Topic: Zoom H1 XLR 32bit Handy Recorder announced on Aug. 8 2024

[Todd]

answering a couple questions from above in this thread

-the H1XLR can be phantom power'd - the deck seemed to power the DPA 4061 fine. 

-for stealth recording I have the mics in my shirt collar.  as I move around, with quiet moments I can hear the mic rustling against the collar even with wind screens on.  Part of this is driven by that I have to spike up the levels in Audacity after recording live.

-I don't find the build quality of the H1 XLR poor with its plastic case.   It feels solid.  I'm a fan of XLR connections as they stay intact at packed shows, etc.   The H1 XLR is quite feature packed with mini jack input as well as XLR for $149.   

-I haven't experienced it yet but there are switches to change the mic inputs from mic to line level.  I haven't tested it yet but I'm doubting that these are part of the Hold setting but hoping it is in case this occurs during a show while the Hold button is on.   

For metal detector shows, it's easy to get smaller mics in and now a decent XLR deck work for me. 

[Ozpeter]

Indeed the mic/line switches are kind of physical, not affected by the 'hold' feature.  So you would in theory have to be careful not to move them accidentally, though that would be reasonably hard to do.  If in doubt, gaffer them.

[Ozpeter]

I have been scouring the web, without real success, for a resource that has a useful discussion of preamp noise in real world recording equipment, and at what level it starts to matter and in what circumstances, and I happened upon a review by Curtis Judd of the Tascam Dr60-D Mk 1.  in it in he was very complimentary about how 'clean' its mic inputs were.  But in fact the H1 XLR preamps have slightly better specs.  So why wasn't he so complimentary about that device?  Now admittedly, his Tascam review is 9 years old.  But even that far back, the specs of recorders with the best noise figures were not different to the best now, within a dBu or so.  Maybe his personal standards have upped since then, but why?  This is what puzzles me about the whole noise figure emphasis these days - why the change of standards when our ears are the same and the equipment available is the same? 

Me, obsessed? Never!

[TheJez]

Me, obsessed? Never!

Hi Peter,
In general I think you're right. Most of the times the 'relatively poor' noise performance of budget devices like the Zoom H1 XLR will never be an issue when recording louder stuff, or probably I should say 'stuff with consistent loudness'. However, I've had some serious issues with recordings I made of shows with high dynamic range, i.e. some songs very loud and some songs very quiet. I knew this was going to be the case upfront, but I had no idea how loud the loud parts would be. As a result, I set the record level very conservative, as I didn't want any clipping to occur. And as a result of that, the quiet parts were suffering from the recorder self noise a lot. The S/N ratio was that bad in these quiet parts that doing noise reduction also heavily affected the sound that I wanted to keep.
In order to make it a pleasant listening experience in e.g. car or living room situations, I had to do some dynamics processing to crank up the quiet parts. Obviously, that also cranked up the noise or the noise reduction artifacts.
Overall, I was not very happy with the results. Yes, in hindsight it turned out I could/should have set the record level higher, but I couldn't know at the time while recording.
In this particular situation, a lower self-noise of the recorder would have given me better results. I have another gig by this particular artist coming up in spring next year, and I hope/expect my new Tascam FR-AV2 will help me get better results this time, thanks to lower self noise and of course the 32bfp/dual-ADC configuration...

[adrianb]

-the H1XLR can be phantom power'd - the deck seemed to power the DPA 4061 fine.

Since it was me that mentioned powering my DPA4061s I should stress that I have my pair of DPA4061 mics terminated in a 3.5mm TRS jack. The PIP on this unit is just 2.5v. All attempts to record using the PIP on this unit has resulted in distorted sound. They work okay in my Roland R07 with 3.1v PIP.

Given the powering requirements of many lavalier mics it seems to be very shortsighted to offer just 2.5v PIP … I am particularly looking at you Sound Devices with your MixPre range given the price.

If using phantom power on this unit then it becomes a very useful stealth recorder.

It seems to me that we are still waiting for the perfect stealth recorder for gigs … small, 32-bit, low noise, stereo, at least 5v PIP. We got excited about the Deity but then they ditched the 32-bit stereo. At the moment the Tascam FR-AV2 might be the closest to that ideal, and I will probably buy one when they become more available in the UK, it’s just that I don’t like the form factor and size for stealth. Maybe I will change my opinion when I actually get one.

[rastasean]

Maybe his personal standards have upped since then, but why?  This is what puzzles me about the whole noise figure emphasis these days - why the change of standards when our ears are the same and the equipment available is the same? 

Likely because he's fortunate enough to have access to all kinds of high end recorders and microphones that have colored his personal preferences. In the 9 years since the Tascam review, he also has a better idea of what to listen for and how to listen for questionable sounds. That said, i think I'd rather have a reviewer be critical, rather than blowing smoke and saying it's the best recorder of all time. It's people doing reviews so they're going to have their own biases and that needs to be accounted for when checking into the various products.

[Ozpeter]

Me, obsessed? Never!

