error getting our DSP's set up exactly how we want them.  For us we run a LCR, Sub set up. And I have had feed back issues that actually seeemed to move around in the house...don't know how else to explain it.  But took some work getting all four levels dialed in and rung out.

[runonce]

No we're still analog into the house.

We are using a Lucid GenX192 Master Clock and 2 Presonus Digimax D8s with the O2R.

So - entirely possible something isn't synced...

I've been deferring to the guy who set this up - but since I've been reading more, I want to go in to the theatre and throw the rig on, and check a few things.

Gotta wonder if one of the Presonus pres is on internal clock...

[kirk97132]

No we're still analog into the house.

We are using a Lucid GenX192 Master Clock and 2 Presonus Digimax D8s with the O2R.

So - entirely possible something isn't synced...

I've been deferring to the guy who set this up - but since I've been reading more, I want to go in to the theatre and throw the rig on, and check a few things.

Gotta wonder if one of the Presonus pres is on internal clock...

For some reason I seem to recall a discussion on GS that the Presonous only(?) worked correctly when slaved to another master clock.  That they sucked and or would not run as mater in a chain???  It could be my mind playing tricks on me too with different discussions running into one.  Which also brings to mind latency issues with outboard gear.  We went totally digital including all DSP amps so I don't really have any experience with latency on outboard gear.

[runonce]

After another not-so-great outing with the Yamaha O2R...its out - we have wireless RF issues on long unbalanced runs from the AUXs...or something...

So - this Saturday we are installing a new Behringer X32!

I guess this has a 32 track USB interface built in.

And, since one of my jobs is recording - I'll finally have a chance to dig into some real multi-track work. (blessing or curse...)

Looking forward to the next 3 shows...didn't even record the last 2 we had so many issues!

[kcmule]

I'll finally have a chance to dig into some real multi-track work. (blessing or curse...)

It's both!

[page]

Has anyone clocked to a behringer x32 before? Did you use the aes out for clock info or what?

[kirk97132]

Here I am setting up for 100 person choir along with featured Duo's & quartets.  Hard to see my ADK TL's set up on the apron lip for the small groups.  Having the baby grand tuned.  Some of the quartets placed second and third in the world.  Should be an interesting gig first time I've done thins with our digi board.  The board is an Allen & Heath iLive-112. 

[capnhook]

                                       
mintyyyyyyyyyyyy               

[runonce]

First outing with the Behringer X32! - No problemo!

[kirk97132]

Surprising how similiar the Behringher layout is to the Allen & Heath

[runonce]

Surprising how similiar the Behringher layout is to the Allen & Heath

Lovin it!

Finally got the recording part working also!

[kirk97132]

Recording to thumb drive?

[capnhook]

Recording to thumb drive?

niiiiiice

[runonce]

Recording to thumb drive?

No - PC...I used Reaper...had some issues - worked - but I think I messed up the session somehow - so tracks from one take are in another take...not sure what I did.

But I recorded enough to give me some fodder for experimentation - and making refinements for next week.

I think the USB recorder is limited to 16 tracks...but I think if you buss stuff around properly - you can squeeze a few more in.

I am also hearing a whistle though my PC playback...guessing (well hoping!) that just might be the crappy soundcard in this PC.
Its very low - and not particularly noticeable unless its a quiet passage at high volume.

[runonce]

First rough render...just trying to understand workflow here...not really a mix to show off - just trying to figure out how stuff works...

But still sounds ok!

http://www.rovingsign.com/opry/opry.m3u

[kirk97132]

Recording to thumb drive?

No - PC...I used Reaper...had some issues - worked - but I think I messed up the session somehow - so tracks from one take are in another take...not sure what I did.

But I recorded enough to give me some fodder for experimentation - and making refinements for next week.

I think the USB recorder is limited to 16 tracks...but I think if you buss stuff around properly - you can squeeze a few more in.

I am also hearing a whistle though my PC playback...guessing (well hoping!) that just might be the crappy soundcard in this PC.
Its very low - and not particularly noticeable unless its a quiet passage at high volume.

Question, it sounds like you are saying that you could go USB out of the Behringher to USB in on computer, is that correct?  One reason I am very interested is a guy I work for had bought an X-32 this summer but he is not comfortable enough on it to use it yet...but I know we will be using it and I am usually recording most bands that I mix when I work with him.  So, USB to USB would be super simple easy.  If it was USB >USB did you have to buy a card or anything like that to do USB?  If it wasn't how did you get signal into the PC?  I have presonous, Foucusrite and Behringher 8 channel preamps, but all mine are FW pre's and no FW on my laptop.  Thanks in advance

[runonce]

Recording to thumb drive?

No - PC...I used Reaper...had some issues - worked - but I think I messed up the session somehow - so tracks from one take are in another take...not sure what I did.

But I recorded enough to give me some fodder for experimentation - and making refinements for next week.

I think the USB recorder is limited to 16 tracks...but I think if you buss stuff around properly - you can squeeze a few more in.

I am also hearing a whistle though my PC playback...guessing (well hoping!) that just might be the crappy soundcard in this PC.
Its very low - and not particularly noticeable unless its a quiet passage at high volume.

Question, it sounds like you are saying that you could go USB out of the Behringher to USB in on computer, is that correct?  One reason I am very interested is a guy I work for had bought an X-32 this summer but he is not comfortable enough on it to use it yet...but I know we will be using it and I am usually recording most bands that I mix when I work with him.  So, USB to USB would be super simple easy.  If it was USB >USB did you have to buy a card or anything like that to do USB?  If it wasn't how did you get signal into the PC?  I have presonous, Foucusrite and Behringher 8 channel preamps, but all mine are FW pre's and no FW on my laptop.  Thanks in advance

It has both...there is a little USB port on the mix surface - this is the on-board recorder, and is used to import and export scenes. I think its limited to 16 channels. Just plug in a stick and go.

And - it has a built-in 32 channel USB/Firewire interface - these jacks are on the back.

To use the USB Recording interface - You need the USB Driver from the website....And then select the ASIO driver in Reaper - and that was pretty much it.

Behringer has something called "X32-Edit" - but this is more a way to per-configure the board/show on a PC.

I used Windows 7 laptop - seemed to work easily.