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Author Topic: What's the point in running any other config other than PAS?  (Read 8954 times)

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Offline fanofjam

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Re: What's the point in running any other config other than PAS?
« Reply #60 on: April 08, 2025, 12:18:20 PM »
<donning my Sherlock Holmes mail-in detective kit>

Does anyone else feel that TopHat sounds like that dude from 7 or 10 years ago that spilled shit into the back of his TV and then tried to pawn it off as a warranty issue, then when people gave him shit, he kept unsubbing and coming back as someone else and every time he posted, he'd just keep digging himself deeper and deeper as being the asshole of the century???  Anybody remember his name?

Is Top Hat that same dude reincarnated, or what?!?

Online aaronji

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Re: What's the point in running any other config other than PAS?
« Reply #61 on: April 08, 2025, 12:27:17 PM »
Dillon?

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Re: What's the point in running any other config other than PAS?
« Reply #62 on: April 08, 2025, 02:25:36 PM »
<donning my Sherlock Holmes mail-in detective kit>

Does anyone else feel that TopHat sounds like that dude from 7 or 10 years ago that spilled shit into the back of his TV and then tried to pawn it off as a warranty issue, then when people gave him shit, he kept unsubbing and coming back as someone else and every time he posted, he'd just keep digging himself deeper and deeper as being the asshole of the century???  Anybody remember his name?

Is Top Hat that same dude reincarnated, or what?!?

Not the same dude.
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Offline Top Hat

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Re: What's the point in running any other config other than PAS?
« Reply #63 on: April 08, 2025, 03:22:33 PM »
<donning my Sherlock Holmes mail-in detective kit>

Does anyone else feel that TopHat sounds like that dude from 7 or 10 years ago that spilled shit into the back of his TV and then tried to pawn it off as a warranty issue, then when people gave him shit, he kept unsubbing and coming back as someone else and every time he posted, he'd just keep digging himself deeper and deeper as being the asshole of the century???  Anybody remember his name?

Is Top Hat that same dude reincarnated, or what?!?

Not the same dude.
Party Pooper!!  :yack:

Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: What's the point in running any other config other than PAS?
« Reply #64 on: April 08, 2025, 04:58:47 PM »
Otherwise, could a moderator please let me know how to put someone on ignore?
Go to your profile tab, and next to the words Profile Info there is Modify Profile. That is a pull down menu.
As you hover the mouse over Modify Profile, the menu will pop up and allow you to select Buddies / Ignore list...
Hovering further allows you to edit your ignore list.
Once that's chosen there is a Member: blank at the bottom which lets you search by typing member names.
When you start typing in the blank, the matching names will narrow down with more letters typed
Click ADD when the specific name is in the blank and see if a line is added to your Ignore list.


this link should work for you when you're logged in
https://taperssection.com/index.php?action=profile;area=lists;sa=ignore
Thank You very much for this post morst. Helps to learn new things every now and then.
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Offline Melanie

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Re: What's the point in running any other config other than PAS?
« Reply #65 on: April 08, 2025, 07:15:58 PM »
<donning my Sherlock Holmes mail-in detective kit>

Does anyone else feel that TopHat sounds like that dude from 7 or 10 years ago that spilled shit into the back of his TV and then tried to pawn it off as a warranty issue, then when people gave him shit, he kept unsubbing and coming back as someone else and every time he posted, he'd just keep digging himself deeper and deeper as being the asshole of the century???  Anybody remember his name?

Is Top Hat that same dude reincarnated, or what?!?

Not the same dude.
Maybe not, just a clone of his attitude. Bob
Melanie and Bob

Offline morst

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Re: What's the point in running any other config other than PAS?
« Reply #66 on: April 08, 2025, 09:19:17 PM »

Thank You very much for this post morst. Helps to learn new things every now and then.


SUPER!
Thanks for asking!


