Taperssection.com

Gear / Technical Help => Recording Gear => Topic started by: tbger on July 29, 2020, 05:21:42 AM

Title: Newbie question about DAT
Post by: tbger on July 29, 2020, 05:21:42 AM
Hi,


As some of you have seen, I've searched (and basically found) a recorder with a digital input, for transferring my DAT tapes (mainly).

When I just got into the actual job, I found out that my TCD-D7 stopped working properly, throwing an 'Error 10' each time I insert a tape.

I'm not in a harsh, but given I have quite a lot of time at home because of the Corona virus quarantine, I'd really like to do this now.

To my question:  I'm almost completely not familiar with DAT recorders, and I'd like to know which DAT decks would decently play my tapes.  All of them were recorded on the Sony D7.


Any help is appreciated, thanks in advance.


Roy
Title: Re: Newbie question about DAT
Post by: Melanie on July 29, 2020, 08:34:00 AM
I have used a Tascam DA 30 mk 2 successfully, although it now has a tape stuck in it. Due out for repair next week. I just bought a Fostex PA 4 for transfers and it has played most of what I have put in it, my portable deck was a Sony D3, I believe. Tape guides would loosen on these decks unless lock-tite was used on set screws,  some tapes have issues. Someone here may have one for sale, see who chimes in. Bob
Title: Re: Newbie question about DAT
Post by: old and in the way on July 29, 2020, 08:40:06 AM
I have a couple of Fostex D5's and have found that these decks play almost everything i throw at them . The Sony D7  is a small portable and ok for a small amount of transfers but a
home unit will serve you better for larger amounts .Look on Ebay for used decks or search for a good used home deck that will be what you need.Dat hasn't been a thing for quite a while and most decks are showing problems with age .There are still people who work on them but you'll have to decide if it's worth the cost. good luck .
Title: Re: Newbie question about DAT
Post by: Ozpeter on August 01, 2020, 07:29:45 AM
In my experience (many years ago) DAT tapes sometimes won't play other than on the machine they were recorded on, if it was misaligned.  Ideally you'd only buy a machine that you'd tested one of your own tapes on.  And use a tape that wasn't so important in case the deck being tested eats it.
Title: Re: Newbie question about DAT
Post by: tbger on August 17, 2020, 12:22:52 PM
In my experience (many years ago) DAT tapes sometimes won't play other than on the machine they were recorded on, if it was misaligned. Ideally you'd only buy a machine that you'd tested one of your own tapes on.  And use a tape that wasn't so important in case the deck being tested eats it.

Thanks everybody for your help, especially thank you Peter for this smart advice, I'd definitely do so if I find out my D7 can't be fixed at a decent price.  (I've highlighted the above for anyone with the same problem who would read this topic in the future.)
Title: Re: Newbie question about DAT
Post by: lerond on August 17, 2020, 11:42:15 PM
I have a small collection of DAT decks of various models, with three (Sony D-100, Fostex D-5, and Panasonic SV-3800) hooked up for making transfers. I'd be happy to try making transfers on problematic tapes sent to me with a self-addressed stamped envelope for the return journey.

Maybe someone with a D-7 could make the same offer?
Title: Re: Newbie question about DAT
Post by: tbger on November 24, 2020, 04:58:44 AM
Good morning here,


I've finally sent my D7 to someone who knows how to fix these things in my country (Israel).  I've been told that its guides were very loose (among the other, more critical problems, of capacitor leakage and old grease).

In the meantime, I've tried playing my tapes on a Tascam DA-30 (not the MK ii).  Now, my tapes divide into two groups:  the first were recorded by my (loose headed) D7, in SP mode; the second - on my friend's D7, in LP mode (this means a downgrade to 32KHz, right ?).  The DA-30 played the first group of tapes without a problem, but none of the other tapes (my friend's LP mode ones) - it showed nothing on the meters as well.

I didn't think about this difference when I was near the device, so I can't test or change anything now, but could it be that the Tascam doesn't read tapes recorded on LP ?  Or is there a way to change its settings to recognize the inserted tape is an LP one ?  Just so I could check it when I'm near the deck again.

