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Gear / Technical Help => Cables => Topic started by: hi and lo on January 17, 2012, 12:57:30 PM
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This is a project I'm genuinely interested in making happen. As I see it, I can purchase the genuine Schoeps junction boxes from Vark and 5-pin Binder connectors from Binder to convert a single pair of KC5 cables into separate KCY and AK I cables at a significant cost savings. I could also optimize the cable length of any unbalanced runs I make between capsule and cmc body, so I do see a minor benefit in that area, assuming proper shielding at connectors between the two cables.
So, my questions are:
1) Has anyone done this before and would there by any considerations I am overlooking? Other than identifying a correct value for the capacitor inside the junction box on the KCY (we know Vark omits this; unsure if a genuine AK I cable would have one), it seems this conversion is nothing more than a trivial re-wiring job.
2) Can anyone explain why using a KCY + AK I combo it results in a +5dB increase in sensitivity? Why would this not be the case when using a straight KC5 between the capsule and CMC body?
TIA for any useful info!
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Call redding directly - they can sell you parts (only parts) and have already put a list of required parts - as I asked them to do this for me in the past. I never followed through as I ended up selling my beater KC5's before I decided to pull the trigger.
I would think the best route to go is to take a KS5i and KC5 pair + additional parts to make this happen.
I don't know exactly why there is a +5 db increase in a real KCY>AKI setup - maybe the circuit is slightly different
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Neat idea for sure. I wonder if my KCY>Lemosax setup has a +5 increase in sensitivity ???
And lets not forget that SchoepsNBox can make you a cable to go from mkxx>nbox cable>pfa>any +48v preamp ;)
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Neat idea for sure. I wonder if my KCY>Lemosax setup has a +5 increase in sensitivity ???
it's something in the AK setup as far as I can tell, thats where they mention the signal differences in their online literature.
paging mr.satz.
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But arent trhe AKI cables just binder>binder extensions ??? Because I had Robb make me a 15' KCY Binder>Binder extension. Isnt that the same thing ???
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But arent trhe AKI cables just binder>binder extensions ??? Because I had Robb make me a 15' KCY Binder>Binder extension. Isnt that the same thing ???
http://www.schoeps.de/en/products/aki2c
it's the binder > cmc body piece.
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And lets not forget that SchoepsNBox can make you a cable to go from mkxx>nbox cable>pfa>any +48v preamp ;)
Any idea what he is charging for just the nbox cables?
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And lets not forget that SchoepsNBox can make you a cable to go from mkxx>nbox cable>pfa>any +48v preamp ;)
Any idea what he is charging for just the nbox cables?
Uh, is he even offering that? Just because he can doesn't mean he will.
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The NBox/PFA solution is amazing, no question about it. But reagardless of whether or not they are available individually, the better question to be asking is how well the solution will work using genuine Schoeps made cables. Solutions I can think of include...
- A custom made PFA for the KCY cable. Will cost about $200 to do it right with genuine Schoeps colette cable and a junction box, but will be the most incredibly useful cable ever and will be build to last a lifetime.
- Unterminated MK connectors and having them hard-wired to individual PFAs. This solution would be like having two "CCM" microphones, but with interchangeable cables. Completely badass if you ask me and probably a good bit cheaper than the KCY solution because there are no junction boxes or Binder connectors. This also allows you to run each channel individually and, of course, directly into any mixer or recorder with p48.
- If you've got a complete KC 5 cable, you could also just hack it in half and run into individual PFA's using Binder or Mini XLR connectors while still being able to run with CMC bodies as a complete KC 5 cable. That's a lot like Nola has his active cables setup and is pretty ingenious.
I think I may very well have to be the guinea pig on some of this stuff. Very curious to know if there are any noticeable performance differences between the KCY and Nbox FET designs when used with the PFA. If the standard Schoeps works as well as the Nbox variant, it's certainly the more accessible option.
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Given that I've already got a Vark KCY and various extension cables- I'd love a PFA solution. My Sense was that Jon wasn't interested in doing that.
