Topic: Possible to do a matrix using mixer to introduce delay?

[poorlyconditioned]

Does anyone know if it is possible to use a simple mixer to a introduce a plain delay?  That is, just delay, and not reverb or any other coloration.  If so, would it be possible to use this to do a SBD/AUD mix on the fly by delaying the soundboard to match the mics, then adding them together?

I've got a semi-regular venue I record at.  I'm wondering if a simple mixer might be easier than lugging a laptop.  Currently my mics are hard-wired (AT853 hanging from the ceiling!).  It would be great just to leave a mixer and two track recorder there too.

If a mixer would do this, can anyone recommend a "value" model?  I'm looking at the Behringer UB1202FX, but I'm not sure that does what I want.

Thanks,
  Richard

[stirinthesauce]

I haven't used these but I know Joel uses 2 Behringer Shark DSP110's with great success.  One for each mic channel.  I believe you can pick up each one for around $70-80 on Amazon or other places.  I have actually looked into buying these and may do so in the not so distant future.  Kinda a economic route for mixing on the fly at distances.  Myself, usually just run into the back of my ua-5 if i'm close enough or will record sources seperately and mix in post.  Hope this helps you Richard.
-Jon

[RebelRebel]

yes, that unit should work, Richard. When I had the Wendt, I did this a lot(though never with delays)

make sure you have some excellent headphones. Etymotics are phenomenal for this task.
you could also use omnis and not worry about delays, if the room is ok.

[Chuck]

I'd be worried about the quality of the signal coming from a cheap digital delay. They all introduce noise.

[poorlyconditioned]

In order to delay the signal all you need is a small mixer with a VERY GOOD DELAY a shark is a peace of $@$@ and is not good enough You have to insert the delay into the channels that your using here is some of the units you can use for this they can be rented at most rental sound companies for $50 a day or less. Sabine sda-102 cheap but only one input and two outputs ( very cheap to buy ) or the Klark Teknic system delay or last but not least the BSS drive rack. All of these units will work great but the shark will degrade the quality of audio it’s a cheap (the frequency response of the shark) maybe 20 to 20 but the delay is not. Then you have to mix it all together live or you can do this,

If you can record some separate tracks into a multitrack recorder and them dump them down to computer you can do it there, Very well and with good sound quality. The rule of thumb for delay is 1ms per foot. You need a straight delay you want the WHOLE signal that has to be time aligned to be delayed with ZERO feedback unless you want it to sound like you were on LSD. Then mix the sounds together and you have your delay. So if you want to align the sound board with your mics you have to measure from the main PA system to your microphones so if your mics are 100 feet from the Main P.A then you need roughly 100ms delay time.


Hope this helps I do this kind of stuff all the time but I use a program called Smarrt to figure it out for me. The demo of that program can be downloaded at

http://www.siasoft.com/

Chris Church

Does anyone know if it is possible to use a simple mixer to a introduce a plain delay?  That is, just delay, and not reverb or any other coloration.  If so, would it be possible to use this to do a SBD/AUD mix on the fly by delaying the soundboard to match the mics, then adding them together?

I've got a semi-regular venue I record at.  I'm wondering if a simple mixer might be easier than lugging a laptop.  Currently my mics are hard-wired (AT853 hanging from the ceiling!).  It would be great just to leave a mixer and two track recorder there too.

If a mixer would do this, can anyone recommend a "value" model?  I'm looking at the Behringer UB1202FX, but I'm not sure that does what I want.

Thanks,
  Richard

Hi Chris,

I do this all the time with software: record four tracks, two mic and two soundboard, shift the soundboard over, adjust levels, and add.  But this requires a four track recorder (laptop, or an R4, SD744, etc), which I am trying to avoid.

I was *considering* recording just two tracks, and doing a mix "on the fly".  To do this, I need to delay the soundboard by about 20ms (ie., the 20ft distance from the PA speakers to mics).

So far people have told me to get a four input mixer, and an *external* delay unit, and just dial in 20ms delay.  I suppose this is possible, but it is not cheap to get a good delay unit, as you point out.  It is also a bit complicated.

At first I was hoping a low-end mixer could add delay, but I have not seen one that can:
1) insert delay only (not reverb), and pass only the "wet" channel (and not the original un-delayed stuff).
2) delay only one stereo channel (soundboard/pa), leaving the other stereo channel (mics) alone
3) add delayed and non-delayed channel at the output

If anyone knows of a cheap mixer that will do this, I'd be interested.  I'm not looking for great quality.  Just something I can set up and leave at a club I frequent.

