Topic: Zoom H1 XLR 32bit Handy Recorder announced on Aug. 8 2024

[Niels]

[Aug. 8, 2024 - Heading updated with the now known name of the recorder]

It looks like Zoom will announce yet another 32bit portable recorder on August 8.

They are currently running a teaser on Instagram - which is my only Social Media source of information and hype, so it may well be plastered everywhere without me knowing.
Hope this link works: https://www.instagram.com/reel/C-I-s7bozIB/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

Currently there is only a short teaser video clip with the date 08. 08. 24 and the text: Go-Anywhere, Record-Anything.

The video shows what looks like a small form factor recorder with a 32bit sticker and two locking XLR inputs. Screen dump below.

Anyone care to share speculations or maybe even knowledge of what to expect?

I am personally hoping for something with F3 preamps, XLR stereo input as well as 3.5mm stereo jack input (4ch total).

It is difficult for me to see where such a new device could fit into Zoom's current jungle of recorders?
On their homepage today I count 9 "Handy" recorders (H series). 5-6 "Field" recorders (F series). 3 "MicTrack" recorders (M series). 2 portable podcast recorder/mixers (P series).
All battery operated portable recording devices.
And they have many more recording capable units in their current catalogue.

[Sebastian]

This indeed looks like one of their "Handy" recorders. None of their current "H" line recorders can record to 32-bit float as far as I know (forgive me if I'm wrong, they have just too many different recorders to keep track of). So 32-bit might be the big selling point on this, maybe (hopefully!) paired with quieter amps. I guess it is targeted at musicians who want to record their performances without being able to monitor recording levels. Could be a nice "set and forget" device for them. For everybody else (including us tapers), there are probably better and/or smaller options.

[justme]

A quick image adjustment to reveal some details.

[SMsound]

Looks like a bigger uglier F3...   Doesn't appear to have builtin mics.

Now if they had a smaller version of the F3 (drop the metal cage we're all cutting off) or the ability to add an extra 2 channels as mentioned above, that would be interesting...

[tim in jersey]

I'm hoping it won't be horrendoursly ugly.

[Sebastian]

Now if they had a smaller version of the F3 (drop the metal cage we're all cutting off) or the ability to add an extra 2 channels as mentioned above, that would be interesting...

Exactly! Or replace the full-size XLRs with mini-XLRs!

[Ozpeter]

This indeed looks like one of their "Handy" recorders. None of their current "H" line recorders can record to 32-bit float as far as I know (forgive me if I'm wrong, they have just too many different recorders to keep track of)....

Zoom H1essential, H4essential, H6essential - all 32 bit float but reviewers have reservations about the analog side.

[Ozpeter]

XLR Inputs at the top looks ergonomically good to me.  Clear marking of inputs 1 & 2 implies that's all there is.  Maybe it's an XLR version of the H1 series.

[Chilly Brioschi]

I'm hoping it won't be horrendoursly ugly.

It seems to have a 32-Bit Float Inside! label on it, so I think the pooch has already been...

[justme]

XLR Inputs at the top looks ergonomically good to me.  Clear marking of inputs 1 & 2 implies that's all there is.  Maybe it's an XLR version of the H1 series.

Yes it looks like a H1 Essential but with XLR inputs.

Wonder if that’s why the R is visible in the naming scheme?
“Zoom H1XLR”?

[Niels]

Yes, a Handy recorder it is, apparently.

Not what I had hoped for given the alleged lower quality of the Pre-amp of the current Essentials 32bit models.

Anyway, tomorrow is not far away and the NDA’s of the internet reviewers will expire.

[justme]

It appears I guess right.
Googled my name guessing and got a hit.

https://x.com/tonphone/status/1812021596317745429

[SMsound]

I don't get it -- looks like a bigger clunkier F3 with noisier preamps?  It it designed to hit lower pricepoint or why would anyone want this?

[goodcooker]

^ because it has a cyber truck vibe to it?

[Niels]

...It it designed to hit lower pricepoint or why would anyone want this?

According to this person on youtube, who claims to be in-the-know, it will retail for less than $120.
https://youtu.be/JR1FhJ2wpy0?si=lNyTAL1Vrnv8nh1P

[Ozpeter]

https://zoomcorp.com/en/us/handheld-recorders/handheld-recorders/h1-xlr/

Thrre are a few introductory videos on YouTube if you search for the name in quotes.

Runs for 4 hours with phantom power on, so you'd probably need to use a powerbank.  EIN -122 so not amazing on the noise front, as might be expected anyway.

Overall it seems to me to be a reasonable quality well-featured all-round two track device that might suit a wide range of uses and will sell like hot cakes. 

[Niels]

https://zoomcorp.com/en/us/handheld-recorders/handheld-recorders/h1-xlr/

EIN -122 so not amazing on the noise front, as might be expected anyway.

Would anyone care to explain to someone dumb like me: What is the significance of the difference of the noise data published by Zoom:
EIN -122 of the new H1 XLR Handy Recorder
versus
EIN -127 of the F3 recorder?
I don't really know how to understand this difference of 5.

I have the original H1 but can't find official Zoom EIN data as a reference.
I do know that my R-07 was an audible improvement over the H1. Yet, I have no idea by how much in objective numbers.

[Ozpeter]

I'm not the best person to answer that question directly, but I notice that the EIN of this new recorder is marginally better than the Zoom H4essential, (-122 vs -120) which Curtis Judd reviewed on YouTube using a very low noise mic with good output, and he seemed to be happy with that combination in respect of noise.  With low output dynamic mics needing a lot of gain added when editing, he felt the noise was more noticable.  Overall I would say that if the quoted noise figure of the H1 XLR is correct, it is probably as good as you would get at the price.  But perhaps others will disagree...

[Ozpeter]

A couple of links for getting a feel for noise specs -

https://acousticnature.com/journal/what-is-field-recorder-self-noise

https://avisoft.com/recorder-tests/

[IronFilm]

I don't get it -- looks like a bigger clunkier F3 with noisier preamps?  It it designed to hit lower pricepoint or why would anyone want this?

At HALF THE PRICE of a Zoom F3 it's easy to understand why many more casual users (lower tier videographers / "content creators" / hobbyists / indie filmmakers / musicians) could be interested in getting instead the Zoom H1XLR.

[IronFilm]

https://zoomcorp.com/en/us/handheld-recorders/handheld-recorders/h1-xlr/

EIN -122 so not amazing on the noise front, as might be expected anyway.

Would anyone care to explain to someone dumb like me: What is the significance of the difference of the noise data published by Zoom:
EIN -122 of the new H1 XLR Handy Recorder
versus
EIN -127 of the F3 recorder?
I don't really know how to understand this difference of 5.

I have the original H1 but can't find official Zoom EIN data as a reference.
I do know that my R-07 was an audible improvement over the H1. Yet, I have no idea by how much in objective numbers.

dB is logarithmic, thus a 6dB difference is going to be twice as quiet.

So the F3 is  not quite twice as good. (and funnily enough....  the F3 also costs twice as much)

I'm not the best person to answer that question directly, but I notice that the EIN of this new recorder is marginally better than the Zoom H4essential, (-122 vs -120) which Curtis Judd reviewed on YouTube using a very low noise mic with good output, and he seemed to be happy with that combination in respect of noise.  With low output dynamic mics needing a lot of gain added when editing, he felt the noise was more noticable.  Overall I would say that if the quoted noise figure of the H1 XLR is correct, it is probably as good as you would get at the price.  But perhaps others will disagree...

Yes, for the price the the Zoom H1XLR is quite good. Certainly there are many that are better, but at a cost $$$

Tricky to think of anything that's better at a comparable price point?? Don't think the Tascam DR60Dmk2 is? Although that is usually my favorite recommendation at this price point.

Of course if you go secondhand and get a Fostex FR2LE, that would be quieter at an even lower price point.

[justme]

Cheap
Small
Balanced features
32-bit float

You get quite a lot for the money.
The choice of going with full sized XLRs do seems disproportionate but going mini-XLR would cause a lot of hassle to the targeted user.
Low profile XLRs and angled 3,5mm connectors do make it much better handling and size wise.

[datbrad]

There are two features in particular that I don't see in the F3 that caught my eye on this recorder. The mic/line hardware switch on each XLR input, and the ability to adjust the gain per channel (they call it a mixer) are both features I value greatly in a concert recorder. The F3, like most modern recorders, use software to change the gain structure to accomodate a line-in signal, but the signal still
follows the same path through the mic preamp. Like the old Marantz PMD decks I use, a hardware switch changes the circuit path, bypassing the preamp. There is zero reason to put a physical switch where a menu driven control will suffice, should there be any doubters to the benefit of that feature. Also, while "set and forget" is the ethos with 32bit float, the lack of ability to adjust the gain between channels while recording is hard to live with. I can't look at a display with severely out of balance levels during a show and tell myself I can fix it in post.

[Ozpeter]

Also it has a built in normalise feature which can be handy.  On the M2 Mictrak there is also a normalise on playback feature but I don't know if that is also on the H1 XLR device.

[Sebastian]

EIN -122 so not amazing on the noise front, as might be expected anyway.

When taping loud, amplified music (as most people here do), -122 dBu is plenty. I'm happily using a Sony A10, which has an EIN of -116 dBu. When recording quiet bird sounds that require a lot of gain, things might be different. However, many mics are still way noisier than -122 dBu (Schopes MK4 capsules have a signal-to-noise ratio of 80 dB, for example), so this all doesn't matter anyways.

[Kyle K]

I just wish this thing had bluetooth monitoring that worked with Android. Sometimes it's nice to see that I am getting any signal at all -- even if I don't have to adjust levels, there are times it's valuable to see that I am getting levels period (taping up close or from the stage lip but capturing SBD as well).

[Dan33185]

Looking at grabbing one of these, they are $149 on Sweetwater...anyone use this recorder yet or have an opinion on it? I'm deciding between this and the Zoom H4essential at $199, not sure if there is much of a difference between the two for my purposes (external mics or SBD recording).

[yates7592]

This could be just what I'm looking for as a taper of loud concerts with 2 channel gear. Could anyone confirm if the mixer function allows to attenuate the input signal rather than the output signal?

[Niels]

I'm deciding between this and the Zoom H4essential at $199, not sure if there is much of a difference between the two for my purposes (external mics or SBD recording).

The H4e has 4 channels 2xXLR + either Stereo 3.5mm TRS or decent built-in mics that can withstand an SPL of 130 if I remember correctly.
If size doesn’t matter, then the H4e offers quite a bit more for $50 extra IMO.

[Ozpeter]

Last time I looked the H1 XLR was only available for pre-order and there were no independent reviews on YouTube or elsewhere.  In other words, nobody knows... there is a ten minute official video on YT describing its operation which might answer some questions.  But the video seems aimed at beginners.  If I had to summarise it in one sentence I would say that it is aimed at people wanting a very flexible two channel recorder with 32 bit float and slightly quieter preamps than the 'Essential' devices, who would be embarrassed at being seen using a recorder with attached mics, and who can't afford anything more expensive eg F3

[Dan33185]

I ended up going with the H4, seems to be a bit more to it than the H1XLR, and for 50 bucks more, why not?

[TheJez]

There is a quick start manual available:
https://zoomcorp.com/en/jp/handy-recorders/handheld-recorders/h1-xlr/H1XLR-support/

[rastasean]

Interesting product - yet another handy recorder from zoom. At least it's not very large, because it's not all that attractive and looks like plastic.
I do like the option to adjust levels with its mixer and that it has 3.5mm mic in.

