Become a Site Supporter and Never see Ads again!

Author Topic: csc into mt 2?  (Read 3395 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline symoka01

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 51
  • Gender: Male
csc into mt 2?
« on: February 02, 2011, 04:01:35 PM »
hey everyone, i currently run at853 into deneke ps-2 into mt2496 via two 1/4" plugs. That being said, i have an extra pair of core sound stealthy cards sitting around. Im contemplating picking up a mt 2 (very happy with my mt2496) so that i can run an additional rig with my csc's.  Considering this, will csc into core sound battery box into mt 2 via 1/8" mic plug be an ok option? I tried this on the mt2496 some and had some clipping issues for certain shows. I simply want a clean recording. Will this setup compliment my at853 rig pretty well? Would running a 2nd rig be worth my time and effort? Anyone have better advice for a 2nd stealth rig setup?

Also, does anyone know if a recording on the mt2496, recording 24/48, synchs up perfectly with recordings using mt 2, also recording 24/48?

Thanks!

Offline acidjack

  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (37)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *
  • Posts: 5845
  • Gender: Male
Re: csc into mt 2?
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2011, 05:06:23 PM »
IMHO the money spent on an extra MT could be better spent on, well, virtually anything else.   Many mics available at the same price will outperform the CSCs, and if you already have AT 853s, that's one of them.  I don't think the CSCs "compliment" really anything; really a truly bad sounding mic compared to the 853s.

Are your 853s cardiods? What are you trying to accomplish? If you don't have any small omnis, you could get omni caps for them, or if you're obsessed with running 2 rigs, get some Church Audio CAFS omnis or CA-1s to provide a little more life to your recordings when matrixed with the cards.
Mics: Schoeps MK4V, MK41V, MK5, MK22> CMC6, KCY 250/5, KC5, NBob; MBHO MBP603/KA200N, AT 3031, DPA 4061 w/ d:vice, Naiant X-X, AT 853c, shotgun, Nak300
Pres/Power: Aerco MP2, tinybox v2  [KCY], CA-UBB
Decks: Sound Devices MixPre 6, Zoom F8, M10, D50

My recordings on nyctaper.com: http://www.nyctaper.com/?tag=acidjack | LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/acidjack | twitter: http://www.twitter.com/acidjacknyc | Soundcloud: https://soundcloud.com/acidjacknyc

Offline faninor

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 290
Re: csc into mt 2?
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2011, 12:29:20 AM »
I used to tape with CSBs and CSCs and mix the two sources together. I liked the results better than CSB alone, but in almost all situations I wouldn't want to use the CSCs on their own.

Unless you can disable the plug in power on the MT II  I think you would be better off with perhaps a Tascam DR-07 or DR-03. I used to use a Microtrack and I had to put an attenuator pad between my Core Sound mics and the mic in because it would overload on even the lowest setting. Not sure if MT II has lower settings?? The Tascam recorders I use now have basically all the capabilities as my Microtrack did (I gave up 96kHz capability -- but 48kHz is sufficient for my needs) but they're powered by standard user changeable batteries. The DR-03 is tiny and easy to use. If you're set on running two rigs you could get two of those and they'll be smaller than one Microtrack. I know how hard it can be to sneak 2 mics, 2 battery boxes, 2 recorders, a 1/8" to 2x1/4" table for the Microtrack into a show...

As for if the recordings will sync up perfectly -- the answer is no. You're only guaranteed that with pro gear where everything can be synced to an external clock while taping. Or you can use a 4-track recorder so that you can run both mic sets simultaneously into the same recorder. You could run two identical recorders side by side and the resulting recordings may still drift over time.

IMO it is better to get one set of mics that will really meet your needs, and just run those, than to deal with the extra gear you have to carry with you and the extra time syncing and mixing together sources. For very important shows I still run two rigs, but if my main rig performs as expected I just archive the second source into my files.