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The NBox/PFA solution is amazing, no question about it. But reagardless of whether or not they are available individually, the better question to be asking is how well the solution will work using genuine Schoeps made cables. Solutions I can think of include...
- A custom made PFA for the KCY cable. Will cost about $200 to do it right with genuine Schoeps colette cable and a junction box, but will be the most incredibly useful cable ever and will be build to last a lifetime.
- Unterminated MK connectors and having them hard-wired to individual PFAs. This solution would be like having two "CCM" microphones, but with interchangeable cables. Completely badass if you ask me and probably a good bit cheaper than the KCY solution because there are no junction boxes or Binder connectors. This also allows you to run each channel individually and, of course, directly into any mixer or recorder with p48.
- If you've got a complete KC 5 cable, you could also just hack it in half and run into individual PFA's using Binder or Mini XLR connectors while still being able to run with CMC bodies as a complete KC 5 cable. That's a lot like Nola has his active cables setup and is pretty ingenious.
I think I may very well have to be the guinea pig on some of this stuff. Very curious to know if there are any noticeable performance differences between the KCY and Nbox FET designs when used with the PFA. If the standard Schoeps works as well as the Nbox variant, it's certainly the more accessible option.
The MK connectors wired to a PFA would be awesome!! I'm not sure Jon would offer this, but wouldn't hurt to ask so I sent an email to see if this is possible.
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I don't know exactly why there is a +5 db increase in a real KCY>AKI setup - maybe the circuit is slightly different
The bodies are balanced, the KCY is not. That explains +4 dB. I believe the cmc5/6 may add an additional 1dB of gain, but am uncertain.
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Where would you be able to purchse MK connectors?? Vark Audio or would there be a better place.
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Where would you be able to purchse MK connectors?? Vark Audio or would there be a better place.
If I were going to do this, I'd contact three places; Redding, Posthorn, and Vark. We know Vark can make them, not sure on the others although they do sell all the little pieces and parts needed to do it. Other than skipping the junction box and binder plug, I'm not sure what else you'd get for a price reduction, the rest of the cable is the same as a KCY. $100 discount maybe? Better than nothing, especially given the following:
If I had separate access to the "power" (drain) pins of each KC, then the PFA could be balanced input. The KCY has the drains wired together so that's not possible. The PFA output is always balanced, and you get +6dB from that.
One of the most facinating aspects of this would be the potential to have long cmc-less runs. Have your unballanced section be like 3', put the PFA and then a long balanced run back to wherever you need. Not sure it would be much lower profile than just running bodies since you end up with 2 full sized XLR barrels for the adaptors (hanging, nearby, somewhere), but if you don't have bodies, it would make a nice temp solution if you need a long run.
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Posthorn has MK Connectors listed:
KC Cap End KC-- Capsule-side complete only, no cable. $296.00
Someone would need to inquire with Jerry or Redding about what you actually get when you purchase one of these; I assume if there is no cable, then it probably is not assembled as well. Nevertheless, raw colette cable is $8/ft meter and I'm sure Vark would wire them up at reasonable prices. Is it a savings? I dunno... you'll probably get bigger savings simply by finding a lightly used pair of KC 5s and chopping them in half.
I just paid Jon for the first to KCY/KC PFAs. He's sending them to me unterminated and I will buy bulk colette cable and a junction box to make the first KCY PFA. This should be a fun experiment! :)
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No, from MK to PFA could also be balanced; it's probably good to 10m before losses to cable capacitance become an issue.
allsum
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I don't really want a KCY PFA, I would rather have MK>6pin minixlr connection or binder connection>PFA!! Then I could run into any P48 pre and still have my KCY setup. I do have 2 KCY cables so I guess I could have one hacked since it doesn't seem much cheaper to just buy the MK connectors new.
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You will when you see the first KCY PFA! ;D >:D
I'm not sure I understand why you would want to hack one of your KCY's though... That does not seem like a good idea at all.