« Last Edit: April 10, 2025, 09:10:05 PM by morst »

Offline datbrad

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Re: What's the point in running any other config other than PAS?
« Reply #67 on: April 10, 2025, 08:46:35 AM »
Not sure if I want to wade into this thread again, but I have to add when I am recording outdoors where indirect reflection is not a factor, I stick to 90 degrees. This is based on the notion that minimizing mono summing of the crowd nearest in proximity to the mics and off to the sides can be beneficial because most good cardioid and hypercardioid mics are just as sensitive at 45 degrees off axis as they are directly on axis. The sound energy of the PA will be captured equally either way, but the girls talking 10 feet off to one side of the mic pair will not be as noticable if they are mostly being captured by just one of the mics. As the angle between the mics narrows, the ratio between crowd and music decreases. Indoors the priority is finding the right balance between direct and indirect sound and that is where I find PAS can make the most difference. This view is based on my own experiences, not anything scientific. YMMV as the saying goes....
« Last Edit: April 10, 2025, 08:48:46 AM by datbrad »
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: What's the point in running any other config other than PAS?
« Reply #68 on: April 10, 2025, 01:45:16 PM »
^ Yeah that.

A few things about it..

Practically: 90 degrees is easy to visualize and arrange when using an adjustable stereo mic mount.

Overall: When summed together, a pair of cardioids/supercards with a 90 degree angle between them produces a combined sensitivity pattern that's more-or-less the shape of a single forward facing subcardioid, which IME is generally optimal for recording in good acoustic situations regardless of the specific details of the stereo microphone configuration used to achieve it.

Stereo qualities: As Brad mentions, when we narrow the angle from 90deg and bring it in closer to PAS, we tighten up the combined sensitivity pattern, which increases the ratio of PA and stage sound (music) verses ambient/audience sound. When doing that, we can seek to retain good stereo qualities by increasing the spacing between the pair as the angle is made narrower (this is the basis for improved PAS).  In doing that we increase the time-difference stereo qualities as a way of compensating for the reduction in level-difference stereo brought about by the narrower angle.  The narrowed angle decreases level-differences between channels, while the increased spacing increases time-differences between them.  Ok, nothing new there, but lets dig deeper into it..

When a 90-deg angled cardioid/supercardioid pair is setup with the appropriate spacing between mics, the stereo attributes of the resulting recording will consist of a pretty even balance of level-difference stereo and time-difference stereo.  An 50/50 distribution of level vs time difference is a generally optimal target for a cardioid or supercardioid stereo pair and will be produced by a stereo configuration somewhere between DIN and NOS (a bit more toward the DIN side).  However a 50/50 distribution isn't necessarily the appropriate target if using other polar patterns. To achieve the same near 50/50 distribution using a pair of subcardioids would require them to be setup at 170o/22cm to 180o/23cm. That will produce a combined sensitivity pattern that's basically omnidirectional rather than subcardioid shaped and might work great on-stage, but probably less so out in the audience even in a good room.  If the subcards are angled less than that, we ideally need to use more spacing between them to compensate for the lack of level-difference due to the narrower angle, and the stereo qualities that result will be produced by time-difference more than level-difference.  Omnis even more so.  The stereo qualities that result from that are generally what we expect from those patterns.  The opposite is true for a fig-8 pair.  A coincident Blumlein pair with no spacing between the mics is 100% level-difference stereo with no time-difference and the stereo qualities that result from that are what are generally expected from fig-8s used as a Blumlein pair.  To achieve a 50/50 distribution using fig-8's would require narrowing the angle to 70o with them spaced 34cm apart.  That's not unreasonable for a pair of fig-8's in PAS.  It should produce good stereo qualities and a collective sensitivity pattern that is tic-tac shaped, just as sensitive to sound arriving from behind as from the front, while reducing pickup of talkers and other sounds off to either side of the recording position more than any other configuration that produces roughly the same stereo image width.

A narrowed angle between a PAS pair increases pickup of the music and decreases pickup of audience which is the goal, but like Brad mentions, any obnoxious chatter off to either side which is picked up will tend to have less level difference between channels than if the angle was wider.  If the narrowed angle is not compensated for by increased spacing, that chatter is going to increasingly compete perceptually with the music due to both inhabiting a similar position within the less differentiated stereo image.  Increasing the spacing between the pair helps by perceptually pushing the talkers who were over to one side or the other farther out to the sides in the resulting stereo image keeping them a bit more out of the way of the music.