Hi Peter,
In general I think you're right. Most of the times the 'relatively poor' noise performance of budget devices like the Zoom H1 XLR will never be an issue when recording louder stuff, or probably I should say 'stuff with consistent loudness'. However, I've had some serious issues with recordings I made of shows with high dynamic range, i.e. some songs very loud and some songs very quiet. I knew this was going to be the case upfront, but I had no idea how loud the loud parts would be. As a result, I set the record level very conservative, as I didn't want any clipping to occur. And as a result of that, the quiet parts were suffering from the recorder self noise a lot.....
Overall, I was not very happy with the results. Yes, in hindsight it turned out I could/should have set the record level higher, but I couldn't know at the time while recording.
In this particular situation, a lower self-noise of the recorder would have given me better results. I have another gig by this particular artist coming up in spring next year, and I hope/expect my new Tascam FR-AV2 will help me get better results this time, thanks to lower self noise and of course the 32bfp/dual-ADC configuration...

That puzzles me.  This was with the H1 XLR, yes?  Setting the level simply shifts the digits after the a/d converter and should (a) not be necessary* and (b) it should have no influence on the s/n ratio which has been locked before the a/d conversion.  And the 32 bit float processing of the H1 XLR is via dual converters, like I believe all such modern devices use.  What mics were you using?  In my own test of recording ambient noise at night, system noise when using condenser mics was no problem at all, even listening at louder than real life playback levels - I can't imagine that the ambient sound levels during a live show could be lower, let alone during a performance.   Hmmm.

[*I imagine the intention of providing post a/d level control is to enable the recording to be used straight off the memory card, not adjusted in a DAW afterwards].

[Ozpeter]

https://youtu.be/frah8eBvUbU?si=KnB_LQ1FX1CbyOPU

This to me is a very good explanation about the significance of preamp noise.  The practical tests he demonstrates are very persuasive.  With dynamic mics it can matter.  Generally with condenser mics, it doesn't, within certain limits.  There are some great comments on this video too (and the usual dumb or irrelevant ones).  Mr Krause has a rule of thumb that the preamp noise should be -120dBu or less, in which case the mic choice will be the determining factor.  The Zoom H1 XLR at -122dBu passes the test.

[adrianb]

https://youtu.be/frah8eBvUbU?si=KnB_LQ1FX1CbyOPU

That’s a very interesting video.

[TheJez]

Me, obsessed? Never!

Hi Peter,
In general I think you're right. Most of the times the 'relatively poor' noise performance of budget devices like the Zoom H1 XLR will never be an issue when recording louder stuff, or probably I should say 'stuff with consistent loudness'. However, I've had some serious issues with recordings I made of shows with high dynamic range, i.e. some songs very loud and some songs very quiet. I knew this was going to be the case upfront, but I had no idea how loud the loud parts would be. As a result, I set the record level very conservative, as I didn't want any clipping to occur. And as a result of that, the quiet parts were suffering from the recorder self noise a lot.....
Overall, I was not very happy with the results. Yes, in hindsight it turned out I could/should have set the record level higher, but I couldn't know at the time while recording.
In this particular situation, a lower self-noise of the recorder would have given me better results. I have another gig by this particular artist coming up in spring next year, and I hope/expect my new Tascam FR-AV2 will help me get better results this time, thanks to lower self noise and of course the 32bfp/dual-ADC configuration...

That puzzles me.  This was with the H1 XLR, yes?

Ah, sorry for the confusion, I should have been clear about this. This was with an Edirol R-09HR with some very unsensitive Core Sound Stealth Cardiod mics. It was just an example of a case where lower recorder self noise would have helped to get a better result. Hence I didn't mind spending a bit more money getting the Tascam FR-AV2 instead of the Zoom H1 XLR, although I do realize the low self noise of the Tascam is indeed 'overkill' in most situations.

[Ozpeter]

Ah, that explains it.  The R-09HR has an A weighted noise level of -103dBu, while the H1 XLR claims -122dBu, and the Tascam FR-AV2 comes in at -127dBu.  So whatever you get will make a radical difference to the noise in your recordings! 

[Important edit - it has now been pointed out to me that I misread the Avisoft table, and that in fact the R-09HR offers a perfectly respectable -118dBu when set to its higher "H" sensitivity.  The figure I mentioned above is when it is used on the L setting.  My bad!]

[adrianb]

I managed to do a bit more testing with this new Zoom in the woods two days ago. We had fresh snow in the UK that day, with no wind, which made the woods very quiet except for the sound of birdsong.

The setup was two pluggy omni mics, utilising a DIY Jecklin disc. Very small and portable.

I’ve just listened to the results and I have to say I’m impressed with the sound. No noticeable noise.

[rastasean]

You didn't have any wind noise or handling noise?

[adrianb]

You didn't have any wind noise or handling noise?

Absolutely no wind that day, just weirdly still, and recorder placed on fallen tree trunks so no handling noise. I figured this was the best day to test the unit.

I also took out my Sony PCM-D100 which is the recorder most susceptible to wind noise, and didn’t use a wind shield. I preferred the recordings from this, but that’s because the angled cardioids gave a better stereo separation. I can’t say there was more or less noise from either of them, and the Sony is generally well regarded for noise floor.

[Ozpeter]

I wonder whether right angled XLR adapters would separate the mics a bit more and give wider stereo?  I actually have the means to try that here, with similar mics (mine are antique Naiant ones) and the adapters.  But no disc although I should be able to improvise.  Still I am glad you had no issues with the performance of the recorder itself.