EDIT:  I do see a "Rec. Mode - Standard/Long" on the DA-30 MKii, but I can't figure out whether this option is featured on the original DA-30 as well (I see on datrecorders.co.uk there actually is support for 32KHz, but I don't know if they mean just for recording or for playback too).  I've natively thought that most decks would support LP mode just like my D7 does.


Thanks everyone,
Roy

P.S. sorry for my newbie questions !
Title: Re: Newbie question about DAT
Post by: morst on November 24, 2020, 06:53:16 PM
Sony and Panasonic used different formats for their LP modes, which are not compatible with each other. Not sure which one the tascam would use, but probably the Panasonic version.
Title: Re: Newbie question about DAT
Post by: jefflester on November 24, 2020, 08:07:52 PM
The "Panasonic" 32 kHz is 16-bit, but it is not an LP mode. 16-bit @ 32 kHz, but the machine runs the same speed and a 2 hour tape is still just a 2 hour tape. The "Sony" 32 kHz is an LP mode non-linear 12 bit @ 32 kHz and the machine runs at half speed so you get 4 hours out of a 2 hour tape. The Fostex and Tascam machines that have LP mode are 12-bit/32-kHz like the Sony machines. That Tascam DA-30 should play back 32 kHz LP DATs made on a Sony TCD-D7. If it doesn't it could well be a head misalignment problem like Ozpeter mentioned. I haven't done any in years, but had varied success playing back LP tapes recorded on a Sony DTC-75ES or received in trade. I still have the 75ES stored away in a closet in case I need it for some old LP mode recordings (like an FM broadcast of the 1997 Playboy Jazz Festival) and they don't play on my Fostex D5. Though I have doubts it will ever make it all the way through a 4 hour tape given that the transport was struggling back 10+ years ago when I used it last. Over the years my Fostex D5 has played just about everything (like oaitw said), frequently better than my Panasonic SV-3800.

LP mode in section 19 of the DAT-heads FAQ:
https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=302.0
Title: Re: Newbie question about DAT
Post by: jerryfreak on November 24, 2020, 08:38:10 PM
the hardest part for me of dealing with 32K recordings (all sony) is finding a recorder that can accept it. none of the standalone solid state recorders i use will lock on 32K. Soundcards can usually do it but the laptop i used to use is long defunct. You may need to go analog out of the DAT
Title: Re: Newbie question about DAT
Post by: tbger on November 26, 2020, 01:41:53 AM
A lot of thanks for your help guys.

In the meantime, we've tried out the LP cassettes on a (properly aligned) Fostex D5, which was my only and last option - luckily it played them flawlessly. 

jefflester, are you sure the Tascam DA-30 should play LP tapes ?  I'm asking because I simply can't find a way to adjust it to LP mode, or to 32 KHz (which I do find on pictures of the DA-30 MKii - is this what you mean you've tried ?).  I know the heads of the mentioned DA-30 are aligned, so in my humble opinion this could either be that the LP tapes were recorded on a misaligned D7 (and the Fostex D5 still played them), or that the DA-30 actually does not read LP tapes.  Anyone could pop in here and share your knowledge on this please ?
Title: Re: Newbie question about DAT
Post by: jefflester on November 26, 2020, 08:06:51 PM
Yeah, looks like it is only the DA-30 MKII that records and plays in LP mode. That datrecorders.co.uk page has a photo of the non MKII but it looks like the specs for MKII so it's a little confusing. I was also thinking of the DA-20 that had LP mode in its non MKII version, the DA-20 being like a Fostex D-5 but with the black front instead of white.
Title: Re: Newbie question about DAT
Post by: tbger on November 27, 2020, 04:24:56 AM
Thank you for letting me know, and also for the info about the different LP methods of Panasonic and Sony / Tascam - it might save me a lot of time and / or money.

