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Author Topic: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder  (Read 25279 times)

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Offline daspyknows

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #75 on: August 07, 2023, 09:31:58 PM »
Just getting used to the F3 for my low security gigs with NBox Platinum but curious about the Deity until.  For now my high  >:D rig is babynbox dr-2d schoeps MK* but open to reports.  Who says I can't have both.

Offline Rairun

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #76 on: August 08, 2023, 10:21:28 AM »
do u folks think 96khz is needed?
i usually tape in 48 on a sony a19


Taz

The maths is pretty clear. The Nyquist–Shannon sampling theorem shows that you are able to perfectly reconstruct an analogue sound wave if the sampling rate of the digital recording is at least twice that of the original wave. This means that a 44.1 kHz can perfectly reproduce all frequency content below 22.05 kHz. When I was a teenager, I could only hear up to 20 kHz or so. At 39, this is down to 17 kHz. Your microphone's frequency response often won't be higher than 20 kHz, and if it is, your headphones' often won't be. I can see why you'd want to record at 48 kHz if you are dealing with video (it's the default for DVD and other video content), but CD quality (44.1 kHz) is not only 'good enough' - it reproduces any sound we can hear perfectly. I'd understand the use of higher sampling rates for scientific purposes, but not for listening.
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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #77 on: August 08, 2023, 10:27:45 AM »
do u folks think 96khz is needed?
i usually tape in 48 on a sony a19


Taz

The maths is pretty clear. The Nyquist–Shannon sampling theorem shows that you are able to perfectly reconstruct an analogue sound wave if the sampling rate of the digital recording is at least twice that of the original wave. This means that a 44.1 kHz can perfectly reproduce all frequency content below 22.05 kHz. When I was a teenager, I could only hear up to 20 kHz or so. At 39, this is down to 17 kHz. Your microphone's frequency response often won't be higher than 20 kHz, and if it is, your headphones' often won't be. I can see why you'd want to record at 48 kHz if you are dealing with video (it's the default for DVD and other video content), but CD quality (44.1 kHz) is not only 'good enough' - it reproduces any sound we can hear perfectly. I'd understand the use of higher sampling rates for scientific purposes, but not for listening.

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #78 on: August 08, 2023, 01:50:59 PM »
do u folks think 96khz is needed?
i usually tape in 48 on a sony a19
Taz
The maths is pretty clear. The Nyquist–Shannon sampling theorem shows that you are able to perfectly reconstruct an analogue sound wave if the sampling rate of the digital recording is at least twice that of the original wave. This means that a 44.1 kHz can perfectly reproduce all frequency content below 22.05 kHz. When I was a teenager, I could only hear up to 20 kHz or so. At 39, this is down to 17 kHz. Your microphone's frequency response often won't be higher than 20 kHz, and if it is, your headphones' often won't be. I can see why you'd want to record at 48 kHz if you are dealing with video (it's the default for DVD and other video content), but CD quality (44.1 kHz) is not only 'good enough' - it reproduces any sound we can hear perfectly. I'd understand the use of higher sampling rates for scientific purposes, but not for listening.

I still record at 44.1 kHz. I haven't found any noticeable difference using any other sampling frequency that results in better quality for what I do. I've tried comparisons using up to 96kHz and it just doesn't add anything to what I'm doing except for larger file size. This is for concert recordings that I'm doing as a hobby on my own dime.

When I've had paying gigs I've done all my recordings in 96 kHz sampling freq. More for the client's expectations than anything else.

Interested in this recorder. My small recorder is the Korg MR1 and while it sounds great and is fairly reliable I've had to custom modify it and it is getting a little long in the tooth.

I like the idea of having a recorder that doesn't have any internal mics.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #79 on: August 08, 2023, 04:08:51 PM »
Record at whatever sample rate you like at or above 44.1kHz. I don't dismiss folks who claim higher sample rates makes a significant difference to them.  Justified or not, client expectations fall into that category.  Its just that plenty of other things have greater implications. 