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It would make a balanced cable!! Then I could use a more flexible cable like Belden 1804a. I'm going to contact a few places to see how much a set of mk would set me back.
You will when you see the first KCY PFA! ;D >:D
I'm not sure I understand why you would want to hack one of your KCY's though... That does not seem like a good idea at all.
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It would make a balanced cable!! Then I could use a more flexible cable like Belden 1804a. I'm going to contact a few places to see how much a set of mk would set me back.
You will when you see the first KCY PFA! ;D >:D
I'm not sure I understand why you would want to hack one of your KCY's though... That does not seem like a good idea at all.
I think I need you to write this out so I understand. Are you planning to just chop the KCY at the point where both MK connectors enter the junction box and then hard-wire PFAs to what will be a very short 1' pigtail?
The cable bewteen the MK connector and Junction box is like to be 3-conductor schoeps colette cable. The cable running from the Junction box to the binder is 4-conductor KS cable. Unless you are OK with 1' pigtails, you're gonna need someone to actually open up the MK connector and rewire them with longer lengths of 3-conductor colette cable.
I think just selling your KCY and having new MK's made would be a better, cheaper, option. No sense in destroying a perfectly good KCY, however chopping a KC in half makes a ton of sense.
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I was thinking of having it recabled from the MK!! Having about 16' of cable terminate into a binder then have a binder PFA to connect to it. I'm still thinking it through so I'll see what happens. I contacted a few places about prices on MK and I'm waiting to hear back. Posthorn has them for $296, but waiting to hear back from Redding and Vark. A used Vark KCY sells for not much more than if not less than the new price of connectors at posthorn. The last Vark KCY in the YS went for like $550ish.
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And lets not forget that SchoepsNBox can make you a cable to go from mkxx>nbox cable>pfa>any +48v preamp ;)
Any idea what he is charging for just the nbox cables?
PM me for details ;)
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But arent trhe AKI cables just binder>binder extensions ??? Because I had Robb make me a 15' KCY Binder>Binder extension. Isnt that the same thing ???
http://www.schoeps.de/en/products/aki2c
it's the binder > cmc body piece.
+T
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And I would LOVE a KCY>PFA Cable so I could run ANY +48v Preamp ;) Count me in :) Its a helluva lot cheaper than buying a VST 62iu :)
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Its a helluva lot cheaper than buying a VST 62iu :)
With alot of these solutions being driven by the high price of a corresponding Schoeps product, it makes you wonder if Schoeps wouldn't just lower their prices at some point, which would be nice.
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hah! that's a good one steve... you're a real jokester! :)
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hah! that's a good one steve... you're a real jokester! :)
He he. I was dreaming.
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Checked with Posthorn, Redding, and Vark. The MK is $296 from you vendor of choice. Redding only had one in stock and Vark was out of them.
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Checked with Posthorn, Redding, and Vark. The MK is $296 from you vendor of choice. Redding only had one in stock and Vark was out of them.
Did you happen to ask if it comes unassembled?
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I didn't
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here is my PFA for the nbox cables. pretty cool. all i need is a 2nd m248 and i'm set. ed
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Have you noticed any sonic differences?? Looks sweet
here is my PFA for the nbox cables. pretty cool. all i need is a 2nd m248 and i'm set. ed
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nope, and for 79 bucks who would of ever thought? no one, until jon. i'm sure there is other products out there doing the same thing/idea, but not for our application. very commendable. ed
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I ran MK5 > Nbox Cables > PSP2 > R44 last night and it absolutely smokes!
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Checked with Posthorn, Redding, and Vark. The MK is $296 from you vendor of choice. Redding only had one in stock and Vark was out of them.
And thats for a SINGLE MK collette cable to connect to the mkxx caps, correct? Some of this is slightly over my head. But iVE NEVER been too good w tech specs. Just give me the damn gear and I'll pull a smokin tape with it tho :P ;D 8) So how much would a KCY>PFA cable cost ??? It would go from 5-Pin Male Binder>PFAs>+48v Phantom Preamp, correct?