Roy
Title: Re: Newbie question about DAT
Post by: H₂O on November 30, 2020, 09:58:03 PM
the hardest part for me of dealing with 32K recordings (all sony) is finding a recorder that can accept it. none of the standalone solid state recorders i use will lock on 32K. Soundcards can usually do it but the laptop i used to use is long defunct. You may need to go analog out of the DAT


Nomad Jukebox 3 supports 32Khz mode on it's digital input as do the Sound Devices 7xx series (BNC Connector)
Title: Re: Newbie question about DAT
Post by: tbger on December 06, 2020, 01:49:37 PM
the hardest part for me of dealing with 32K recordings (all sony) is finding a recorder that can accept it. none of the standalone solid state recorders i use will lock on 32K. Soundcards can usually do it but the laptop i used to use is long defunct. You may need to go analog out of the DAT

Hey - I didn't notice your reply previously, thanks for pointing this out.  Does it mean if I go straight from the DAT deck into a recorder that doesn't specially record on 32KHz, I'll get some kind of errors on the result ?  Or maybe it won't receive anything at all ?

Anyway, I was thinking about using my Violectric V800 DAC for solving this issue, feeding it from the DAT deck, and using its digital output going back to the recorder.  It has a resampling feature which, supposedly, should change the sample rate of the incoming signal, according to what you define. I'm attaching the part of the manual where this issue is mentioned (from the Digital Output chapter).

What I'm planning to use as a recorder is a Marantz PMD570, which should be able to record on 48KHz.  So, assuming I'm not mistaken with something, and everything will work as it should, I hope I'll get my job done this way.

Any opinions are welcome and highly appreciated.  I'm just a beginner in this stuff.


Roy
Title: Re: Newbie question about DAT
Post by: rocksuitcase on December 20, 2021, 07:53:48 PM
bump- about to add some info and questions.
Title: Re: Newbie question about DAT
Post by: OldNeumanntapr on December 20, 2021, 09:27:24 PM
A lot of thanks for your help guys.

In the meantime, we've tried out the LP cassettes on a (properly aligned) Fostex D5, which was my only and last option - luckily it played them flawlessly. 

jefflester, are you sure the Tascam DA-30 should play LP tapes ?  I'm asking because I simply can't find a way to adjust it to LP mode, or to 32 KHz (which I do find on pictures of the DA-30 MKii - is this what you mean you've tried ?).  I know the heads of the mentioned DA-30 are aligned, so in my humble opinion this could either be that the LP tapes were recorded on a misaligned D7 (and the Fostex D5 still played them), or that the DA-30 actually does not read LP tapes.  Anyone could pop in here and share your knowledge on this please ?

I had a 1st generation Tascam DA-30 and I don't believe that it supported 32k LP. I'm pretty sure my Sony 59ES did, though I never used that feature.
Title: NOT a noob Re: Newbie question about DAT
Post by: rocksuitcase on December 21, 2021, 10:44:10 AM
NOT a Newbie question about DAT
So I picked up a Tascam DA-20 from a person who swapped ex boyfriend leftover items with her best GF when they both became Exes at the same time TEN YEARS AGO. So I got a DAT deck she had stored in a storage room and never touched for ten years. I gave her $80 for it which was probably $30 too much, but it was a friend of a friend dealio. It did not play tapes, it FF'd and REW'd but no play, no levels etc.
Then I took the deck to Juan at Stereo Repair World who found the belt needed replacing, cleaned it up, checked the electronics and told me it was almost a zero hours on the head, he had not seen such a clean DAT deck in a long time. HE recorded on it and that tape played back great. I brought four tapes I had recently taken off and knew they were not precious. The deck plays all tapes but has some digi zaps and dropouts which I suspected to be the tapes not the deck. Especially after the third tape I played ran for 10-15 minutes flawlessly. (Gov't Mule 1996 master on an HHB DAT tape) $130 is what he charged me for the servicing, so I have $210 plus gas for two trips to Long Island in this thing.