Offline fmaderjr

  • Trade Count: (16)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1966
Re: csc into mt 2?
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2011, 08:14:19 AM »
CSB's and CSC's are not nearly as good as AT853's/Church Audio mics and cost much more than Church Audio. Plus customer service at Coresound is mediocre at best. Chris Church can be slow at getting an order off to you, but if there is a problem he will take care of it and be polite about it.  I think his gear is well worth the wait.

As faninir says, I see no reason to get a MT2 (especially if you don't need the digital input). One of the Tascams would be better for your needs and will cost less. Plus, unlike the MT 24/96, if you are going to feed unbalanced mics into the MT2's line inputs you will need to have a special input cable built or you will pick up that dreaded "sprinkler noise" much discussed here when the MT2 first came out (unless you set the MT2's gain to the minimum and use a preamp for your gain).
AT853's (all caps)/CM-300 Franken Naks (CP-1,2,3)/JBMod Nak 700's (CP-701,702) > Tascam DR-680
Or Sonic Studios DSM-6 > M10

Offline symoka01

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 51
  • Gender: Male
Re: csc into mt 2?
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2011, 12:45:55 PM »
thanks for the replies dudes. I have been taping 24/48 using mt at853xr's (cardioids) for almost 5 years and have been very happy with them. The reason i was considering running a 2nd csc rig is because i feel the bass on the at853s is pretty consistently muddy and i like how the cscs are more crisp on bass.  That being said i was considering doing a matrix of the two. If you guys think id be better off just upgrading my mics than running two rigs, do you have some suggestions of mics that stay pretty clean on the high end (like mt 853s) but dont get as muddy on the low end so i can check out some sources on the archive to see if i like them?

Also, i bought my 853xr's 2nd hand and really got a clear explanation as to what the "xr" stands for? What makes these diff than say standard 853's? Ive tried researching and never found a definitive answer.

My budget for new mics are around $500-600 unless i can get some extra cash selling my csc's (or if the quality of sound will drastically go up in the $700-900 range.

Please only suggest stealthable mics.

Thanks guys!
K

Offline faninor

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 290
Re: csc into mt 2?
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2011, 04:19:40 PM »
I use DPA 4060s and love them. The less sensitive DPA 4061s would be a better choice if you want to stack tape or if you go to a lot of extremely loud shows. I love the sound of these mics, and they're tiny.

As I said, before that I ran multiple rigs with CSBs and CSCs but if I could go back in time I would have just waited to buy my first pair of mics until I could afford the DPAs because it is so much less hassle, and so much better results.

Look up some recordings, or I can post some of my own for you to hear.

For powering you can use the preamp that DPA makes (MMA6000). It's a little big -- 4.8 x 3.3 x 1.4 in -- or you can get battery boxes for it with an assortment of output options (xlr, 1/8", etc) so you can get whichever you need. Those are a little smaller in size at 3.75 x 2.4 x 1. I have the MMA6000, it's very sturdy and I've gone through metal detectors with it once or twice but doing so made me quite nervous. If I start going to shows more often with metal detectors I will definitely be getting one of the smaller battery boxes.

If you keep an eye out I wouldn't be surprised if you can find a used pair for less than $500, and the battery boxes you can get new for about $220.

Offline fmaderjr

  • Trade Count: (16)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1966
Re: csc into mt 2?
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2011, 04:37:42 PM »
If you keep an eye out I wouldn't be surprised if you can find a used pair for less than $500, and the battery boxes you can get new for about $220.

The DPA 4061's often go for much less than $500 here when someone has a set to sell (although I also prefer the more sensitive DPA 4060's which sell here even less often and for a a bit more money). If you get them terminated in a 1/8 plug you can use a much cheaper pre, like a Church Audio CA-9100 and get great results. It is also possible to have a CA-9100 built with micro-dot inputs.