[Edit- I think the advantage of the increased spacing used by improved PAS is as much about getting the audience out of the way of the music as it is about improving the stereo image width of the musical content itself]
« Last Edit: April 10, 2025, 02:05:33 PM by Gutbucket »
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Offline F0CKER

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Re: What's the point in running any other config other than PAS?
« Reply #69 on: April 15, 2025, 07:15:42 AM »
but the girls talking 10 feet off to one side of the mic pair will not be as noticable if they are mostly being captured by just one of the mics.

Bro, just tell your old lady to keep it down!

This thread got way out of hand, all over mic configs. lol. Here we are talking about angles and not even the distance between caps. I cant wait for that thread to pop up.

queue michael jackson eating popcorn gif.



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Offline capnhook

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Re: What's the point in running any other config other than PAS?
« Reply #70 on: April 15, 2025, 07:57:01 AM »
but the girls talking 10 feet off to one side of the mic pair will not be as noticable if they are mostly being captured by just one of the mics.

Bro, just tell your old lady to keep it down!

This thread got way out of hand, all over mic configs. lol. Here we are talking about angles and not even the distance between caps. I cant wait for that thread to pop up.

queue michael jackson eating popcorn gif.

 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Offline Melanie

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Re: What's the point in running any other config other than PAS?
« Reply #71 on: April 15, 2025, 09:23:03 AM »
but the girls talking 10 feet off to one side of the mic pair will not be as noticable if they are mostly being captured by just one of the mics.

Bro, just tell your old lady to keep it down!

This thread got way out of hand, all over mic configs. lol. Here we are talking about angles and not even the distance between caps. I cant wait for that thread to pop up.

queue michael jackson eating popcorn gif.
You can't tell ANYONE to "keep it down", one member here will "personally throw you out" as you are interfering with the offenders ability to "have a good time". He's also  fine with the people in a movie theater talking loudly during the movie.  After all, they just are having a good time! And movie tickets are cheaper than concert tickets so fuck anyone who expects a certain amount of respect for other patrons (and musicians) trying to enjoy the music that costs significantly more than a movie ticket. But you can buy  popcorn at a movie theater so at least there's that!  As far as mic angles, I try to split the difference between speakers and stage, using cards from center of  balcony lip. I find that it seems to cut down side chatter but still picks up something meaningful from the stage. If vocals seem weak I'll point directly at stacks hoping to improve amount of vocals. I find most hanging stacks have speakers with slight angle pointed inwards which helps. I picked up a set of DPA microdot extensions recently so I'll try to spread out the distance between mics to reduce angle but then lose ability to avoid chatter further away. Usually folks on either side of us are quieter possibly due to respect for the taper, but generally if someone is in the front row of the balcony they are there to hear the music, not to talk during ths show. Bob
« Last Edit: April 15, 2025, 09:34:37 AM by Melanie »
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Offline fanofjam

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Re: What's the point in running any other config other than PAS?
« Reply #72 on: April 16, 2025, 05:26:28 AM »

This thread got way out of hand, all over mic configs. lol.


At least now we all know that we tapers collectively know nothing about stack taping and we're poor planners.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2025, 05:29:21 AM by fanofjam »

Offline Top Hat

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Re: What's the point in running any other config other than PAS?
« Reply #73 on: April 17, 2025, 07:15:23 PM »
Good for you Bob !!! Talk through it more and you will eventually come up with a better plan. That always helps the beginners/novices level up their experience and be more confident with their choices.
 :cheers:
« Last Edit: April 17, 2025, 07:20:07 PM by Top Hat »

Offline Top Hat

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Re: What's the point in running any other config other than PAS?
« Reply #74 on: April 17, 2025, 07:19:19 PM »

This thread got way out of hand, all over mic configs. lol.


At least now we all know that we tapers collectively know nothing about stack taping and we're poor planners.
You will eventually get there the more you practice...Time is on your side, keep practicing!!  :cheers:
« Last Edit: April 17, 2025, 07:31:17 PM by Top Hat »

 

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