Doesn't look like it can record any bit depth except 32 bit.

[Ozpeter]

The Zoom H1 XLR manual is now online and that confirms that it can create either 16 bit or 24 bit files from the 32 bit float originals, while normalising at the same time.  Or it can normalise while retaining 32 bit float.  The original files are retained of course.  So no, it does not record in non-32 bit float but it can provide other formats via internal processing - best of both worlds methinks.

[TheJez]

I'm really beginning to like this recorder as a potential replacement for my slowly breaking down Edirol R09-HR. I'd very much would have liked to have the input stage quality of the F3, but I really dislike the form factor of the F3 for my  purposes. This H1 XLR seems to server that purpose better.
I'm very much looking forward for it's release on October 1st and the hands-on reviews.

I was a bit surprised about the button layout on the front (see attachement), with the 'marker' and 'trashcan' buttons right next to each other! Not that I'm planning to put markers in while taping, but if one would want to, it seems like a risky operation.  . Bless the hold-switch!

[Ozpeter]

Heh!  I have been ploughing my way through the manual and I decided to hop back here to report on a very neat feature which is very relevant to the preceding post - namely that the trashcan icon means exactly that.  Files are not deleted when you use it but are moved to a trash folder.  So you can't accidentally delete a file.  That helps make the facility which it has to trash the file currently being recorded to be perfectly safe.  There is of course a facility to empty the trash can, but you wouldn't do that lightly. 

There is also a neat feature which disables the playback volume control, replacing it with a fixed output level which you can set using a tone yourself.  Dead handy when using other equipment off the line out socket.

[TheJez]

Files are not deleted when you use it but are moved to a trash folder.  So you can't accidentally delete a file.

That is true, so you won't lose your recording made so far. However, it does stop the recording too. So besides the 'normal' stop button, there is another button (right next to the 'marker' button) that also stops recording... I think I personally would have designed it differently, but it's not a dealbreaker for me. Fortunately the hold button's there to protect me...

[Ozpeter]

Call me crazy but I have ordered one from Amazon Japan.  Well, I guess I don't have to explain gear lust to you good people.  For me, it will be a final fling I think.  I hardly ever record anything these days!  And I am trying to downsize for total retirement.  So I will keep one recorder with built in mics, and this new one for XLR connectivity, and that will be that.

[rastasean]

No explanation or justification necessary, Ozpeter.

Is the order a preorder or should you be receiving it this month?

The price is appealing and its form factor looks better than the F3, but I never saw one of those in person.

I think it's probably best there are no internal mics, since it would 100% recording handling noises.

[Ozpeter]

It is due here on Thursday - we shall see... due to certain commitments it will take me a few days to upload a review to YouTube, but of course I will post first impressions here asap.

[TheJez]

Wow, I'm looking forward for your hands-on experiences! I am a bit surprised if it would arrive so soon, as the zoom webshop tells the devices will be available from October 1st... I really hope you'll receive it sooner, though!

[Ozpeter]

Some people in Japan are reviewing theirs on YouTube although I don't think they have actually used it meaningfully yet.  I think the release date given by Zoom relates to countries outside Japan.

[PineappleWhiteOwl]

Looking forward to your review OzPeter!

[Ozpeter]

Hmmm.  No charged yet, not sent yet, and listed as 'temporarily out of stock, place order and we will email you when stock arrives' or words to that effect.  Watch This Space...

[Ozpeter]

https://youtu.be/ZumIuht7GZ0?si=L8XcNa44egfEjaoX

Towards the end of this review there are some sound samples - which I have only listened to with the audio muted but the visuals look like the audio might be interesting.  (How can one listen to something with the audio muted? Well, it's complicated.... )

[TheJez]

Some screenshots from another 'unboxing video' show that it doesn't seem to be that much smaller than an F3, when looking at the widest and thickest parts of the device...

[unidentified]

Some screenshots from another 'unboxing video' show that it doesn't seem to be that much smaller than an F3, when looking at the widest and thickest parts of the device...

I would opt for the F3 with its superior preamps. You can always get an XLR to 3.5 adapter.

[Ozpeter]

Personally I couldn't cost justify the price of the F3, but indeed it has a superior specification.  The H1 XLR is perhaps more flexible out of the box.  Horses for courses...

[Sebastian]

I guess the size is just limited by the size of the XLR connectors.

[Ozpeter]

"Some screenshots from another 'unboxing video' show that it doesn't seem to be that much smaller than an F3, when looking at the widest and thickest parts of the device..."

I think that should have read 'not much larger than the F3' - I don't think it is smaller.

[TheJez]

"Some screenshots from another 'unboxing video' show that it doesn't seem to be that much smaller than an F3, when looking at the widest and thickest parts of the device..."

I think that should have read 'not much larger than the F3' - I don't think it is smaller.

Yeah, well, I have been considering the F3 for a while, but really dislike its form factor for  purposes. When the H1XLR was announced, I expected it would fit better in pockets etc than the F3. Hence my indeed incorrect wording 'smaller'. I actually meant 'a more pleasant form factor'. But now, looking at the pictures, I'm not so sure anymore if it's a big improvement for  purposes.
If they would just make this device without XLR... Or a stereo F2 with F3 input specs...

[Niels]

I can’t seem to find data indicating this unit can be controlled via BlueTooth.
Is that correctly observed?
If so, that is very unfortunate IMO.

[Dan33185]

I can’t seem to find data indicating this unit can be controlled via BlueTooth.
Is that correctly observed?
If so, that is very unfortunate IMO.

Doesn't look like it

https://zoomcorp.com/en/us/accessories/power-accessories/BTA-1/


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[Ozpeter]

My order from Amazon Japan seems now to be on hold, waiting supplies.  Hmmm. I hope they haven't run into the kind of production problems which plagued the first run of the Mictrak devices.  Those had serious rf noise breakthrough problems which caused Zoom to refund early purchases.  Sadly the scathing YouTube reviews are still up despite the problems being fixed in the replacement devices.  Which is probably why the M2 device is going very cheap (or was when I bought mine).

[Ozpeter]

Now Amazon Japan have dropped the price by 11% - to the equivalent of about $110 US - but... still on backorder.  Hopefully if they eventually send mine I'll get that lower price charged.

[Ozpeter]

And now they have said that the H1 XLR can't be shipped to my country.  Oh well.  I'll await eventual availability here.  Maybe check out some serious reviews before leaping in.

[TheJez]

And now they have said that the H1 XLR can't be shipped to my country.  Oh well.  I'll await eventual availability here.  Maybe check out some serious reviews before leaping in.

Oh, I'm sorry to hear that! Not completely unexpected, though, and they could have told you that earlier. Indeed I'm waiting too for proper reviews before choosing this one, the F3 or maybe the upcoming Tascam to replace my good ol' R-09HR...

[TheJez]

This Swiss webshop is claiming it's selling the upcoming H1XLR for only CHF 94,- which equals to roughly US$ 111,-  I think they accidentally put the H1Essential price tag onto this one...
https://www.upbeat.ch/shop/de/8226-digital-recording/mobile-recorder/zoom-h1xlr.html

[rastasean]

Ozpeter, any news on yours shipping to you?

BHPhoto says H! XRL will be in stock  mid October.

[Niels]

This Swiss webshop is claiming it's selling the upcoming H1XLR for only CHF 94,- which equals to roughly US$ 111,-  I think they accidentally put the H1Essential price tag onto this one...
https://www.upbeat.ch/shop/de/8226-digital-recording/mobile-recorder/zoom-h1xlr.html

It is selling for the equivalent of US$ 115 in Japan - that’s including 10% Japanese VAT.

[Ozpeter]

Ozpeter, any news on yours shipping to you?

BHPhoto says H! XRL will be in stock  mid October.

As mentioned above, they told me it can't be shipped to Australia.  Then a couple of days ago they sent me another message saying that there is still a delay in despatch.  So... heaven, and Amazon, only knows. 

[rastasean]

Looks like the recorder is now shipping via amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DBLF9PVF

[Ozpeter]

Today my bank told me that Amazon Japan have now charged my account $215AU for this device despite them saying the order was cancelled.  Their site says the order is being prepared and delivery date is not yet known.  Well, although I could probably cancel the order, I'll see what happens.  I can't complain at the price...

[Ozpeter]

And now DHL say my device should arrive on Friday!  Delivery cost was included in the price.  I will try to get some kind of review with samples up on YouTube as soon as I can - if anyone has any requests let me know - I will try to demonstrate real-world dynamic range / self noise as best I can, very likely using a Sennheiser MKH MS rig.  No, it doesn't support MS monitoring but there's nothing to stop MS recording of course.  I will also make a list of the interesting ancillary features from the manual and try to show them in use.  As far as I remember, the last device I bought with XLR inputs was a Tascam DR40 recorder, the original version before the mark 2 came out.  And I've never used it...

[rastasean]

Nice, I bet you're anxious to get this in your hands to try out during the weekend.

Maybe a some ideas of tests to run - how long does the battery last; external power - does internal battery get used first or external power; how does it work connecting to mobile device and computer; power on time; can you adjust levels during recording?

Thanks for any of these you're willing to do.

[Ozpeter]

Sure, Rastascan, I will do my best to cover those questions as soon as I can.  Sadly my personal life is kind of complicated at the moment and I'm living daily in two houses 50km apart, so I am going to have to review the device here are (later) on YouTube in a fragmentary fashion. 

Anyway - it's arrived, quite possibly being the first to get to Australia (it's not on sale here yet).

I haven't even had a chance to turn it on yet, but before I take that significant and necessary step, here are some initial reactions and observations.

Firstly - it's tiny.  If I put it down on my mobile phone, the phone is about 30% bigger (Pixel 7).  Of course it's fatter (deeper).  Generally it's kind of the size of my PC mouse.  Probably the size is dictated by the XLR connectors and the batteries.  It weighs hardly anything.  It's chunky angular shape actually goes well in the hand.  It seems hard to drop.  And actually it has a lanyard strap hole. Underneath it has chunky rubber feet, and on my wooden dining table it really, really doesn't want to slip and slide. XLR cables are unlikely to make it move around even though it is so light.

The kind of downside of the size is that the controls are miniscule and I can cover all the transport controls with one thumb. But having said that, when using an index finger on them they are spaced sufficiently that I would not expect misoperation to happen.  Likewise the display is tiny too   That can disappear under my flat index finger.  Perhaps this is why they have gone to so much trouble with voice assist for those with limited or no eyesight.  I might need that myself even with my strongest glasses on!  But bear in mind I haven't seen it illuminated yet. 

The press button controls only move a tiny bit.  The record button is slightly recessed, which is good as it is also the stop button.  There is a traditional "hold" switch.  The switches for things like input selection and suchlike feel a bit kind of flimsy but they are also very small. 

Overall I can't help in my mind comparing it with the reel to reel recorders of my youth, which I could hardly lift, and whose quality would probably be blown away by this tiny device.  I have seen a lot of technical progress in my 60+ years of sound reccording!

Next I will insert batteries, turn it on, and do the initial setup.  (That stuff has already been covered by Zoom official videos on YouTube so I won't describe it in detail).

Watch this space....

[Ozpeter]

MicroSD card slot seems fine, I mean the door.  No complaints there.  Battery door is eaay to open quickly but snaps shut with a positive feel.

And it's on.  The display couldn't be smaller and still be usable.  I have to use my strongest reading glasses.  But it's ok, bright and contrasty - just... small.  Menu item selection is quick and easy and fingers seem to fall naturally onto the right buttons.  Only comment so far is that there is a setting to turn off phantom power on both inputs, but it seems necessary then to turn it back on one input at a time.  A toggle would have been more intuitive.