So I get the deck home and start testing it. Aside from not having a long enough spdif digi cable to use, I finally got it set up and running into a Tascam DR680, analog in. (HQ commercial RCA to 1/4 inch interconnects)
Each tape Ive played out of four has had some digi zaps and drop outs. They seem to not start until 70-80 minutes into the tape, and/or when a track marker comes up. I had a Joan Osborne tape (Maxell DAT125,1996 master) which played flawlessly until the track marker at about 78 minutes. Then: I heard zzzzn stststst digizap noise and both channels would drop 90% down then back up. I had already just stopped the takeoff on two other tapes (both Fuji 90m's)which did this. But this one I really wanted a clean takeoff. So, I paused the recorder, stopped the tape, rewound it about 15 minutes, FWD'd it to the track point and it played flawlessly until the end (about 25 more minutes), so with some editing of the raw file, I will have a clean copy.

Questions for the DAT heads among us:
1] should I be FF and REW each tape before I transfer?
2] Is this possibly a tensioning element in the tape guide which Is beyond Juan's servicing ability? To be clear: I think he has done what he could, made it work, cleaned the heads etc. Playing back all these old tapes, many of which were made on not studiously aligned decks is not his fault.
3] I have several different brands of DATS, most of them Fuji 90m DDS tapes. But a lot of HHB DAT, Maxell DAT 125's and Sony 60m DDS. Am I going to have to have different players for these tape types?
4] has anyone experienced the deal where the DAT takeoff has issues then you FF or REW and it plays flawlessly?

Lastly, if anyone wishes to part with a working Fostex D5, shoot me a PM.       8) >:D
Title: Re: NOT a noob Re: Newbie question about DAT
Post by: rigpimp on December 21, 2021, 05:59:44 PM
Questions for the DAT heads among us:
1] should I be FF and REW each tape before I transfer?

I would always recommend a full FFWD and REW of all DAT/DDS tapes.

2] Is this possibly a tensioning element in the tape guide which Is beyond Juan's servicing ability? To be clear: I think he has done what he could, made it work, cleaned the heads etc. Playing back all these old tapes, many of which were made on not studiously aligned decks is not his fault.

It's possible but remember that this run like a miniature VHS machine with a drum head.  Tension MUST be maintained across the tape as it crosses the drum.

3] I have several different brands of DATS, most of them Fuji 90m DDS tapes. But a lot of HHB DAT, Maxell DAT 125's and Sony 60m DDS. Am I going to have to have different players for these tape types?

VERY, VERY likely.  Remember how everyone complained that the TCD-D7/8 would/would not play tapes of a certain length but they'd playback fine in other decks?  I have seen the exact same thing in Panasonic decks.  The sv3700 would play 3 hours tapes w/o a problem but the sv3800 would puke on them every, single, solitary time.

4] has anyone experienced the deal where the DAT takeoff has issues then you FF or REW and it plays flawlessly?

I have.  I have also seen the track marker issue you describe.  It may have just been luck but I found that an FFWD/REW followed by starting from the first track marker and NOT the tape's beginning worked well for me.  I also used cleaning tapes regularly but not to excess.
Title: Re: NOT a noob Re: Newbie question about DAT
Post by: jbosco on December 22, 2021, 03:31:17 PM
Back in the day I had all Sonys, D3, D7, D8, M1 and a 60ES, they have all died. A friend loaned me his Sony R300 however it no longer reads tapes it just says "No Tape". I'm not really sure if the deck is broken or it can't read "data grade" tapes, I used mostly 90 meter DDS tapes from Terrapin, KAO being the being the most popular at the time. I can't even find a "DAT" tape to try out at home. Does anyone know if the Sony R300 even reads DDS or 90m or am I wasting my time? If they should have that ability does anyone know where I can send this deck in for a tuneup and repair?
Title: Re: NOT a noob Re: Newbie question about DAT
Post by: morst on December 22, 2021, 03:45:37 PM
Back in the day I had all Sonys, D3, D7, D8, M1 and a 60ES, they have all died. A friend loaned me his Sony R300 however it no longer reads tapes it just says "No Tape". I'm not really sure if the deck is broken or it can't read "data grade" tapes, I used mostly 90 meter DDS tapes from Terrapin, KAO being the being the most popular at the time. I can't even find a "DAT" tape to try out at home. Does anyone know if the Sony R300 even reads DDS or 90m or am I wasting my time? If they should have that ability does anyone know where I can send this deck in for a tuneup and repair?
Up in the corner of a DAT cassette are some little holes, and they are matched by some little pins in the DAT machine, which activate switches when a DAT is inserted.
I think one switch detects when a DAT is inserted, one detects the "write protect" status, and one might have to do with tape length? If you can get your finger or a non-metallic tool (plastic knife?) in there, and manually exercise the switches, perhaps you will dislodge a bit of dirt which is preventing their function?