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Checked with Posthorn, Redding, and Vark. The MK is $296 from you vendor of choice. Redding only had one in stock and Vark was out of them.
And thats for a SINGLE MK collette cable to connect to the mkxx caps, correct? Some of this is slightly over my head. But iVE NEVER been too good w tech specs. Just give me the damn gear and I'll pull a smokin tape with it tho :P ;D 8) So how much would a KCY>PFA cable cost ???
Correct, that's aprox $300 for a single channel. $600 for a pair, the PFA is like $80 each. It's not cost effective to build your own active cable, never really has been compared to what Vark does (which is essentially build it for you). The advantage that i see is that you get a balanced connection or a different feature set, not a price break. You already own a KCY, just get a PFA to put behind it if that's something your interested in, and read up on the polarization voltage differences.
What hi/lo is proposing is chopping a set of KC5s into 2 pieces, and put the PFA in the middle and not use the body end, or just having the collettes > cables (not together) > pfas.
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Jon told me he can only build a mono 5pin binder PFA because of cabling size. So getting a KCY PFA from Jon isn't going to happen.
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Yup. I'd rather have Jon spending his time making preamps than niche cabling solutions. We've got plenty of good cable makers on the board that solving this problem is really quite trivial.
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Jon told me he can only build a mono 5pin binder PFA because of cabling size. So getting a KCY PFA from Jon isn't going to happen.
well duh, binders are tiny plugs. You don't have to stick the PFA in the binder plug though, just do an adaptor cable that terminates in fullsized XLRs; a female binder > full sized XLR cable and stick the PFA in the XLR barrel. Need a barrel for each due to pin constraints? Have your binder>pfa cable be a Y cable and stick 2 XLR pfas on the end of it. Schoeps cables too thick? Same thing, use thinner cabling for the smaller extension pfa cable. presto, once you do a 1 foot extension cable, you resolve most of the problems.
Yup. I'd rather have Jon spending his time making preamps than niche cabling solutions. We've got plenty of good cable makers on the board that solving this problem is really quite trivial.
Agreed.
If Rob or Ted or Jon can wire a binder>binder cable, I would bet money they could do a Y cable to full sized XLRs, and at that point, you're doing a similar PFA design as what Jon's prescribed for the nbox cables.
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Having done a lot of internal work with actives over the years, and being up to my elbows in active projects right now, I am trying to work out how to offer services for some of these more tricky re-cabling jobs and adapter configs, and also bench testing.
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here is the inside of the xlr for my PFA. same deal on both sides. alittle board heat shrinked and solider in place
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Ed, so thats all I need to go from my KCY>Your Cable>+48v Phantom Preamp ??? If so, I'm down for one ;)
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Here are some pictures of the Nbox PFA I just finished customizing. I used a Schoeps KCY/KLY splitter box and Colette cable to make the PFA bulletproof. The Schoeps splitter box provides the perfect amount of pressure via grooves for strain relief on the Colette cable and is completely shielded. The Colette cable is also well shielded and the extra weight and thickness of the cable makes it preferred for long-term use in a crowded gear box. This cable should now be able to last a lifetime of abuse in the field
I'll be making one of these for the KCY PFA variety later this week, along with hopefully a KC PFA. That should put to rest my desire to make a KCY / AKI setup.
(http://i1191.photobucket.com/albums/z476/hi_and_lo/Nbox/PFAwithcablesCustom.jpg)
(http://i1191.photobucket.com/albums/z476/hi_and_lo/Nbox/PFAwithDR680Custom.jpg)
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nice photos, did you use a large light box for them or what?
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What is the cost to put one of these together??