Boot time is something like 6 seconds.

Next test, connecting a mic.  A stereo one.  Superlux S502, original version, not modified, not ever used since I bought it about 10 years ago.  It's all I could bring from the other house where all my gear is.  But tomorrow I plan to do some more serious tests using a Sennheiser MS pair, MKH30/40.  No, the recorder does not (yet?) support MS playback but that doesn't stop MS recording of course.  That test will be a case of using a $219 recorder to record a $5000 mic rig (AU dollars).  It will be interesting!  But the Superlux is perhaps a value-for-money mic being used with a value for money recorder.

[Ozpeter]

OK, first test recordings made in domestic situation.  But that's ok, I can tell a fair bit from that.  Overall I have no adverse comments to make at all.  I took it for a walk into the almost windless garden but of course with a decent mic, "almost" doesn't work.  The gentle air movement was enough to cause to distinct rumble - but it was pretty bassy rumble.  Next I walked up to the tumble drier and turned that on - which makes a dinging sound or two before it gets going - and then recorded its rumbly sound from about an inch away.  Then I left it running while walking to the far end of the house.  Playing back with the headphone level as loud as I cared to have it, I could hear no system noise, and no distortion.  But bear in mind that I'm 75 and my ability to hear high frequencies is compromised.  The headphones I was using were Sennheiser SD25-1 II cans and the available monitoring and playback level in those was fine even without normalising the volume, which can be done in the device. 

[This paragraph is totally wrong!  You DO get two separate mono files when reccording two mono inputs]  There were two unexpected things.  Firstly when the input it set to two mono inputs, you don't get two mono files - you get one, a mix of the two inputs into one mono file, via the mixer facility which specifies their relative balance.  I completely misunderstood that.  If you want stereo, you have to set it to... stereo.  Embarrasingly I gave someone on YouTube some really wrong advice about this which I will have to correct.

The other unexpected thing was a channel reversal situation, which I thought might be to do with the Zoom, but having checked further, the red connector from the Superlux is the left channel, not the right channel as I would normally expect.  Nothing to do with the Zoom.

I have also tested the built in normalise function.  This seems slow compared to that function on the Zoom M2 and M3 devices, but that's subjective.  I will look into that in more detail in due course.  This could reflect the processing power of the CPU of the device, which being very cheap might not have a lot of grunt.  Dunno...  Playing the normalised file at volume setting of 70 / 100, with these cans, was plenty loud enough.  Once again, I could hear no noise artifacts, nor distortion.

Overall feeling at this point, albeit probably premature, is that this miniscule device can record just as well as anything I used in my days as a classical music recording engineer, recording live events and CDs.  As memory serves me I started with a hired F1/SLF1 setup, then moved to Sony DAT machines, of which I think I had one of the first 50 in the UK.  Then I went to Sony portable DAT, and from there to HHB Portadat.  Then to Roland R-44 unless I'm forgetting something in between. . I don't think this Zoom would be significantly more noisy than any of those devices, and these days you can expect a flat frequency response from just about anything.  But if I now came out of retirement and turned up to a gig with this mouse sized device as the recorder, I could imagine the client would fall about laughing. And then walk out...  Unless they actually heard some rehearsal playback.

Please note that I am not saying it's the greatest, of course it isn't, but I'm just reflecting how the size and price point has got to a place I would never have dreamed of back in the day.

Tomorrow I have about four hours spare, at my house with all my other gear, and I hope to be able to upload something so that you can say, "Man, are you totally deaf?"  But hopefully not...

[Ozpeter]

And I am 95% certain that I can mount the Sennheiser MS pair direct to the H1 XLR device, no cables needed, to make a one-piece rig that could be put up in front of any acoustic ensemble to make a remarkably good fuss free recording...  I guess a USB power supply at the bottom of the mic stand would be prudent but still, it would be very simple.

[Ozpeter]

Other features I like -

The low cut cutoff frequency can be set to OFF, 80 Hz, 160 Hz or 240 Hz.

Output level to another device, eg camera, can be set as a fixed value which disables the volume control.  It can be set from −40 to +40.  It can be set using a built in tone generator.  The test tone is a 1kHz sine wave at -20 dBFS.

The recorder can output a sync tone at the start of each recording to assist in syncing to a video camera.   Poor man's timecode...

If you are recording your own performance you can set a delayed start.  The following times can be selected. Off, 3 sec, 5 sec, 10 sec   Just make sure it's set to "off" for live performance recording!

Alternatively the recorder can be set to start up to an hour after the record button is pressed, in one minute increments. This could be handy if you want to use the recorder at the foot of a mic stand unattended in a concert situation.  Set the timer before the audience comes in.

"Files are automatically saved at regular intervals during recording. If the power is interrupted or another problem occurs during recording, an affected file can be restored to normal by turning on the power again."

The device uses a trash folder for deleted files, in case you delete something you actually needed...

Normalising - If a recording continued for a long time and was split into multiple files, the volume will be adjusted based on the maximum level of all files in the series.  Handy.

You can feed a suitable USB device with a 32 bit stream to back up the recording in real time entirely in the digital domain.

[adrianb]

And I am 95% certain that I can mount the Sennheiser MS pair direct to the H1 XLR device, no cables needed, to make a one-piece rig that could be put up in front of any acoustic ensemble to make a remarkably good fuss free recording...  I guess a USB power supply at the bottom of the mic stand would be prudent but still, it would be very simple.

For some time I’ve been hoping for some 120 degree (or adjustable) XLR adapters to appear so I can do this with my MKH8040 mics.

Do you know what the PIP voltage of the H1 is?

[rastasean]

Thanks for your thoughts on the recorder. How do you like the menu system?

[Ozpeter]

Plug-in power2.5 V according to the manual.   I have yet to try that input.  Maybe tomorrow... meanwhile I have done the MKH30/40 direct connect test and indeed it works very well.  What a weird thing to be able to turn those mics into a one piece hand held recording rig!  I had to use two 90 degree adapters to separate the mics -both adapters on one mic - the other connected via a male to female adapter - without the right angle ones they were too close, touching.  With the adapters they were probably too far apart to satisfy purists but it sounded good to me.  The capsules were in line though.  I had to turn the raw MS into XY using the DAW but that was the work of a moment.  Then I normalised the result.  The test involved putting on loud music and holding the mics right up to the speakers.  Then walking out of the room into a different one, and from there turning off the speakers remotely to provide a silent contrast.  To check it, I had to find a really quiet spot in the house to play it on headphones turned up loud.  I heard no distortion (and using the DAW I zoomed right in to the waveform at its peak to verify), and I heard no noise apart from house noise.  The only caveat being my questionable hearing.  I will do my best to turn that experiment or another into a YouTube video in the morning and will link here. 

[Ozpeter]

Thanks for your thoughts on the recorder. How do you like the menu system?

It's fine, very intuitive in use.  Because the buttons are so close together there's no point in looking at them, so I can just focus on the screen.  I noticed one thing that was odd, just a couple of options reversed in one context compared to another one but that was of no consequence.  When making selections the buttons have very little travel but at the same time they have enough resistance to avoid misoperation.

Overall my only gripe with the device is lack of MS decode support, which I am sure would be no big deal for them to add, but unless they see a demand I don't suppose they will bother.

I've never used a 32 bit float device with mic inputs before, but just on the basis of my tests I don't see any need to want to change the levels.  Somehow it seems just fine.  I guess it helps that the headphone output is reasonably beefy, so you can change the level on replay easily that way, or while monitoring.  I might do some tests though to see what happens if you use the mixer screen to jack up the level to the max - will it overload?  Probably not.  I hope my neighbours will tolerate the loud music I will be playing tomorrow....

[Ozpeter]

Here's my video "review" which I had to do in a great hurry.  (This is on my non-monetized channel and I paid for the device with my own money).

https://youtu.be/u-uYC7cIbR4

I'd be interested in any opinions of course.  What I do need to re-test is the noise level when I'm not holding the sensitive mics in my hand.  I strongly suspect that the slight rumble comes from my blood and muscles but I do need to prove that.  I will report as soon as I can, but any further testing may be a day or two away, unfortunately.

[rastasean]

Hi Peter,

Greatly appreciate the video and audio demonstration. That's a small little puppy, looks like the length of the Sony A10 but the screen looks smaller.
Since people here are talking about the deity battery cover door, how is the door on this recorder? Looks pretty sturdy in the video.

I'm afraid I heard a little of what I'm assuming is RF interference starting about here and getting louder later on: https://youtu.be/u-uYC7cIbR4?feature=shared&t=804

It mostly seems to be on the left channel. Are you able to hear it? Would you be able to do with Curtis Judd does and wave your phone around the recorder and mics while its in use (making a call)? If i recall correctly, I think the Zoom m4 recorders or something had a similar problem with RF sounds.

[AbbyTaper]

Man, that thing really is tiny!  Nice to see another taper in my age range!   

[Ozpeter]

Hi Peter

I'm afraid I heard a little of what I'm assuming is RF interference starting about here and getting louder later on: https://youtu.be/u-uYC7cIbR4?feature=shared&t=804

Thanks, yes, now that you mention it, indeed there is a tone audible in that section (actually starts earlier than the point you identified).  I am now at the other house which lacks most things technical - the only way I could play the video using headphones was via a Quest 3 VR headset I brought with me! - so I may not be able to test further for a couple of days.  But I do have the new toy with me, with the Superlux mics, and if I can crank up the playback to a seriously loud level by normalising in device, I will see what I can hear, having recorded with my phone beside me.  I don't think it was very close during the test.  It is possible the noise was the fridge or something of that sort... we'll see.

Yes, the door does seem to be sturdy and shuts positively.  I did mention that as a plus point earlier, in other words, it was good enough to deserve a mention.

[Ozpeter]

Man, that thing really is tiny!  Nice to see another taper in my age range!   

That is the problem with being our age.  The girls say what you just said... 

[Ozpeter]

Well, given the choice between testing the H1 XLR again and sweeping the yard, I chose the former option.  I connected the Superlux stereo mic to the recorder in the quietest room in this suruban house, and recorded about a minute of 'silent' audio.  Part way through I fetched my phone from across the room, and sat the recorder right on top of it, with the phone screen on.  Immediately I could hear rapid ticks, but not any kind of tone.  As soon as I put the phone in my pocket with the screen off, there was nothing at all.  I'd say this would not be a problem, unless the user reallly, really wants to have their phone under the recorder... Also I could not hear any tone, nor any of the rumble I got with the Sennheiser mics when hand held.  The Superlux was just laid on a bed, untouched.

I get the feeling that the headphone output on this device is more powerful than most.  Turned fully up there really was little need to normalise the 'silent' recording - it was plenty loud enough 'out of the box'.  I did that anyway just to be sure.  That resulted in a level which almost damaged my ears when I reached the place when I had very softly whispered that the phone had been placed beneath the recorder.  In due course I will upload a  test of that kind but right now I don't have the means to do so here.  I really would like younger ears to confirm that the system noise is so low as to be of no consequence at all for any kind of music recording.  Or speech for that matter. 

[AbbyTaper]

Man, that thing really is tiny!  Nice to see another taper in my age range!   

That is the problem with being our age.  The girls say what you just said... 

Hilarious!