see diagram, holes 1,2,3,4 which I found here
https://www.4crawler.com/Hardware/Tape_Drives/DAT.shtml


(https://www.4crawler.com/Hardware/Tape_Drives/dat_case.gif)

Title: Re: NOT a noob Re: Newbie question about DAT
Post by: jbosco on December 23, 2021, 08:21:59 AM

Up in the corner of a DAT cassette are some little holes, and they are matched by some little pins in the DAT machine, which activate switches when a DAT is inserted.
I think one switch detects when a DAT is inserted, one detects the "write protect" status, and one might have to do with tape length? If you can get your finger or a non-metallic tool (plastic knife?) in there, and manually exercise the switches, perhaps you will dislodge a bit of dirt which is preventing their function?


see diagram, holes 1,2,3,4 which I found here
https://www.4crawler.com/Hardware/Tape_Drives/DAT.shtml


(https://www.4crawler.com/Hardware/Tape_Drives/dat_case.gif)

I think I found the probes you mentioned however there is a loose part in there with a couple of screws, on the photo it's in the lit area. Obviously this is not be design so perhaps a visit to a repair shop is in order.

Title: Re: Newbie question about DAT
Post by: rocksuitcase on December 28, 2021, 11:17:15 AM
Reporting back about my "progress" understanding the limitations of this DA-20.
1] MOST "limitations" are that my DAT's have multitudinous digi zaps, drop outs etc, anything which is a "clone" and not recorded on my TC-D7 or TC-D8 probably has some of each.
2] Even shows recorded as a master can have issues, but most of them appear to be related to the mics > DMIC-20 cabling etc. and most of those tapes are OK to process
3] I found in the owners manual of the DA-20MkII (mine is an MKI) a section titled: Tape Loading and Removal, which states:
 
Quote
This unit cannot be used with thin tapes (Longer than 120 minute tapes). If these kind of cassettes are used, the unit might malfunction
     
hmmmmmmm
https://tascam.com/downloads/tascam/289/DA-20mkII_manual.pdf

My strategy as a result after reading rigpimps advice and speaking with kindms:
1] Rewinding and FF'ing each tape before playback.
2] inspecting the tape window to ensure nothing is odd (I found one with the tape curled over and wound incorrectly, marked on the j card- BAD Tape)
3] If a tape has more than a minor digizap up to the two minute mark, I stop, RW, take it out and put it in its' case with a note, "Won't play on DA20" (kindms advises this for sanity sake)    ;D

Any more serious DAT user advice or offers to sell me a Fostex D5 invited and encouraged!  >:D     
Title: Re: Newbie question about DAT
Post by: RyanJ on January 03, 2022, 09:03:58 PM
I have a DA20, D8 and M1. I agree on the FF/RW prior to transfer. I find my D8 to be the best at transferring almost anything that may give problems in the other decks. But the DA20 is an absolute tank.
Title: Re: Newbie question about DAT
Post by: rocksuitcase on January 03, 2022, 11:51:47 PM
I was talking about this with another taper friend who has his share of DATs, most transferred. HE says his M1 is the best at takeoffs of problematic tapes.
Re the OP- I am certain that my D8 had some signal path or cabling issues (DMIC20 -> D8 )and a lot of the digizap type noise I am hearing is on the master recording.
Best troubleshooting advice I received on this is: To make a recording on one and playback a few times. If it all tracks and plays then the issue trends toward the tapes, I now have several blank, sealed DAT's so I am going to do this.