It is fun to record bats and bugs or whatever at high rate and playback at a lower rate to make the ultrasonic singing audible, but that's a different thing than the live music focus here at TS.  In regard to music recording, I have experienced higher sample rates sounding somewhat different in some instances, yet suspect that's due to the quality of specific gear, the specific ADC/DAC implementations and surrounding circuitry, rather than something consistent enough to form the basis of a blanket rule I'd feel comfortable relying upon without that kind of careful listening.  So on that cost/benefit basis I record at 24/48kHz as a way of keeping file storage size reasonable - it's consistent with both "the maths" and my listening experiments.

The strongest argument I've heard for higher sample rates for music recording is to provide increased calculation bandwidth during processing.  But processing can be done at a higher rate than the native depth of the source, in addition to being performed in a calculation space of greater bit-depth than that of the native files (which is how all modern DAW software operates).  Just use that 2X, 4X, 8X, or AUTO "up-sample upon render" option in your plugins if they offer it when using a machine capable of the additional processing overhead.

There is actually a rather strong argument for limiting audio bandwidth so as not to exceed the limits of human high-frequency audibility in an excessive way first, prior to processing at a  multiple of the sample-rate, which may be an unexpected benefit of the lower band-pass filtering inherent to 48 and 44.1kHz.


I like the simple function and form factor of this recorder and am quite interested in it, but need more than two channels so will likely continue using DR2d.
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Offline breakonthru

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #80 on: August 08, 2023, 06:02:56 PM »
do u folks think 96khz is needed?
i usually tape in 48 on a sony a19


Taz

The maths is pretty clear. The Nyquist–Shannon sampling theorem shows that you are able to perfectly reconstruct an analogue sound wave if the sampling rate of the digital recording is at least twice that of the original wave. This means that a 44.1 kHz can perfectly reproduce all frequency content below 22.05 kHz. When I was a teenager, I could only hear up to 20 kHz or so. At 39, this is down to 17 kHz. Your microphone's frequency response often won't be higher than 20 kHz, and if it is, your headphones' often won't be. I can see why you'd want to record at 48 kHz if you are dealing with video (it's the default for DVD and other video content), but CD quality (44.1 kHz) is not only 'good enough' - it reproduces any sound we can hear perfectly. I'd understand the use of higher sampling rates for scientific purposes, but not for listening.

Also, good luck finding a PA that approaches 20K. Many mics don't go out 20k as well, especially when directional components are considered. I think people who grew up with equalizers over-value the significance of even 16K, as the EQ acts as a wide band and influences frequencies below it

Offline breakonthru

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #81 on: August 08, 2023, 07:22:28 PM »
Just getting used to the F3 for my low security gigs with NBox Platinum but curious about the Deity until.  For now my high  >:D rig is babynbox dr-2d schoeps MK* but open to reports.  Who says I can't have both.
You can have both (all three really), but they are very different animals. Not sure what a "low security" gig is (I assume that's still  >:D but not 'open taping'? A gig you still have to sneak gear into?) Since the F3 has phantom power the N-Box platinum solution is quite a bit of extra gear over just using the off the shelf solutions like a CMC1L or CCM, which would eliminate the N-Box and extra cabling. Putting aside 32-bit for a moment, depending on your situation, using an F3, over a smaller cheaper common 2-channel recorder like an DR-2D ( or A10,M10, R07, etc) the advantage is not really clear. I'm not sure it outperforms the other recorders significantly enough on unbalanced line in to justify the extra gear. 32bit aside, F3 is certainly not the only one in its class.Centrance Mixerface comes to mind and is about the same size as the F3, The TASCAM DR40 is only slightly larger (and is slimmer and nearly entirely plastic), with the DR100 series stepping up from that in size a bit

Back to the subject of the thread, the Deity PR2 is really nothing like phantom recorders or the smaller line-in recorders. The former is larger and offers mic powering you may not need, the latter cant really power mics at all without additional equipment.