[Ozpeter]

Just adding that tonight in the quiet early hours of the morning I did some tests in the house and garden with the Superlux S502 and could identify no adverse noise issues.  I had my phone in my pocket.  I even did the "under the pillow on the bed" test and heard nothing suspicious even when normalised.  At the end of that test I dropped a cotton earbud onto the pillow from about 2 feet up, and the resulting highly amplified thump almost made me jump!  Yes, you can get quieter recorders but for my likely uses there would be no point. 

[rastasean]

Thanks for all the testing you've been able to do in your limited time.

some questions...
When you're doing the listening of the recordings, is it via headphones on the recorder, or are you copying the files over to your computer?
I didn't see see a speaker on the recorder, does it have one? IME, most of the small speakers are impractical anyway.
When the hold/lock is engaged, I'm assuming all button controls are locked out?
When you copy the files over to your computer, was it a fast transfer or slow? The Tascam FR-AV2 has usb-C connection but internally it's usb2 speeds, so transfers are slower.

Happy to hear you didn't detect any more RF sounds. And yes, the video you posted seemed to have clean audio and no hiss. I had headphones on and volume all the way up.

[Ozpeter]

To answer those questions -

I have made recordings so far using the Sennheiser MS rig and a Superlux S502.  I have only played the S502 recordings using the H1 XLR headphone output (as that was the only option at the time and place).  The headphone output seems subjectively to be more powerful than normal.  I have not used the tiny built in speaker yet.  I would expect it to show that there was something on the recording but otherwise its use would be limited.  But yes, I should try it and I will.  The MS recording won't decode on the device so I loaded that into Reaper and used Voxengo MSED VST on the track, then listened through headphones from the PC.

As memory serves me from two days ago (!) I transferred the audio by taking out the card.  I think the USB output is specified as standard rather than fast.  The door to the card slot on the device inspires confidence that it won't wear out fast with frequent use.  A sidenote - when I started making the video itself with my DJI Pocket 3, I got card write error messages on that device which I fixed by taking out the card and putting it back.  It hadn't been used for two or three weeks.  That makes me wonder whether it can actually assist card functionality if it is taken out and reinserted from time to time, rather than doing USB transfers.  Guesswork I admit.

Yes, hold is the usual full lock - but does it lock the "mark" button?  I will check.

[Ozpeter]

Meanwhile, Curtis Judd has published a YouTube comparative review of the F3 vs the H1 XLR.  It really makes me angry.  The review is substantially based on noise measurements taken in a studio environment, which is not where 99% of users will be using the devices (field recorders).  The review does not, as far as I can see, include a single sample from either recorder.  In my real-world tests, self noise is not a practical issue.  Why on earth would he publish a review where he does not allow viewers to make up their own minds based on actual recordings?  I would lay money that if he had uploaded comparative samples from the two recorders without identifying which was which, very few people would have got the answer right. 

Sadly the review has received thousands of views, and many of the comments are scathing about the H1 XLR, based on what they have just been told.  No, it is not the world's best recorder.  Yes, the F3 at twice the price (usually) is, on paper at least, the better device.  But I would be sad if people now didn't buy the H1 XLR who might actually have been perfectly happy with it as a device whose capabilities are perfectly adequate for most whose budgets don'r extend to more expensive kit. 

[rastasean]

Curtis also had this live stream today regarding the recorder: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQ8kJxUPMlk

differences with F3:
no timecode sync
all plastic body
lower price
different form factor
has 3.5mm input (f3 does not)
shared headphone/line output (f3 has one of each)
cleaner pre-amps in f3

[Ozpeter]

Correction to my previous post - it has been pointed out to me that the entire review posted by Curtis Judd was recorded on the H1 XLR.

I apologised to him for not understanding that, which in fact he stated clearly at the start of the video... oops. I also typed up a lot of stuff related to noise floors in general with reference to the Avisoft site, but my comment has not appeared for some reason.  But having revived my knowledge of that site, I plan to make a new topic related to it here.  Shortly, I hope.  But first I will rewatch the Curtis Judd video, wearing headphones, and see if I can hear the noise that makes him not recommend this device.

[rastasean]

I don't hear a lot of self noise in his video. He doesn't have a lot of pregnant pauses for me to distinguish from self noise or room noise in his recording.

I will agree that it's really strange you CANNOT adjust the fader while recording. I seem to recall reading the zoom f3 is like that as well. At least with the tascam fr-av2 you're able to adjust it.

Please let me know if you hear any of the self noise!

[Ozpeter]

I couldn't hear any self noise in his video either.  He suggested comparing this video with his earlier one where he used a different mic, which to me is not a level playing field comparison.  I cannot believe that even in a commercial environment that a client would complain. 

I do understand the concept of wanting the best, even if it makes no actual difference, but no way would I make a purchasing decision based on self noise when comparing this one with the F3.  Yes, the F3 is better on noise, on paper, but with a real world field recording any self noise would be totally swamped by background location noise.  And for taping gigs from the tapers section, the F3 would be no better when it comes to audible noise.  Of course there are many other factors when making the choice.  But I'd start with.... the price!

[Ozpeter]

some questions...

When the hold/lock is engaged, I'm assuming all button controls are locked out?

The hold switch locks all the buttons on the top panel, including the mark button (not ideal but nevermind).  It does not lock the mic/line buttons for the XLR inputs, so in theory you could stuff up a recording by accidentally moving one of those switches.

[mepaca]

And I am 95% certain that I can mount the Sennheiser MS pair direct to the H1 XLR device, no cables needed, to make a one-piece rig that could be put up in front of any acoustic ensemble to make a remarkably good fuss free recording...  I guess a USB power supply at the bottom of the mic stand would be prudent but still, it would be very simple.

Do you have the new mkh 8030 figure of 8 microphone. I have the 8040 cardioids and am sorely tempted.

[adrianb]

Do you have the new mkh 8030 figure of 8 microphone. I have the 8040 cardioids and am sorely tempted.

I’ve been desperately searching for 120 degree XLR adapters so I can plug my 8040 cardioids directly into a recorder like this Zoom and create the ultimate portable, but it seems only 90 degrees are available.

[Ozpeter]

And I am 95% certain that I can mount the Sennheiser MS pair direct to the H1 XLR device, no cables needed, to make a one-piece rig that could be put up in front of any acoustic ensemble to make a remarkably good fuss free recording...  I guess a USB power supply at the bottom of the mic stand would be prudent but still, it would be very simple.

Do you have the new mkh 8030 figure of 8 microphone. I have the 8040 cardioids and am sorely tempted.

Sorry, no.  The last time I bought a MKH mic was in 1984.  Or thereabouts.  Expensive, but divide the cost by 40 years and the per annum figure isn't too bad...

[Ozpeter]

Do you have the new mkh 8030 figure of 8 microphone. I have the 8040 cardioids and am sorely tempted.

I’ve been desperately searching for 120 degree XLR adapters so I can plug my 8040 cardioids directly into a recorder like this Zoom and create the ultimate portable, but it seems only 90 degrees are available.

Yes!  Me too!  if you find one, with rotatable connectors, do tell me!  Meanwhile I am tending to use my Superlux S502 for tests, though of course that does require a cable.  I am also going to test a couple of Naiant omnis built into XLR connectors, using the right angle adapters, but I suspect the stereo image will be poor at best.

[rastasean]

Peter, are you still enjoying the recorder, or do you have any buyer's remorse. What's your thoughts and feelings of the battery life after having it for several days now? Still holding a good amount of power?

[Ozpeter]

Peter, are you still enjoying the recorder, or do you have any buyer's remorse. What's your thoughts and feelings of the battery life after having it for several days now? Still holding a good amount of power?

Currently, personal issues are limiting my opportunities to really use the device but I will try to run a battery test today.  Generally I love it.  Downsides - slow export of normalised files - slower than real time.  But for me, not a big issue.  No M/S decoding.  Maybe they will add that.  You previously asked about changing level during recording, but in a 32 bit float device equipped only with the means to modify the a/d output, you would only want to do that if for some reason you wanted to use the recording immediately, for instance in a news broadcast.  It would be far safer to tinker with recorded levels in editing later.  So although the device can't do that, I almost regard that inability to be a positive feature.  I can't imagine ever altering the device mixer settings even before hitting the record button. Ymmv!

[jj69]

Has anyone been able to determine whether the preamps in the H1 XLR are any different from those in the H1 Essential, or whether there is any reason to think the sonic performance of this new model would exceed the Essential?  If the two units have identical preamps, I'm assuming there is little reason to upgrade if you have no intention of using the XLR jacks? 

[rastasean]

Peter, are you still enjoying the recorder, or do you have any buyer's remorse. What's your thoughts and feelings of the battery life after having it for several days now? Still holding a good amount of power?

Currently, personal issues are limiting my opportunities to really use the device but I will try to run a battery test today.  Generally I love it.  Downsides - slow export of normalised files - slower than real time.  But for me, not a big issue.  No M/S decoding.  Maybe they will add that.  You previously asked about changing level during recording, but in a 32 bit float device equipped only with the means to modify the a/d output, you would only want to do that if for some reason you wanted to use the recording immediately, for instance in a news broadcast.  It would be far safer to tinker with recorded levels in editing later.  So although the device can't do that, I almost regard that inability to be a positive feature.  I can't imagine ever altering the device mixer settings even before hitting the record button. Ymmv!

Thanks for the feedback, Peter.

> You previously asked about changing level during recording, but in a 32 bit float device equipped only with the means to modify the a/d output, you would only want to do that if for some reason you wanted to use the recording immediately, for instance in a news broadcast.

Right, but Curtis says the F3 has a fader to adjust levels and the FR-AV2 does as well. The reason I ask about this is for purposes of an interview. and I know it's not practical to the purposes of taping, but Zoom calls this recorder the "record everything recorder". The idea i had in mind was two lavs. While Person A is speaking the levels on B could be lowered to mute coughs, throat clears, mhmm stuff, etc. Moving that process to post seems like the only way to handle it with this recorder.

I recall Curtis being a little dumbfounded that it doesn't have a fader but the F3 does.

I think I would trade the normalized files for M/S decoding and a fader option.

[Niels]

Thanks @ozpeter for your reports.

This recorder sounds like an amazing value.
If would only be using it for taping, I would get it in a heartbeat.

I am not sure the pre-amps will be quiet enough for my field recording usage, though.

[Ozpeter]

I have at last sacrificed a pair of ordinary supermarket alkaline batteries.  In other words, they are unlikely to have unusual capacity.  The continuous recording from a Superlux S502 stereo mic, phantom power on, ran for 4 hours and 6 minutes.  It created two files of almost 1 hour 34  mins each, and one file of 59 mins.  But the same batteries had also done my previous tests, which perhaps accounted to 20 minutes of intermittent use.  So to record a typical live event, that's all you would need, I'd say.  Of course with more fancy batteries you'd get longer time. 

Niels, can you suggest something I could record, ideally with that Superlux mic, that might indicate whether it would be any good for field recording?  I have no immediate prospect of being able to go somewhere rural but suburban background noise after midnight would be possible, which I might get the chance to upload to YouTube in about a week.  But as you would not be familiar with the context, the environment, I am not sure it would be meaningful.  Also I only have foam covers for the mics which really don't help with actual wind noise.  Hmmm...

I do have a plan to record some music from a source connected to a Mackie mixer which has mic level outputs.  Feed in some loud music then mute the input channels of the Mackie.  What would then be recorded would be the output noise of the mixer plus the input noise of the recorder.  Then I'd normalise it, and when played back through headphones such that the music part was as loud as you'd care to listen, would the worst-case-scenario muted-source noise be audible, or rather significantly audible?  If it could be heard, the point would be moot as it would not be possible to say whether the recorder or the Mackie was creating the noise.  But if it was, in practice, silent, then that would show that self noise would not be a problem with the recorder alone, at least in the context of music recording eg classical music under concert conditions in a church or hall.