A number of members here prefer the less expensive Nevaton MKE400's or Countryman B3's to the DPA's, so you might check them out too. "illconditioned" is the most vocal about it and he's very knowledgeable.
AT853's (all caps)/CM-300 Franken Naks (CP-1,2,3)/JBMod Nak 700's (CP-701,702) > Tascam DR-680
Or Sonic Studios DSM-6 > M10

Offline faninor

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 290
Re: csc into mt 2?
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2011, 04:52:44 PM »
I'm interested in trying Countryman B3s but what I've read leads me to think that getting a well matched pair may be difficult.

Offline symoka01

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 51
  • Gender: Male
Re: csc into mt 2?
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2011, 10:29:51 AM »
sorry i cant quote u guys, im typing this on my phone...thanks for your advice! I mainly tape rock and hip hop shows and a fair amount of singer/songwriter and jazz (galactic/mmw etc). That being said, you think the dpa 4061's would be a better option than the 4060's? Im a big tool fan = 4061? Also, if i want to use my mt2496 is there a way to run dpa into a battery box that has spdif or 1/4" inputs? Any way they could run into my already owned deneke ps-2? Thanks guys!

Offline faninor

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 290
Re: csc into mt 2?
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2011, 12:37:39 PM »
It's a tough call. I mainly tape rock bands in small clubs to mid-size venues with the occasional arena/amphitheatre. When I had a Microtrack, I ran the 4060s through a short cable that had a 1/8" jack on one end and 2x 1/4" jacks on the other so I could use the TRS inputs. The Sound Professionals will custom make a cable like this, you just have to be sure to let them know which version of the Microtrack to wire it to, because the TRS inputs are designed differently. I made sure first to shut off the phantom power on the TRS, and then shove a small piece of plastic into the gap on that switch and tape over it so that it was physically impossible to accidentally turn on the phantom power without removing the piece of tape.

The 1/8" input on the Microtrack has plug-in power that cannot be turned off, so if you run 4060s through a battery box into the 1/8" input you'll probably get a distorted recording even if the show isn't extremely loud. I couldn't even run my old CSBs directly into my Mictrotrack 1/8" input without an attenuator, and those mics are much less sensitive than 4060s. I ran mine into the 1/4" TRS inputs and in the dozen or so shows I've taped with them so far there was only one that was so loud it was overloading my recorder. It was an unexpectedly loud show though. A song and a half into that show I activated the bass roll-off filter on the MMA6000 preamp as a last resort and the rest of the recording was saved. On playback, even in the first five minutes before I activated the roll-off there is only noticeable distortion in two or three places. At other shows, occasionally I have seen the clipping indicator light up but I haven't had any audible distortion in the recordings. If you get the 4061s, you could probably use the 1/8" input on the Microtrack. Though I would also note that in my experience the TRS inputs are much sturdier, and less likely to unplug accidentally or cause a pop or click in the recording due to shoving in a rough crowd.

With the 4060s, I haven't had to use the gain on the preamp at any of the shows I've done -- which is part of why I want to get one of the smaller battery boxes to use in stealth situations instead of the MMA6000. If you get the 4061s, perhaps you would want a preamp instead of just a battery box for singer/songwriter/jazz shows though. But on the Microtrack you can always turn up the levels there, though that's probably noisier than using an external preamp.

As for running them into your Deneke PS-2, DPA makes adapters that will enable the 406x mics to be powered from standard 48v xlr power supply. Search on google for DPA DAD6001... the problem is, new ones cost about $100 and you need two. If someone has a used pair that you can get cheap go for it, but otherwise (assuming the specs of the battery boxes are similar) I would say it is a better idea to spend $230 for the dedicated DPA power supply than to spend nearly that much just for adapters so you can use it with another power supply. ;)

So... I guess to wrap things up it just depends on which option seems right for you. If you want to be absolutely positive that you're not going to ever run into distortion problem, 4061s are the best choice, but if you want a lower noise floor for quieter recordings, less need (or no need IMO) for a preamp at the medium to loud shows, but more risk of the occasional moment of distortion in very loud conditions, then 4060s are the way to go (especially if you might consider getting a more high-end recorder or an ADC to use the Microtrack as a bit bucket somewhere down the road).
« Last Edit: February 04, 2011, 12:46:46 PM by faninor »

Offline fmaderjr

  • Trade Count: (16)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1966
Re: csc into mt 2?
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2011, 02:48:10 PM »
If you get the 4061s, you could probably use the 1/8" input on the Microtrack. Though I would also note that in my experience the TRS inputs are much sturdier, and less likely to unplug accidentally or cause a pop or click in the recording due to shoving in a rough crowd.

