Taperssection.com
Gear / Technical Help => Battery Boxes, Preamps, Mixers, ADCs, and Processors => Topic started by: Nick Graham on December 27, 2006, 06:44:19 PM
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I'm borrowing John Merrin's V3 for a few weeks, and can't decide exactly how I want to run it.
I can go S/PDIF out into my old M1, or run analog out and 24 bit on the R09. Everybody can probably already see the pros and cons of each...
What would you do?
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both?
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both?
yep, why not run both?
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do both nick
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i dont think ive heard a v3 > analog > r9 source yet
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Both
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What he said ;D
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if not both, 24 bit.
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It would also be interesting to find V2 > R-09 sources... I wonder how that would sound compared to V3 > 24bit bit bucket.... would potentially be a cheaper setup too.
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Both. Then post comps for us :)
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Let me add a twist...nevermind...just do both. Gotta love that about the V3.
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Not sure how hot a signal the R09 can take. If you're able, you may want to pick up an attenuator cable to put between the V3 analog outputs and the R09. Otherwise, may be tough to get a proper comparison / equal levels across both recorders without it.
At -12 dBFS, the V3 analog outputs balanced at +13 dBu, and unbalanced at +7 dBu. The complete dBFS / dBu table's in the V3 manual (http://www.taperssection.com/reference/pdf/Manual_Grace_V3_revD.pdf).
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Not sure how hot a signal the R09 can take. If you're able, you may want to pick up an attenuator cable to put between the V3 analog outputs and the R09. Otherwise, may be tough to get a proper comparison / equal levels across both recorders without it.
At -12 dBFS, the V3 analog outputs balanced at +13 dBu, and unbalanced at +7 dBu. The complete dBFS / dBu table's in the V3 manual (http://www.taperssection.com/reference/pdf/Manual_Grace_V3_revD.pdf).
Sonic Studios full review of the R-09 claims:
"The LINE input handles fully professional input levels up to a whopping +16 dBm! Ability to handle such high input levels without clipping is a first in a portable minideck without needing external attenuation adapters"
So I don't know if attenuators will be necessary (but I guess they could never hurt).
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Sorry to jump in guys...
I've never actually taken that hot of a line level with the R-09 but I had just remembered reading it when I had my hands on an R-09 and I was running it for a soundboard patch(second deck in a post matrix)...
Again, it could never hurt to have some attenuators to be safe, but you could ask GuySonic about his tests to be certain...
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Just for the sake of the conversation thought i'd add this. When running analog out of my V3 into my modSBM I HAD to have a 25db attenuator cable made to regulate the signal. It was coming very very hot out of the V3. Don't know if that would also be the case with the R09 but again I just wanted to share my experience with the V3 analog outputs.
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fwiw - I was just reading the V2 manual posted in the archive and it is slightly different than the one that came with my V2. In my V2 manual, Grace states that the minimum amount of gain needed should be used. This is not mentioned in the updated V2/V3 manual, but I thought I would mention it - might solve your problem - just run at a very low gain setting.
I used to run my sbm1 wide open with the V2 set at 15dB with nice results.....
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i run v2@20db and adjust on the 722. and v2 with trim pots no attenuation fully clockwise
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Team V2 - aka 'the place to be' 8) ;D
Sometime I use the attenuator pots - rarely, but for fine level adjustment with the AD2K+
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Team V2 - aka 'the place to be' 8) ;D
Sometime I use the attenuator pots - rarely, but for fine level adjustment with the AD2K+
i dont think it would ever hurt IMO. I would use it if i couldnt use the 722
grace wouldnt have something on there if it degraded the sound sonically
its just that theyre resistors and all
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I vote for the "run both and report back." You should be aware that the SPDIF signal coming out will be affected by any changes you make on the V3, as opposed to just adjusting the levels on the R-09. So you really need to run the levels from the V3 or they will get screwed up on the M-1. I would try to calibrate the levels on both decks pre-show, so that they are even, and then run things from the V3 from there.
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I'd just like to clarify what Moke wrote. ^^
There is no problem with the V3 running it hot when sending an analog signal. The V3 will not distort or brickwall on output or anything. So the V3 itself can be run as hot as you want, even when using the analog outputs. It's just that most downstream equipment cannot take as hot a signal that the V3 puts out on the analog XLR outs when the V3 is run full tilt. So the problem does not lie with the V3, it lies with the downstream device, and running the V3 at a lower level addresses that problem.
What level you need to run the V3 depends on the downstream device. At full tilt, the V3 puts out +25dbu. The Edirol R09 can take (I think, check this for yourself) a +19dbu signal. So the V3 in this case will only need to be run at -6dbFS from it's hottest to work with the R09. The Microtrack can only take about +4dbu (I think it is actually +3.8dbu), so the V3 would need to be run at least -21dbFS below it's full output to work with the MT.
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As another example, the Benchmark AD2k+ can take an analog signal as hot as +24dbu. So if you ran V3>AD2k+, then you'd only need to be sure to run the V3 1db below it's full output to work with the AD2k+.
My Marenius MM4210 mixer can take +20dbu. To run it behind my V3(analog), I'd need to run the V3 at no more than -6dbFS. Since I'd rather digital signal going to my MT hot, I built attenuator cables for the V3 analog output into the Marenius. Not optimal, but I'd prefer not running at -6dbFS on the digital outputs.
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I experienced much hotter levels on the V3 than the V2. I ran two pairs at Zero. One into the V2>R4 and the other V3>R4. I had to turn the gain way lower on the V3 than the V2. Don't remember the numbers right off hand but the V2 was at like 12 o'clock and the V3 at 9! Thought it was weird but apparently the V3 runs hotter than the V2. I think I prefer the V2.
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I experienced much hotter levels on the V3 than the V2. I ran two pairs at Zero. One into the V2>R4 and the other V3>R4. I had to turn the gain way lower on the V3 than the V2. Don't remember the numbers right off hand but the V2 was at like 12 o'clock and the V3 at 9! Thought it was weird but apparently the V3 runs hotter than the V2. I think I prefer the V2.
if you can remember, it would be good to know what the actual gain settings were. the V2 and the V3 have different gain structures. the trim knobs on the V2 are attenuators. so you can have a setting of 0dB overall gain. (i.e. +10 on the big knobs, and -10 on the trim). with the V3, the "trim" knob controls a second gain stage. so the minimum gain on the V3 is +10dB (i.e. +10 on the big knob, and 0 on the trim).
what I'm saying is, it's well documented that the gain structure is different. it is not too helpful to say that the V2 was at 12 o'clock and the V3 was at 9 o'clock, because the knob positions on the two units do not correlate to the same gain.
also, were both pairs of mics the same kind of mic? different mics have different sensitivities and will require different amounts of gain. so, that might also be coming into play...
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You are right. Just to clarify I was coming out of the analog's because my buddy was only using his digi>722. His levels were fine. Not high at all and mine were clipping with the R4 levels all the way down. But no I don't remember what the specific settings were. He ended up lowering the 722 more and gave me some headroom.
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that is very good advice from moke and todd r above.
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So when running a V3->AD2k+ should you set the input level on the 2k to +24 always. So I can run it like I normally do, peaking around -3 db on the V3s meters?
Thanks,
Jesse