[Ozpeter]

And another thing... I just listened to some extracts from the 4 hour battery test recording.  When I made that, I simply rested the mic on a bed with the capsules point upwards.  I left the bedroom, and pulled the door to, not totally closing it.  Then - I was reminded listening to the recording - I went into the toilet which is a short way down the corridor from the bedroom, and... you can hear everything, blush, (and flush), including the sound of me zipping up my trousers very clearly.  Now to hear that, and later parts when you can clearly hear the sounds of people talking in the lounge at the other end of this single storey 4 bedroom house, I turned the playback volume through the headphones up to 100.   But when I later played an earlier test file of loud music recorded undistorted right up by the hifi speakers, I almost damaged my hearing.  Playback at 60 was about right for that.  So then listening to the battery life (toilet) recording on the same playback volume, (60), I could not really hear anything.  So... the available dynamic range is pretty huge, and I am finding it hard to imagine a scenario outside of the realm of specialised field recording where noise would be of the slightest significance.  In fact, I am starting to wonder whether the whole focus with modern portable recorders on their noise performance is completely misplaced.  Or my elderly hearing really is totally shot...

[Niels]

Niels, can you suggest something I could record, ideally with that Superlux mic, that might indicate whether it would be any good for field recording?  I have no immediate prospect of being able to go somewhere rural but suburban background noise after midnight would be possible, which I might get the chance to upload to YouTube in about a week.  But as you would not be familiar with the context, the environment, I am not sure it would be meaningful.  Also I only have foam covers for the mics which really don't help with actual wind noise.  Hmmm...

Peter, that is a very nice offer, thanks! But as you correctly point out, it will be difficult to evaluate the recording without knowledge of the environment.
I have a local acquaintance who is considering getting the H1 XLR, and I'll see if I can borrow it if he does.

[rastasean]

> And another thing... I just listened to some extracts from the 4 hour battery test recording.  When I made that, I simply rested the mic on a bed with the capsules point upwards.

Any chance you could share snippets of the recordings you made during the battery test?

[Ozpeter]

> And another thing... I just listened to some extracts from the 4 hour battery test recording.  When I made that, I simply rested the mic on a bed with the capsules point upwards.

Any chance you could share snippets of the recordings you made during the battery test?

Sadly not for some days due to being absent from home.  But I will try as soon as I can.  Actually the toilet snippet would be the most illustrative...

Meanwhile I left the device recording overnight, powered by a 10,000 powerbank.  After about 8 hours, the powerbank was down one light out of four (3 still on), at which I turned the recorder off.  Clearly such powering would last as long as 99% of users would ever need. 

During the test my heavy breathing from about 1.5m away was clearly audible, and then I started to snore... 

When I first did the playback, I was stunned at how silent the room noise was.  Then I noticed that the headphones I was wearing were not connected...

[rastasean]

No worries about the delay in doing the recordings.

With your latest battery test, was that with the superlux mics plugged in with phantom power?

[Ozpeter]

No worries about the delay in doing the recordings.

With your latest battery test, was that with the superlux mics plugged in with phantom power?

Yes, sorry, I should have made that clear.

And - see https://soundcloud.com/marco-pesente/zoom-f3-vs-h1xlr-first-as-recorded-than-normalized which is an interesting test - where the H1 XLR seemed almost to come off better than the F3 when it comes to noise, which is actually unlikely, but still, it's an interesting test which shows, to me, that the H1 XLR is no disaster in this matter.

[Ozpeter]

Briefly, I had a chance to try my Roland in ear binaural mics connected to the H1 XLR today - sorry no samples available - but the outcome was just fine.  I had to keep the output level down to 70 to avoid feedback - to my mind that output is quite powerful.  I also tried a USB mic with the audio interface option turned on, just in case there is an undocumented ability to support such devices - but no, it did nothing.

[adrianb]

I’ve been desperately searching for 120 degree XLR adapters so I can plug my 8040 cardioids directly into a recorder like this Zoom and create the ultimate portable, but it seems only 90 degrees are available.

Yes!  Me too!  if you find one, with rotatable connectors, do tell me!  Meanwhile I am tending to use my Superlux S502 for tests, though of course that does require a cable.  I am also going to test a couple of Naiant omnis built into XLR connectors, using the right angle adapters, but I suspect the stereo image will be poor at best.

Today I decided to get my mitre saw out and make some. Now I just need to glue them together.

(I’m afraid a rotatable version is beyond my capabilities!)

[Ozpeter]

Wow, I'm impressed!

[Ozpeter]

I could cry... A short sharp thunderstorm approaching showed up on the weather map.  I hurried a guest who was thinking of leaving out of the house so she would not get soaked getting to her car.  And only then did it occur to me to record it!  I quickly got out the H1 XLR and superlux stereo mic, just got them connected and my finger on the power button, when there was a flash and simultaneous bang of a very close hit, I nearly wet myself, all the power in the house went out, and I'd missed it by less than ten seconds!  Well, at some point in the next few years there may be another such dynamic range test opportunity...

[Ozpeter]

Here is my simulation of using the Zoom H1 XLR for recording classical music.

https://youtu.be/J1JkF4WvufI?si=_Wi22jFfkeAuUC99

In this video (no images, just explanatory text) I am simulating using the Zoom H1 XLR for recording an orchestra, then a piano, then a wind quintet, as if I had connected a good pair of stereo mics to it.

I did this by playing pre-recorded music into a Mackie mixer, and connecting the output from the mixer set to mic level, not line level, into the mic level XLR inputs of the Zoom H1 XLR. 

After each musical excerpt finishes, there is some silence, during which the input to the mixer was muted.  So what you hear is the input noise of the H1 XLR plus the output noise of the mixer's output stage.  Worst case scenario!

Personally I think it is fine.  I briefly greatly amplified the 'silence' and it can be heard that the most significant element in the noise is hum from the mixer.

Please let me know if you think there really is any noise issue with this device in this use case.  I'm happy but YMMV.

[adrianb]

Say hello to my newly created 110 degree XLR adapters. This shows my MixPre-3 with my microbooster pluggys attached and the capsules 16cm apart, but with my MKH 8040 microphones attached they are exactly 17cm apart.

Why am I showing this on the Zoom H1 XLR thread? It’s because this new recorder has motivated me to make these adapters. I’ve been looking for some 110 degree adapters for some time and it seems they are simply not available, but the H1 XLR, whilst not available in the UK, has the form factor to potentially be the ultimate portable ORTF recorder.

Sure, I could do this with the F3 but that doesn’t have a 3.5mm input, or the Tascam FR-AV2 but it would mess with my OCD having to read the display sideways.

Besides, the price of the H1 XLR is just too good not to give this setup a go.

(Yes, I know the right adapter is pointing down a bit but I will adjust this later)

[Ozpeter]

It seems very surprising that such adapters are not available.  I can't believe that adapters with variable joints could not be made, and rotatable connectors, so that one could angle them at will and rotate them as necessary.  Excellent work on yours!

[rastasean]

Here is my simulation of using the Zoom H1 XLR for recording classical music.

https://youtu.be/J1JkF4WvufI?si=_Wi22jFfkeAuUC99

Nice music. Did you play any of the instruments in the recordings?

When you opened up the recordings in your DAW, did you see the DC offsets that raised Curtis' eyebrows?

[Ozpeter]

There was something of the sort (DC offset) visible when I massively amplified the 'silence' at one point (just before you hear the piano).  I may be able to check that further fairly soon, using a more scientific method.  And no - the only time I play an instrument is when I play a keyboard using headphones, so nobody can hear.  Well, the sample music in that other video where I walked around with the MKH mics was me singing and playing - but in the last century!

[commongrounder]

A good way to get a clear picture of DC offset on a digital audio waveform is to make a recording with the XLR input shorted (a plug with pins 2 and 3 jumpered). This will reduce input noise to the minimum and will allow any DC signals developed in the analog or A/D stages to be more easily visible. Turning phantom power off also will help. These days I’m pretty surprised to see any DC offset in a recorder because most A/D converters have DC servos (essentially a high-pass filter at a couple of hertz) that corrects the offset before being printed. I come from the days of the Sony PCM-F1 where offset wasn’t servo corrected and drifted terribly while it warmed up. I installed externally accessible ten-turn trimmers on my PCM units so I could touch them up during recording sessions (using a video monitor!!). We didn’t have DAWs to do that in post back then!

[Ozpeter]

I come from the days of the Sony PCM-F1 where offset wasn’t servo corrected and drifted terribly while it warmed up. I installed externally accessible ten-turn trimmers on my PCM units so I could touch them up during recording sessions (using a video monitor!!). We didn’t have DAWs to do that in post back then!

Yay, that's my first digital recorder too (hired!).  And back in '83, I hadn't even heard of DC offset...

[Ozpeter]

My latest brief test, designed to show whether this recorder can cope with the decay of the sound of a cathedral organ into the acoustic.

OK, it's not a real organ in a real acoustic, but none the less, as far as I am concerned the H1 XLR would be fine for making such a recording fed from a decent stereo pair of mics.  If you turn up the playback volume enough to hear the noise, you'll damage your hearing near the end where I used the loudest stops.

https://youtu.be/3zXz_nYV_r4

And if it's good for that, I would have thought it was fine for typical rock gig recordings and suchlike.

[rastasean]

> My latest brief test, designed to show whether this recorder can cope with the decay of the sound of a cathedral organ into the acoustic.

I can definitely hear the noise while the organ is playing, but not at the end in the silence. Which means, i think any other recorder would also record the noise from your mixer and PC as heard in this video.

[Ozpeter]

Thanks for checking it out!

I can hear the externally generated system noise in the quieter parts if I ride the playback volume in my headphones, but if I leave it at the volume that suits the later louder passages, it's not noticeable.  (Until I did this test and briefly cranked the playback crazy high I was completely unaware of my PC's system noise!).  And that's partly the point of that test - even with the noise of the stages before the signal reaches the Zoom, it's not (to me...) a significant issue during normal playback.  And it's not one to which the Zoom is adding anything of any consequence. 

Maybe what I am saying is that noise gets maybe too much nit picking attention these days.  I suppose there is not much else to talk about, given that portable recorder frequency responses are basically flat.  There are a few categories of audio recording where devices with -127dBu are worth having, and of course I do understand that people want the best even if it doesn't actually make a practical difference, but this device's -122dBu should cover almost all users' needs. IMHO.

[adrianb]

Just been watching the Curtis Judd review of this recorder, and the associated comments. It doesn’t seem like there’s much love for this device, except for Ozpeter 😀

Anyway, mine arrives tomorrow so I will be able to make my own mind up on how good it is.

I rather think that people are expecting far too much given the price point. I was really thinking about buying the Tascam FR-AV2 as a replacement for my MixPre, but decided on this in addition to the MixPre. I can think of situations where this will be useful.

[rastasean]

I received the H1 XLR earlier this week and haven't been able to spend much time with it at all. It's my first 32 bit recorder and aside from my Zoom R16 (i think), this is my first portable two channel audio recorder of the Zoom line to own.

I think you're right, adrianb, many people have really high expectations for the price point.

Knowing you're receiving your recorder tomorrow, I'll hold back on my thoughts about it until you've assessed it on your own. Plus, I haven't spent much time using it so far.

[adrianb]

Took delivery of my Zoom H1 XLR today. First impressions?