But the TRS inputs will sound better regardless (as long as you have the proper cable that eliminates the possibility of the "sprinkler" noise in the case of the MT2)- the 1/8 input on the MT is not the greatest. The few times I used my old MT 24/96 I eliminated the possibility of overloading the MT by using a preamp capable of attenuation (the CA-900) and got great results with DPA 4060's going line in to the MT 24/96.
AT853's (all caps)/CM-300 Franken Naks (CP-1,2,3)/JBMod Nak 700's (CP-701,702) > Tascam DR-680
Or Sonic Studios DSM-6 > M10

Offline aaronji

  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (9)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *
  • Posts: 3884
Re: csc into mt 2?
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2011, 01:13:27 PM »
As for running them into your Deneke PS-2, DPA makes adapters that will enable the 406x mics to be powered from standard 48v xlr power supply. Search on google for DPA DAD6001... the problem is, new ones cost about $100 and you need two. If someone has a used pair that you can get cheap go for it, but otherwise (assuming the specs of the battery boxes are similar) I would say it is a better idea to spend $230 for the dedicated DPA power supply than to spend nearly that much just for adapters so you can use it with another power supply. ;)

The DAD6001s are more flexible, though.  If the OP eventually wants to switch the PS-2 out for a nice pre, or an all-in-one like a PMD661, those P48 adaptors are nice...

As for overloading the 4060, spec'd at a max SPL of 134 dB before clipping: if that's happening, I hope you are wearing good hearing protection!!!

Offline faninor

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 290
Re: csc into mt 2?
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2011, 02:29:28 PM »
The DAD6001s are more flexible, though.  If the OP eventually wants to switch the PS-2 out for a nice pre, or an all-in-one like a PMD661, those P48 adaptors are nice...

As for overloading the 4060, spec'd at a max SPL of 134 dB before clipping: if that's happening, I hope you are wearing good hearing protection!!!
Yeah, the DAD6001s give you more options. Just depends if you want more flexibility or less gear to carry around and fewer possible points of failure in your rig.

And I do wear earplugs to all shows I go to. I think anyone who tried once would do it all the time. IMO the music is a lot more comprehensible at reasonable volumes.

Offline aaronji

  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (9)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *
  • Posts: 3884
Re: csc into mt 2?
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2011, 08:58:49 PM »
Yeah, the DAD6001s give you more options. Just depends if you want more flexibility or less gear to carry around and fewer possible points of failure in your rig.

I guess so.  Not a whole lot of extra gear, though, and locking connectors on both ends.  I don't think I would lose any sleep over it...

Another option is to get a microdot to 1/8" Y-cable made, then run it through a small 9V battery box.  I think Gutbucket has done this into a CA Ugly.  Probably $60 or $70 for the cable (?) and then $30 - $50 for a battery box, so cheaper than either DAD6001s or an MPS60x0.  I think Chris Church mentioned that he now stocks microdots, so maybe he could do it...Perhaps not the most convenient option if the OP wants to go 1/4" in on his MT, but a possibility nonetheless...

Offline faninor

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 290
Re: csc into mt 2?
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2011, 08:06:42 PM »
Locking connectors is nice, but I'm always a little worried about damage to the microdots and wires near the microdots when I'm recording in crowd. The wires are pretty small -- I'm sure they're built sturdy but that's an area that I try to keep protected. I like the idea of having them right up next to the battery box rather than protruding on the end of an adapter.

 

RSS | Mobile
Page created in 0.065 seconds with 44 queries.
© 2002-2024 Taperssection.com
Powered by SMF