Thanks,
  Richard

[poorlyconditioned]

In your neck of the woods there is a sound company called Sherwood audio talk to Tim they are in Kitchener Ontario they can help you out with a rental of a delay unit that will do the job. you can also talk to Shawn tell him I sent you.
You need a small mixer and a digital delay and some cables If your mic is mono I would just insurt the delay or you can run it from an aux and return it into a spare channel on the mixer then just record the delay return with the mix on 100%fx there is no board made that has a digital delay that is of any use unless you rent an Yamaha o2r and that is just overkill to put it mildly



Chris Church

In order to delay the signal all you need is a small mixer with a VERY GOOD DELAY a shark is a peace of $@$@ and is not good enough You have to insert the delay into the channels that your using here is some of the units you can use for this they can be rented at most rental sound companies for $50 a day or less. Sabine sda-102 cheap but only one input and two outputs ( very cheap to buy ) or the Klark Teknic system delay or last but not least the BSS drive rack. All of these units will work great but the shark will degrade the quality of audio it’s a cheap (the frequency response of the shark) maybe 20 to 20 but the delay is not. Then you have to mix it all together live or you can do this,

If you can record some separate tracks into a multitrack recorder and them dump them down to computer you can do it there, Very well and with good sound quality. The rule of thumb for delay is 1ms per foot. You need a straight delay you want the WHOLE signal that has to be time aligned to be delayed with ZERO feedback unless you want it to sound like you were on LSD. Then mix the sounds together and you have your delay. So if you want to align the sound board with your mics you have to measure from the main PA system to your microphones so if your mics are 100 feet from the Main P.A then you need roughly 100ms delay time.


Hope this helps I do this kind of stuff all the time but I use a program called Smarrt to figure it out for me. The demo of that program can be downloaded at

http://www.siasoft.com/

Chris Church

Does anyone know if it is possible to use a simple mixer to a introduce a plain delay?  That is, just delay, and not reverb or any other coloration.  If so, would it be possible to use this to do a SBD/AUD mix on the fly by delaying the soundboard to match the mics, then adding them together?

I've got a semi-regular venue I record at.  I'm wondering if a simple mixer might be easier than lugging a laptop.  Currently my mics are hard-wired (AT853 hanging from the ceiling!).  It would be great just to leave a mixer and two track recorder there too.

If a mixer would do this, can anyone recommend a "value" model?  I'm looking at the Behringer UB1202FX, but I'm not sure that does what I want.

Thanks,
  Richard

Hi Chris,

I do this all the time with software: record four tracks, two mic and two soundboard, shift the soundboard over, adjust levels, and add.  But this requires a four track recorder (laptop, or an R4, SD744, etc), which I am trying to avoid.

I was *considering* recording just two tracks, and doing a mix "on the fly".  To do this, I need to delay the soundboard by about 20ms (ie., the 20ft distance from the PA speakers to mics).

So far people have told me to get a four input mixer, and an *external* delay unit, and just dial in 20ms delay.  I suppose this is possible, but it is not cheap to get a good delay unit, as you point out.  It is also a bit complicated.

At first I was hoping a low-end mixer could add delay, but I have not seen one that can:
1) insert delay only (not reverb), and pass only the "wet" channel (and not the original un-delayed stuff).
2) delay only one stereo channel (soundboard/pa), leaving the other stereo channel (mics) alone
3) add delayed and non-delayed channel at the output

If anyone knows of a cheap mixer that will do this, I'd be interested.  I'm not looking for great quality.  Just something I can set up and leave at a club I frequent.

Thanks,
  Richard

Thanks for the info.

If I need both a mixer and a delay, I'll probably just stick to my exisiting (laptop) solution.  Or, if the distance /delay is very short, I might just run them into a mixer without a delay.  I'll take a look at Sherwood though.  They've got a lot of gear.  Kinda hard to leave that place without buying anything though!

  Richard

[RebelRebel]

you have a firepod right??why not use plugins for delay?

[RebelRebel]

That is the best way if your unsing a laptop with a sound interface I did not know that was the case.

Chris

you have a firepod right??why not use plugins for delay?

I dont know either, im just guessing, thought I heard him say he had a firepod or box or somehting.