Negatives: It feels cheap and plasticky. The user interface is very clunky, it’s like navigating an old Nokia phone. Maybe I will find the game Snake in the menu somewhere.

Positives: It is cheap, very cheap. It feels much smaller and lighter in the hand than I thought it would, and the official dimensions suggest. Not much bigger than my Roland R-07 and smaller than my Sony M10. The size, together with the plastic material, could make it an ideal stealth recorder. This is the purpose I bought it for. The battery life is looking good.

The first thing I am testing is battery life. At the moment I am running two Pluggy XLR PRIMO EM272Z1 microphones on 48v phantom power and after 3 hours of recording, using two Ikea AA rechargeables, there are still full bars on the battery indicator.

Tomorrow I will test with my Sennheiser MKH8040 microphones, which I guess will be more demanding, and then with some DPA 4061s in the 3.5mm input using PIP.

I will have more time in two days to give an opinion on the audio quality. Given the comments from Curtis Judd my hopes are not too high for audio quality but at this moment that’s almost irrelevant at this price point. Will it be suitable for stealth? A 32-bit recorder that I can set and forget before a gig? Will two small XLR microphones set at 110 degrees give a better result than my Sony M10 for stealth field recording?

At the moment I am feeling quite positive about my purchase, particularly as the recording time has just gone to 3 hrs 30 mins and there are still full bars on the battery indicator.

[adrianb]

I have owned this recorder for two days now. Not had time to check the quality of the audio recordings but have left the recorder running to check battery life:

1. Two Pluggy XLR PRIMO EM272Z1 microphones on 48v phantom power - 10 hrs 56 mins
2. Two Sennheiser MKH 8040 cardioids on 48v phantom power - 6 hrs 35 mins
3. Two DPA 4061 microphones on 2.5v PIP - 14 hrs 33 mins (Not sufficient voltage to power the mics, but will give an idea of battery life with other lavier mics)
4. Two DPA 4061 microphones on 9.0v PIP using XLR adapters - 11 hrs 38 mins

That really seems pretty excellent to me, running off two Ikea LADDA 2450 rechargeable batteries that I bought in 2017.

I can add that I like the file naming. Both date and time eg 241116-195742.WAV. Each file is 2097057KB in size and 1 hr 33 mins in length, and each of the last files was safely saved before the recorder shut down.

What is going to annoy me is that the battery indicator showed full (three bars) for too long, and I did have the correct battery setting in the menu. During the second test I noticed that the indicator only dropped to two bars after about 4 hrs 30 mins, one bar after about 5 hrs 30 mins, and then zero bars with a few minutes left. As soon as this unit stops showing a full battery might be the time to think about changing batteries.

Today I will be doing some comparisons with my MixPre-3 outside, and finding out what it is like with loud music as a potential stealth recorder.

EDIT: These recording times were measured with the screen permanently on during recording. The screen can be switched off during recording and I think at least an extra hour can be conservatively added to these times if it is. I have just left my Zoom H1 XLR run with the screen off and mics in the XLR inputs and obtained nearly 14 hours.

[adrianb]

Another thing I’ve noticed is that the top of the unit has two screws next to the XLR inputs. I won’t be able to resist unscrewing these and having a look 

I wonder if the XLR inputs are easily removable. If they are then I could imagine some modifications involving an improved 3.5mm input with 9v PIP.

[Ozpeter]

I'm really looking forward to you guys discovering that I'm totally deaf, or instead that my judgement in these matters is actually passable!

Note that in the comments to the Curtis Judd review, some of which I did find a bit snarky, I and others got into some argument with him about his definitely snarky comments about not being able to vary the a/d level during recording, as that would make setting the output to a camera difficult.  That whole concept of a way of working really troubled me - varying the recorded level to vary the output instead of... varying the output level and leaving the recorded level stable.  Anyway, after a slew of comments, he did graciously acknowledge that his concept in this area was incorrect, which was good to see.  He also revised some of his opinions about noise levels in a pinned comment.  Overall, of course he knows his stuff in the context of the work that he does, but I don't think he knows everything and his opinions have to be taken as interesting but not gospel.  I think he would probably agree with that.

There is such a danger from these permanent reviews on stuff which may be strongly influential on sales, but which may not actually prove to be totally fair in some cases, in both the good and bad directions.  I'm reminded of the early reviews for the "MicTrak" devices which rightly pointed out to severe RF problems - but the devices were quickly withdrawn and re-released two or three months later, without the problems which had arisen in the manufacture of the first batch.  But the original reviews are still there, and I suspect they are still affecting sales, given that I bought my M2 model for about half price (not that I'm complaining about the bargain!).

At risk of repeating myself, I believe that the preamp noise level in the H1 XLR is such that for almost all purposes it would be not a significant problem, and I would be surprised if the frequency response was not flat within the range of average hearing.  So really it comes down to the non-audio side - does it have the required features for the task in hand?  Is it robust enough?  Is the menu system easy to use?  [My view being that it's fine apart from two less-than-ideal aspects, so long as you are wearing good glasses].  And is it really necessary to spend more, if the rest is ok?  (Setting aside the irresistible urge to spend too much on audio equipment that we probably all suffer from...).

[Todd]

I've had an H1 XLR for a week and have done 2 shows.  Used to being able to monitor the recording via a phone like for the F3 or F2 but since you can't adjust the levels, as long as the red light is on and the Hold button pressed, full steam ahead.  So far so good as it can get thru metal detectors, which is what I want it for.   Also have a loaner DPA 4061 so a lot of exploring at the moment.   

Here's a track from a jam packed sold out Slowdive show that turned out pretty well audience by the soundboard.

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/35kmwuqmpu3vx89sfshdd/Slowdive-11-14-24-chained-to-a-cloud-National-Richmond-VA-F3-L264-R4061-ADC.flac?rlkey=ybn21udaqvda29qlfplz1i4ja&dl=0


Also a Bruce Cockburn track from a seated sold out show.  Much quieter so had to boost levels, which added mic noise at times. 

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/gwdzvffwbrzunr64kr81s/Bruce-Cockburn-11-13-24-Where-the-Lions-Are-Jefferson-Theater-Charlottesville-VA-F23-4061-264-ADC.flac?rlkey=wpm3e0hknah98lmat98yt7dt5&dl=0

[adrianb]

Also have a loaner DPA 4061 so a lot of exploring at the moment.

What have you used to power the DPA4061 mics?

The 2.5v PIP on this unit is definitely not enough to power my DPA4061 mics. The 3.1v on my Roland R-07 can just about manage it though.

I am using XLR 48v to 9v adapters which are low profile and work very well, but are made of metal so less stealthy.

[TheJez]

Also a Bruce Cockburn track from a seated sold out show.  Much quieter so had to boost levels, which added mic noise at times. 

Are you sure it’s mic noise, or could it be recorder self-noise? I mean, that still is the big question with this recorder!

[Ozpeter]

I look forward to hearing those samples as soon as I get home.  As for the recorder self noise, it's down at -122du, which is highly unlikely to be heard without huge amounts of amplification of the recorded sound.  The venerable but respected Sony M10 had the same noise test figure as does the Roland R-05.  The Sony A10, popular here, offers -116dBu, for comparison.  The Zoom F3 is -128dBu.  So the H1 XLR is 6dBu less noisy than the A10, and 6dBu more noisy than the F3. 

Bear in mind that someone may say that's not a valid comparison...

[adrianb]

I managed to set aside two hours this afternoon to record some samples using my Primo EM272Z1 and Sennheiser MKH8040 microphones, together with my new Zoom H1 XLR recorder and Sound Devices MixPre-3 II.

The samples were taken on our patio, some road noise in the distance but mainly quiet with birdsong.

I think I’m in agreement with Ozpeter, that any noise is insignificant.

I definitely preferred the sound of the 8040s into the MixPre-3 over the Primos into the H1 XLR, but then the comparison was £3000 v £200. In all the combinations it was the microphones that made the most difference, not the recorder used. I thought I could hear a bit more hiss on the 8040s into the Zoom than into the Sound Devices, but insignificant at worst and I’m not even sure it’s not the Placebo Effect playing tricks with me … it’s a lot more expensive so it must sound better.

I will add that my ears are 60 years old, so it is also possible that I am unable to determine much difference.

My intended use for this unit remains stealth, either in a concert venue in a set and forget situation, or for field recording with some small pluggy mics that I can set down without anyone noticing.

[rastasean]

Here's a very short sample of the H1XLR recording a phone call with a little background chatter: https://audio.com/48c2
I had the mic game increased on the recorder to +20 and boosted as much as I could in Audacity.
Mics are Naiant X-X low sensitivity.

The low rumble you may hear is likely room noise and a little mic self noise.

I did not hear any RF interference. The mics were only a few cm away from each other and the cable was coiled up, so mics recorder and phone were all very close together.

[rastasean]

Initial impressions...

I'm a little disappointed and surprised the recorder didn't come with a usb-c to usb a cable for data transfer, especially since the recorder can be used as an audio interface.
I wasn't expecting a case, but a simple short cable would have been nice, and really expected.

I don't really have a problem with the plastic body of the recorder. In my hands, I don't think it's as cheap or plastic feeling as some other recorders, like the Fostex FR-2LE.
The battery door locks well, but rattles just a little if you try to jiggle it around. I'm surprised the SD door has a little plastic hinge; I was expecting something like the tascam dr-2d, where you push and pull on a door that's connected to a pair of plastic stoppers inside the recorder.

Turning the recorder on takes 10 seconds! Most of that time is accessing my SD card of only 32 gb, but maybe it's a slower card; turning the recorder off takes 4 seconds. When there is no sd card, the start up and shutdown times are about the same - 4 seconds. Maybe those with different (smaller, faster, larger, slower, etc) sd cards and report different start up times. But that's really only relevant once per startup.

Menu system is decent and reminds me of something like the Edirol R-44. I'm not sure what I would change or reorder around in it. Zoom R&D probably didn't spend a lot of time designing the menu and its layout.

During recording, i would have preferred an option between a waveform and levels, but we only get the waveform. I do like that if you're in mono x2 you can use the mixer button to adjust each channel individually, but only before recording, just like with the other two options.

Overall, I'm not disappointed with the recorder and don't have buyer's remorse at this point. Maybe that will change when i do a few more recordings and hear the noise Curtis was frustrated with.

I did watch this video of the Zoom H1E and will likely notbuy that recorder, even though it's less expensive than the H1 XLR: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvCwJiAk3-o
Would you folks give it a listen and see what you think of that recorder? I'd rather hold my reservations and not have it color your thoughts.

[adrianb]

Just checked and my recorder is taking 5 seconds to switch on with a Samsung 64GB card, and 4 seconds to turn off.

[Ozpeter]

I've now listened to all the samples above and also watched the YouTube video about the H1essential.

Well, the H1 XLR samples sounded fine to me - but they made me reflect on how hard it is to make judgements about any audio device (with reasonable quality) using real-world audio samples.  The catch is that the recorder will be used for recording real world audio!  So while measurements can give some indication as to whether the device is crap or not, real world audio should give a more meaningful picture.  But such samples are greatly affected by all sorts of stuff that happens before the audio gets to the recorder input.  With band performances for instance, the variables include the quality of the PA, the quality of the room, placement of the mics, the quality of the mics, and so on.

Yesterday I walked down to a local park where there is a lake and frogs calling on all sides, and birds and flowing water sounds - and a load of distant suburban traffic noise.  I decided not to bother with running a test there as those not knowing the location well would have had trouble isolating any possible system noise from the higher level suburban noises. 