The PR2 looks to be the size of an A10 based on the pictures (size and weight not on product page but you can gauge by the size of the AA batteries). Timecode, 32-bit recording, and the ability to power mics at 5V in the form factor of one of the smallest 2-ch line in recorders is it advantage. First advantage is essentially useless to tapers, the second may be useful (especially given the level display on the pr2 appears to be as crippled as the TRX)  but not really make-or-break, but the ability to properly power two mics at 5V in that form factor is a game changer. Nothing exists like that now. you need to step up to $1000+ solution to find that from Zaxcom, Lectrosonics, Sonosax, etc.... and most are larger and metal. the tentacle track-e comes close, but is only mono and youd need two devices at $600 and then have to sync them in post. Real 5V PIP power opens up proper powering at high-SPL of all lav mics, as well as the higher end DPA series, so more of a breakthrough for DPA guys. for Schoeps guys it seems to be the equivalent of just another A10 with 32-bit float replacing decent level meters.

In reality, implementation matters more than feature set. id rather have a reliable easy-to-use recorder with a battery box than an all-in-one that doesn't bring home the goods every time. So as you said.. i will wait for reports!



 


Offline wordgroove

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #82 on: August 08, 2023, 07:22:45 PM »
hows all this compare to
the Tascam dr10-L?

is this unit up to par with diety and zoomf3?

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #83 on: August 08, 2023, 07:28:15 PM »
hows all this compare to
the Tascam dr10-L?

is this unit up to par with diety and zoomf3?
Different animals
DR10-L is one channel, and cannot power either phantom mics or lav mics (in our application)

Offline wordgroove

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #84 on: August 08, 2023, 07:31:30 PM »
Different animals
DR10-L is one channel, and cannot power either phantom mics or lav mics (in our application)
------

ok thx u

Offline jefflester

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #85 on: August 08, 2023, 08:20:55 PM »
Different animals
DR10-L is one channel, and cannot power either phantom mics or lav mics (in our application)
------

ok thx u
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Offline DSatz

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #86 on: August 09, 2023, 03:23:23 AM »
rairun, what you say is entirely correct with regard to sampling and reconstruction per se. However, any significant signal energy at or above 1/2 the sampling frequency will cause aliasing distortion, and thus we are all sternly commanded to filter out such energy prior to (or as part of) the conversion process.

Significant energy at such frequencies is rare in real-world sound, as opposed to specially generated test signals designed to challenge a recording system. But in order to handle the worst cases without audible aliasing, digital audio systems conventionally use low-pass filtering with stopband attenuation of 60 - 80 dB or even more. This forces those filters to be awfully steep at sampling rates when there isn't much margin between their turnover point and the Nyquist limit (e.g. the narrow interval between 20 kHz and 22.05 kHz in the case of 44.1 kHz sampling).

The anti-aliasing filters in the PCM-F1 were 9th-order IIRC, and the ones in the PCM-1600 and 1610 were 11th or even 13th. That's way more than would almost ever be needed in my opinion, but it's been the general practice for decades. Such filters can have audible effects on impulse response. They can do things that have no counterpart in the real world of sound, such as ringing that starts before an impulse has actually begun (as well as continuing after the sound has stopped, as one might expect).

At higher sampling rates, on the other hand, the filters don't need to be nearly as steep--and even if they are, with their turnover point an octave higher there will still be far less time-domain nonsense below 20 kHz. Thus the impulse response of a system with a higher sampling frequency can be better--even (occasionally) audibly so under certain conditions. That said, you are also perfectly right about the limitations of most playback systems--especially conventional dynamic loudspeakers. Most of the time when people have provably, repeatably heard differences between 44.1 and 96 kHz in controlled tests, they have been listening over electrostatic headphones to specially generated test signals--various chirps and clicks, rather than real-world music, speech or even nature sounds (some of which are much more demanding than ordinary music)--and the people have generally had some training in how to listen critically to those test signals and hear differences. Some percussion instruments generate impulses that might be "diagnostic" for filter problems, though, plus we don't know whether playback systems might get better some day.

There is also a vague general belief that certain post-processing algorithms will generate less distortion if the sampling rate is higher. To me, if that is so, it sounds like a defect in the software--plus I've never seen anyone actually narrow it down to which algorithm or which software this is supposed to maybe happen with, i.e. I think we may be veering into urban-myth territory where that's concerned.