Years ago I was using an Edirol R-44 to record a classical concert in a new concert hall. After the rehearsal the hall was empty and I left the machine running for a few moments (fed from my MKH MS pair).  Listening back later, I cranked up the volume and realised that I could hear some people talking outside the thick closed doors of the soundproofed hall.  That was a rare opportunity to record a tiny sound in a quiet place - but I can't recall another such opportunity in the last 15 years!  I've been trying to find any published spec of the R-44 mic preamps from the noise perspective and can't find one expressed in dBu to compare with others, but given the march of time I suspect its noise level would be not significantly better, or possibly worse, that the H1 XLR (OK, that's a guess but...).

Now about that video about the H1essential - to be honest I skimmed through listening to the samples but I don't think there was anything recorded in any kind of silent place.  What made me very, very puzzled at first was the moment at 14:08 where a lady drops the lid of a large bin - and the background noise immediately faded before gradually coming back.  What, compression?? Why?? And then I remembered Curtis Judd mentioning the YouTube "stable volume" feature which is I think on by default.  Turn that off, no compression!  A lesson learned.   As for the device, well, end results would probably be most determined by the quality of its built in mics, if used.  Probably not amazing.  Using it with external mics would be more likely to give good results, but then why buy a recorder with built in mics if you were not going to use them?  Instead - buy the H1 XLR...

[Todd]

answering a couple questions from above in this thread

-the H1XLR can be phantom power'd - the deck seemed to power the DPA 4061 fine. 

-for stealth recording I have the mics in my shirt collar.  as I move around, with quiet moments I can hear the mic rustling against the collar even with wind screens on.  Part of this is driven by that I have to spike up the levels in Audacity after recording live.

-I don't find the build quality of the H1 XLR poor with its plastic case.   It feels solid.  I'm a fan of XLR connections as they stay intact at packed shows, etc.   The H1 XLR is quite feature packed with mini jack input as well as XLR for $149.   

-I haven't experienced it yet but there are switches to change the mic inputs from mic to line level.  I haven't tested it yet but I'm doubting that these are part of the Hold setting but hoping it is in case this occurs during a show while the Hold button is on.   

For metal detector shows, it's easy to get smaller mics in and now a decent XLR deck work for me. 

[Ozpeter]

Indeed the mic/line switches are kind of physical, not affected by the 'hold' feature.  So you would in theory have to be careful not to move them accidentally, though that would be reasonably hard to do.  If in doubt, gaffer them.

[Ozpeter]

I have been scouring the web, without real success, for a resource that has a useful discussion of preamp noise in real world recording equipment, and at what level it starts to matter and in what circumstances, and I happened upon a review by Curtis Judd of the Tascam Dr60-D Mk 1.  in it in he was very complimentary about how 'clean' its mic inputs were.  But in fact the H1 XLR preamps have slightly better specs.  So why wasn't he so complimentary about that device?  Now admittedly, his Tascam review is 9 years old.  But even that far back, the specs of recorders with the best noise figures were not different to the best now, within a dBu or so.  Maybe his personal standards have upped since then, but why?  This is what puzzles me about the whole noise figure emphasis these days - why the change of standards when our ears are the same and the equipment available is the same? 

Me, obsessed? Never!

[TheJez]

Me, obsessed? Never!

Hi Peter,
In general I think you're right. Most of the times the 'relatively poor' noise performance of budget devices like the Zoom H1 XLR will never be an issue when recording louder stuff, or probably I should say 'stuff with consistent loudness'. However, I've had some serious issues with recordings I made of shows with high dynamic range, i.e. some songs very loud and some songs very quiet. I knew this was going to be the case upfront, but I had no idea how loud the loud parts would be. As a result, I set the record level very conservative, as I didn't want any clipping to occur. And as a result of that, the quiet parts were suffering from the recorder self noise a lot. The S/N ratio was that bad in these quiet parts that doing noise reduction also heavily affected the sound that I wanted to keep.
In order to make it a pleasant listening experience in e.g. car or living room situations, I had to do some dynamics processing to crank up the quiet parts. Obviously, that also cranked up the noise or the noise reduction artifacts.
Overall, I was not very happy with the results. Yes, in hindsight it turned out I could/should have set the record level higher, but I couldn't know at the time while recording.
In this particular situation, a lower self-noise of the recorder would have given me better results. I have another gig by this particular artist coming up in spring next year, and I hope/expect my new Tascam FR-AV2 will help me get better results this time, thanks to lower self noise and of course the 32bfp/dual-ADC configuration...

[adrianb]

-the H1XLR can be phantom power'd - the deck seemed to power the DPA 4061 fine.

Since it was me that mentioned powering my DPA4061s I should stress that I have my pair of DPA4061 mics terminated in a 3.5mm TRS jack. The PIP on this unit is just 2.5v. All attempts to record using the PIP on this unit has resulted in distorted sound. They work okay in my Roland R07 with 3.1v PIP.

Given the powering requirements of many lavalier mics it seems to be very shortsighted to offer just 2.5v PIP … I am particularly looking at you Sound Devices with your MixPre range given the price.

If using phantom power on this unit then it becomes a very useful stealth recorder.

It seems to me that we are still waiting for the perfect stealth recorder for gigs … small, 32-bit, low noise, stereo, at least 5v PIP. We got excited about the Deity but then they ditched the 32-bit stereo. At the moment the Tascam FR-AV2 might be the closest to that ideal, and I will probably buy one when they become more available in the UK, it’s just that I don’t like the form factor and size for stealth. Maybe I will change my opinion when I actually get one.

[rastasean]

Maybe his personal standards have upped since then, but why?  This is what puzzles me about the whole noise figure emphasis these days - why the change of standards when our ears are the same and the equipment available is the same? 

Likely because he's fortunate enough to have access to all kinds of high end recorders and microphones that have colored his personal preferences. In the 9 years since the Tascam review, he also has a better idea of what to listen for and how to listen for questionable sounds. That said, i think I'd rather have a reviewer be critical, rather than blowing smoke and saying it's the best recorder of all time. It's people doing reviews so they're going to have their own biases and that needs to be accounted for when checking into the various products.

[Ozpeter]

Me, obsessed? Never!

Hi Peter,
In general I think you're right. Most of the times the 'relatively poor' noise performance of budget devices like the Zoom H1 XLR will never be an issue when recording louder stuff, or probably I should say 'stuff with consistent loudness'. However, I've had some serious issues with recordings I made of shows with high dynamic range, i.e. some songs very loud and some songs very quiet. I knew this was going to be the case upfront, but I had no idea how loud the loud parts would be. As a result, I set the record level very conservative, as I didn't want any clipping to occur. And as a result of that, the quiet parts were suffering from the recorder self noise a lot.....
Overall, I was not very happy with the results. Yes, in hindsight it turned out I could/should have set the record level higher, but I couldn't know at the time while recording.
In this particular situation, a lower self-noise of the recorder would have given me better results. I have another gig by this particular artist coming up in spring next year, and I hope/expect my new Tascam FR-AV2 will help me get better results this time, thanks to lower self noise and of course the 32bfp/dual-ADC configuration...

That puzzles me.  This was with the H1 XLR, yes?  Setting the level simply shifts the digits after the a/d converter and should (a) not be necessary* and (b) it should have no influence on the s/n ratio which has been locked before the a/d conversion.  And the 32 bit float processing of the H1 XLR is via dual converters, like I believe all such modern devices use.  What mics were you using?  In my own test of recording ambient noise at night, system noise when using condenser mics was no problem at all, even listening at louder than real life playback levels - I can't imagine that the ambient sound levels during a live show could be lower, let alone during a performance.   Hmmm.

[*I imagine the intention of providing post a/d level control is to enable the recording to be used straight off the memory card, not adjusted in a DAW afterwards].

[Ozpeter]

https://youtu.be/frah8eBvUbU?si=KnB_LQ1FX1CbyOPU

This to me is a very good explanation about the significance of preamp noise.  The practical tests he demonstrates are very persuasive.  With dynamic mics it can matter.  Generally with condenser mics, it doesn't, within certain limits.  There are some great comments on this video too (and the usual dumb or irrelevant ones).  Mr Krause has a rule of thumb that the preamp noise should be -120dBu or less, in which case the mic choice will be the determining factor.  The Zoom H1 XLR at -122dBu passes the test.

[adrianb]

https://youtu.be/frah8eBvUbU?si=KnB_LQ1FX1CbyOPU

That’s a very interesting video.

[TheJez]

Me, obsessed? Never!

Hi Peter,
In general I think you're right. Most of the times the 'relatively poor' noise performance of budget devices like the Zoom H1 XLR will never be an issue when recording louder stuff, or probably I should say 'stuff with consistent loudness'. However, I've had some serious issues with recordings I made of shows with high dynamic range, i.e. some songs very loud and some songs very quiet. I knew this was going to be the case upfront, but I had no idea how loud the loud parts would be. As a result, I set the record level very conservative, as I didn't want any clipping to occur. And as a result of that, the quiet parts were suffering from the recorder self noise a lot.....
Overall, I was not very happy with the results. Yes, in hindsight it turned out I could/should have set the record level higher, but I couldn't know at the time while recording.
In this particular situation, a lower self-noise of the recorder would have given me better results. I have another gig by this particular artist coming up in spring next year, and I hope/expect my new Tascam FR-AV2 will help me get better results this time, thanks to lower self noise and of course the 32bfp/dual-ADC configuration...

That puzzles me.  This was with the H1 XLR, yes?

Ah, sorry for the confusion, I should have been clear about this. This was with an Edirol R-09HR with some very unsensitive Core Sound Stealth Cardiod mics. It was just an example of a case where lower recorder self noise would have helped to get a better result. Hence I didn't mind spending a bit more money getting the Tascam FR-AV2 instead of the Zoom H1 XLR, although I do realize the low self noise of the Tascam is indeed 'overkill' in most situations.

[Ozpeter]

Ah, that explains it.  The R-09HR has an A weighted noise level of -103dBu, while the H1 XLR claims -122dBu, and the Tascam FR-AV2 comes in at -127dBu.  So whatever you get will make a radical difference to the noise in your recordings! 

[Important edit - it has now been pointed out to me that I misread the Avisoft table, and that in fact the R-09HR offers a perfectly respectable -118dBu when set to its higher "H" sensitivity.  The figure I mentioned above is when it is used on the L setting.  My bad!]

[adrianb]

I managed to do a bit more testing with this new Zoom in the woods two days ago. We had fresh snow in the UK that day, with no wind, which made the woods very quiet except for the sound of birdsong.

The setup was two pluggy omni mics, utilising a DIY Jecklin disc. Very small and portable.

I’ve just listened to the results and I have to say I’m impressed with the sound. No noticeable noise.

[rastasean]

You didn't have any wind noise or handling noise?

[adrianb]

You didn't have any wind noise or handling noise?

Absolutely no wind that day, just weirdly still, and recorder placed on fallen tree trunks so no handling noise. I figured this was the best day to test the unit.

I also took out my Sony PCM-D100 which is the recorder most susceptible to wind noise, and didn’t use a wind shield. I preferred the recordings from this, but that’s because the angled cardioids gave a better stereo separation. I can’t say there was more or less noise from either of them, and the Sony is generally well regarded for noise floor.

[Ozpeter]

I wonder whether right angled XLR adapters would separate the mics a bit more and give wider stereo?  I actually have the means to try that here, with similar mics (mine are antique Naiant ones) and the adapters.  But no disc although I should be able to improvise.  Still I am glad you had no issues with the performance of the recorder itself.

[adrianb]

I wonder whether right angled XLR adapters would separate the mics a bit more and give wider stereo?  I actually have the means to try that here, with similar mics (mine are antique Naiant ones) and the adapters.  But no disc although I should be able to improvise.  Still I am glad you had no issues with the performance of the recorder itself.

I made those 110 degrees XLR adapters for this recorder. Yesterday I took delivery of these 110 degree angled cardioids, again with this recorder in mind:

https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=206319.0

Big problem. This zoom has unusual XLR inputs with the locking connectors at opposite sides. I’m back to the drawing board with my DIY angled adapters.

[Ozpeter]

Very neat mics!  The widely available 90 degree XLR adapters can be rotated but I wonder whether there are straight ones with that feature?  Hmm.

[TheJez]

Ah, that explains it.  The R-09HR has an A weighted noise level of -103dBu...

As a long time user of the R-09HR, and to prevent anyone stumbling on this thread thinking that it's a very noisy recorder, I feel the urge to advocate a bit for this device: The mentioned -103dBu noise level applies only when the 'mic gain' switch is set to 'low'. When set to 'high' it becomes -118dBu.
Unfortunately, for years, I strictly followed the manual which states that the 'low' setting is for 'loud sounds such as band performances', even though I used very insensitive mics...  When recording realy loud stuff this was not a problem, but with these high dynamic performances it defenately bit me in the quiet parts. 

[Ozpeter]

Thanks for correcting me on the R-09HR noise figure.  For some reason, when I did a ctrl/f to find it in the Avisoft table, it only picked up the figure near the bottom of the table, not the perfectly respectable one much further up for the "H" setting.  Actually I will amend my earlier post to confess to my misinformation, right away.

[Ozpeter]

Today the weather has been quite remarkable in terms of lack of wind.  A single leaf on the tallest tree has not even thought of twitching for hours.  And as the day began with steady light rain, and it is Sunday, there isn't much suburban noise in the garden.  So I have made some ambient recordings with the Superlux S502 with no wind muffs into the XLR sockets, and then with the Roland binaural mics into the 3.5mm input (not worn, just laid on the garden table).  I am very pleased with the outcomes, with no system noise that I can hear from either source.  There were a few good samples of birdsong, and at one point a yapping dog gradually got louder as it was lead up the road outside the house, and the local birds got very vocal nearby telling it shut up, and then it all faded back to ambient background again. It may be a few days until I get a chance to upload some samples but I certainly will.

[rastasean]

Which Roland mics did you use? I purchased a pair from ebay several weeks ago but had to return, since the audio on one of the channels wasn't working.
I think they were cs-10 or something. I was looking forward to using them.

In my very brief usage of them, I found the self noise to be quite high, but that was only about 10 minutes usage with basically only one channel working.
Looking forward to your recordings.

[Ozpeter]

Roland CS10-EM indeed.  I had to look it up!  In my test recording of 'silence' I could hear nothing obviously wrong on the noise front compared to the Superlux mics, neither from the mics themselves nor from the different input sockets each used.  That was playing back using Sennheiser HD25 headphones, with the H1 XLR output volume up to 100, which results in a replay level significantly higher than I would have experienced in the garden in real life.  Subjectively the Roland mics seemed to have more grunt with the low frequencies and overall slightly higher level than the Superlux mics.  That's a combination of the mic itself and the different input socket used.

Sadly it will be a couple more days before I can get anything uploaded, but watch this space...

[rastasean]

Peter,

Maybe I missed it elsewhere in this thread, but how do you get your Superlux S502 plugged into the H1XLR? It looks like both mics connect to a single five pin XLR...
https://www.thomannmusic.com/superlux_s502.htm

Can you snap a picture?

[Niels]

… but how do you get your Superlux S502 plugged into the H1XLR? It looks like both mics connect to a single five pin XLR...
https://www.thomannmusic.com/superlux_s502.htm

The mic comes with the necessary cable according to your link:
“Includes microphone cable (5-pin female to 2x 3-pin male) and wind protector”

[jefflester]

Yeah, comes with a short cable. Then can use common XLRs to extend to desired length, or a less-common 5-pin cable to extend from mic end.

[adrianb]

That Superlux S502 looks like a lot of microphone for not much money.

Here’s my slightly cheaper (nearly) ORTF setup using the Zoom H1 XLR. Very portable.

[rastasean]

Right, i understand there's a cable. I thought peter was saying he plugs the mics directly into the recorder without the cable.

[Ozpeter]

I plugged my MKH mics directly into the device - well, with suitable XLR to XLR angled and straight adapters, but indeed the supplied adapter lead (only) was used to connect the S502.  As it happens I have at least 100 feet of 5 pin XLR to 5 pin XLR cable which I could use to get that mic away from the recorder.  That goes back to my pro classical recording days where I started with an MS pair for almost everything.  Why run two cables when you could run one from stage to control room?  It was as thick as my thumb however - and heavy!  But if somehow I got the chance to try the Superlux and H1 XLR on a classical performance now, my approach would probably be to put the mic on the top of a stand, the recorder at the bottom with not much cable between neatly attached down the stand, start the recorder running before the audience comes in, and walk away.  And I think the S502 would produce a perfectly adequate result, even for broadcast.

[adrianb]

Ever since I saw the Zoom H1 XLR in images I thought it had the potential to be the perfect portable recorder with the right microphones. Hence my DIY efforts because the right microphones don’t exist.

I might be as close as I can get with my latest effort, utilising the microphones from an obsolete Rode iXY microphone for 30-pin iPhones, which I knew had decent capsules. It was guesswork on the voltage requirements, but using a Simple P48 wiring to take the voltage down from 45.6v to 5.6v seems to give good results. Just need to find suitable wind protection now, although the Rycote I use for my Sony D100 works adequately.

Incidentally I have just realised I can turn the screen off, and managed a recording time of 13 hours 42 minutes using these mics, so the test times I mention on Page 9 of this thread are on the low side because the screen remained on during recording.

[Ozpeter]

That's impressive!

[audBall]

Just need to find suitable wind protection now, although the Rycote I use for my Sony D100 works adequately.

Is this Rycote windscreen available separately somewhere?

[adrianb]

I've added some recording samples using the Zoom H1 XLR to YouTube. The more I use this recorder the more I think the concerns about noise floor are exaggerated.

https://youtu.be/OI4Omfc7mxU

[Ozpeter]

I've added some recording samples using the Zoom H1 XLR to YouTube. The more I use this recorder the more I think the concerns about noise floor are exaggerated.

https://youtu.be/OI4Omfc7mxU

I came across your video before reading this post, and have commented approvingly!  Very interesting samples.  As for noise - with condenser mics, there isn't any audible in normal use.  Maybe measurable but it's the ears that matter. 

[rastasean]

I've added some recording samples using the Zoom H1 XLR to YouTube. The more I use this recorder the more I think the concerns about noise floor are exaggerated.

https://youtu.be/OI4Omfc7mxU

Thanks for the testing!

When you did the recording, did you adjust the gain on the recorder at all with the mixer button or keep it at zero?

[adrianb]

When you did the recording, did you adjust the gain on the recorder at all with the mixer button or keep it at zero?

There is no gain adjustment on this recorder. The only processing in Audacity was to randomly select five 1 min sections, add them together and save as a 24-bit file. I also added 10dB of amplification.

[TheJez]

I've added some recording samples using the Zoom H1 XLR to YouTube. The more I use this recorder the more I think the concerns about noise floor are exaggerated.

https://youtu.be/OI4Omfc7mxU

Thanks for doing these tests and providing the results! Very interesting and nice to hear the effect of the DIY disc  . I think you'r right that the 'noise issue' is indeed exaggerated and a non-issue in almost all practical cases. However, being the devil's advocate, IMHO these tests cannot be used say anything about the noise performance due to the always present ambient city noise. Any self noise will be far below it. (It's not that you claimed that it could be used to judge the noise, but maybe good to mention anyway)

I guess only when recording very high dynamics (so very quiet and very loud parts in a single recording) that would require post processing compression to get the quiets parts to listenable levels, then the higher noise floor than e.g. F3 or FR-AV2 might become a problem. Or maybe not 

[adrianb]

However, being the devil's advocate, IMHO these tests cannot be used say anything about the noise performance due to the always present ambient city noise. Any self noise will be far below it. (It's not that you claimed that it could be used to judge the noise, but maybe good to mention anyway)

I guess only when recording very high dynamics (so very quiet and very loud parts in a single recording) that would require post processing compression to get the quiets parts to listenable levels, then the higher noise floor than e.g. F3 or FR-AV2 might become a problem. Or maybe not 

Very valid point. I do have recordings of some quiet scenes and will post when I get time.

The point of the experiment was really to test my DIY mics and their stereo separation compared to different setups. That was just some random samples, and what I did notice is that the mere addition of the disk improves stereo separation dramatically.

Incidentally, and somewhat irrelevant to this thread, I always thought my Rode iXY mics were a bit on the noisy side when used with my iPhones as intended, but I’ve been really impressed with them as the hacked variant plugged into my recorders. A reminder never to throw old mics away. I’m now looking for another cheap set of mics from Rode, Tascam or Zoom that were designed for 30-pin iPhones.

[Ozpeter]

I think the only mic I have ever thrown away was a ribbon mic which I destroyed with phantom power.  About 60 years ago. 

[rastasean]

Has anyone tried connecting their H1 xlr recorder to their iphone via usb-c to lightening cable?
The usb-c to lightening cable I purchased today led me to believe it was a data cable, since it mentioned transfer speeds on the packaging, but the recorder and phone don't know they're connected. I'll have to see what happens when I connected the phone and my computer together.

I do have a very short usb-c to lightening cable, which is a data cable. When connected the zoom recorder prompts me for stuff as though it's setting up the connection to be good. However, the three apps I've tested(1) with, only show the built in mono mic on my phone.

Even if you don't have an iphone, it would be helpful to know which apps got you connected to the zoom recorder.

edit...
I played a youtube video on my phone while the recorder was connected and the audio played through the phone, not the zoom recorder


(1) apps I used - rode reporter, sony motiv audio, apogee meta recorder

[rastasean]

Okay, i had success!

I used a usb-c to usb a cable with the apple (I think it's the apple one) "camera" adapter, which allows you to plug-in usb a style cables and devices, like thumb drives: https://www.amazon.com//dp/B0D7G6M7X8

Once I did this, all three apps were able to record and played the recorded audio through to the zoom. Not as portable as I'd prefer, with the dangling cables and all, but it would work.

An esoteric thing I did with a previous recorder (tascam dr-05x, which is dead), was to take a double ended 3.5mm audio cable, connect to a PC and the other end into the recorder.
Then I would use the above adapter to record videos while audio on the PC was playing. It was for work purposes, and I wanted audio directly from the PC to play in the video.
I think this would still work with the zoom recorder, but it's something I'll have to try out soon.

[rastasean]

Darn, I have confirmed the usb-c to lightening cable I purchased is power only. Guess I'll be doing a refund on it.

edit...
Even with an official apple usb-c to lightening cable, the recorder and phone don't connect with the apps I tried. So the adapter I linked above is a requirement.

[celticray]

I cant comment on the H1 essential but i think i would like the smaller footprint.   I also dont understand the s/n complaints.....
The H4 essential(with lithium batteries) powering DPA-4061 mics(with the DPA microdot to XLR adapters) is a magical combination.   Everything i want from a rock recording.   It is the best high resolution, musical, trouble free rig to archive that I have encountered.   And yes I sure cant afford Schoeps