I still generally record at either 44.1 or 48 kHz when I record at all these days, depending on whether my recording will be synched up to video or not. But if I were a recording company (the two or three that are left nowadays) I suppose I would record at 96/24, because who knows--some day bandwidth may be so cheap and playback systems so good that it will matter a little to some people. I don't think that will happen during my lifetime, but that doesn't mean it can never happen.

--best regards
« Last Edit: August 10, 2023, 06:22:55 PM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #87 on: August 09, 2023, 05:10:34 AM »
If I read right, inputs are LINE, PIP 3/5V on the same jack. I know next to nothing about PIP. I gather when running PIP the input is mic level? If so, would I do any harm (physical or to the signal) running the mic level output from my Baby N-Box using this recorder?

I'm also interested to see how this works for .007 missions and getting past wands and walk-throughs. The metal case makes me a bit nervous, but I think the F3 uses metal too and that's being used in the field for that purpose I believe.

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #88 on: August 09, 2023, 09:14:44 AM »
I gather when running PIP the input is mic level?

Depends on the implementation, the details of which I don't think are known yet. However, on many small handheld recorders, the option of switching on/off PIP is separate from the choice of input sensitivity (mic/line).  If that is the case with the PR-2, using line input sensitivity with PIP will be possible.

Quote
If so, would I do any harm (physical or to the signal) running the mic level output from my Baby N-Box using this recorder?

Probably not, but that depends on the circuit inside the N-Box.  In all likelihood the N-box is designed to block DC (the PIP voltage from the recorder) applied to its output while allowing the alternating voltage signal of the audio to pass to the recorder.
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Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline daspyknows

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #89 on: August 09, 2023, 11:30:25 AM »
Just getting used to the F3 for my low security gigs with NBox Platinum but curious about the Deity until.  For now my high  >:D rig is babynbox dr-2d schoeps MK* but open to reports.  Who says I can't have both.
You can have both (all three really), but they are very different animals. Not sure what a "low security" gig is (I assume that's still  >:D but not 'open taping'? A gig you still have to sneak gear into?) Since the F3 has phantom power the N-Box platinum solution is quite a bit of extra gear over just using the off the shelf solutions like a CMC1L or CCM, which would eliminate the N-Box and extra cabling. Putting aside 32-bit for a moment, depending on your situation, using an F3, over a smaller cheaper common 2-channel recorder like an DR-2D ( or A10,M10, R07, etc) the advantage is not really clear. I'm not sure it outperforms the other recorders significantly enough on unbalanced line in to justify the extra gear. 32bit aside, F3 is certainly not the only one in its class.Centrance Mixerface comes to mind and is about the same size as the F3, The TASCAM DR40 is only slightly larger (and is slimmer and nearly entirely plastic), with the DR100 series stepping up from that in size a bit

Back to the subject of the thread, the Deity PR2 is really nothing like phantom recorders or the smaller line-in recorders. The former is larger and offers mic powering you may not need, the latter cant really power mics at all without additional equipment.

The PR2 looks to be the size of an A10 based on the pictures (size and weight not on product page but you can gauge by the size of the AA batteries). Timecode, 32-bit recording, and the ability to power mics at 5V in the form factor of one of the smallest 2-ch line in recorders is it advantage. First advantage is essentially useless to tapers, the second may be useful (especially given the level display on the pr2 appears to be as crippled as the TRX)  but not really make-or-break, but the ability to properly power two mics at 5V in that form factor is a game changer. Nothing exists like that now. you need to step up to $1000+ solution to find that from Zaxcom, Lectrosonics, Sonosax, etc.... and most are larger and metal. the tentacle track-e comes close, but is only mono and youd need two devices at $600 and then have to sync them in post. Real 5V PIP power opens up proper powering at high-SPL of all lav mics, as well as the higher end DPA series, so more of a breakthrough for DPA guys. for Schoeps guys it seems to be the equivalent of just another A10 with 32-bit float replacing decent level meters.

In reality, implementation matters more than feature set. id rather have a reliable easy-to-use recorder with a battery box than an all-in-one that doesn't bring home the goods every time. So as you said.. i will wait for reports!

Well, would rather use the NBox Platinum with the actives I have than buying the CCM gear.  Low security is stealth without having to navigate walkthrough or weapons scanners. 

 

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