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Here are some pictures of the Nbox PFA I just finished customizing. I used a Schoeps KCY/KLY splitter box and Colette cable to make the PFA bulletproof. The Schoeps splitter box provides the perfect amount of pressure via grooves for strain relief on the Colette cable and is completely shielded. The Colette cable is also well shielded and the extra weight and thickness of the cable makes it preferred for long-term use in a crowded gear box. This cable should now be able to last a lifetime of abuse in the field
I'll be making one of these for the KCY PFA variety later this week, along with hopefully a KC PFA. That should put to rest my desire to make a KCY / AKI setup.
NICE! - Did you use one of Jon's PFA's as a starting point or did you design your own?
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I can't wait for my KCY PFA!!! >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D
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I can't wait for my KCY PFA!!! >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D
will it be the same as hi and lo's?
do all kcy pfa's need a junction box? i think that i remember jon saying that due to cable size??..
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I can't wait for my KCY PFA!!! >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D
will it be the same as hi and lo's?
do all kcy pfa's need a junction box? i think that i remember jon saying that due to cable size??..
Mine will be hi and lo's first test model :) I think the idea is, yes, you go KCY>binder>junction box>PFAs (each XLR connector is, technically, a PFA).
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>:D >:D >:D
So far so good!
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>:D >:D >:D
So far so good!
so you going to chop the individual kc cables? Say, put a binder plug so you can reconnect the kc5 cables or use the PFA.
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Yeah... for now I am just hard-wiring the PFA's directly to each KC. I will eventually hack them again so that the MK and CMC ends of the KC cable are terminated to 4pin binders and then just leave each PFA with a 1' pigtail, also terminated to Binders.
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First test recording of the KC (PFAs) has gone off without a hitch!... and we're not done yet! >:D 8)
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First test recording of the KC (PFAs) has gone off without a hitch!... and we're not done yet! >:D 8)
>:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D I felt like a mad scientist (well, a mad scientist's assistant, since I had no part in wiring these up) as we set this rig up to run last night. For semi-comparison purposes I ran MK5>CMC6 for the first two bands and we ran MK5>KC5 PFA cables for the second two bands. Obviously each set was mixed differently, but there were no obvious flaws or dropoff in quality between the two different rigs.
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I have two sets of KC5's hacked. The first set I turned into a KCY cable with 5' lead from the junction box. The other I had terminated into ta4 mini xlr connectors. this way I can run either the kcy or kc5's with the cmc6s. this was in case I had to get large splits with them. looks like all I need is some pfa's so I can also run the kc5's at the same time.
(http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r38/NOLAfishwater/1029034206_photobucket_68828_.jpg)
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according to Naiant the PFA's supply 42V polarization to the capsules and should increase the SPL handling, sensitivity, and signal to noise ratio by 3dbs for all three.
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can someone help me out with the pin assignments of my existing hacked kc5 cables. I need to give that info to Jon at Naiant so he can build me some pfa's. Thanks.
The pin assignment on the solder points in the picture:
Center - White << pin 4 I am guessing
2:00 - Silver (Shield) << pin 1 or 3?
6:00 - Green << pin 2
10:00 - Brown << pin 1 or 3?
(http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r38/NOLAfishwater/1029034206_photobucket_67635_.jpg)
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Here's an update to a few questions. As always, safe harbor as this is unproven technology and no manufacturer warranty or guarantee implied. These items are not necessarily available for purchase (at least not through me) and all equipment has been customized for personal use only. Should this spur a community driven KCY PFA solution that is scalable, I won't complain. Jon should be able to take care of you on all of your KC5 needs and he gets all the credit! This is just my hack attempt to put a nice touch on an already amazing product.
can someone help me out with the pin assignments of my existing hacked kc5 cables. I need to give that info to Jon at Naiant so he can build me some pfa's. Thanks.
That's a TA4M, so it looks like it's:
1-Ground
2-Green (60v)
3-Brown (6v)
4-White (Signal)
Hopefully I didn't get that backwards. I wired mine a bit differently (to 4pin binders) to more closely match the 5pin vms layout:
1-Ground
2-White (Signal)
3-Brown(6v)
4-Green(60v)
For reference, the KCY pinout is:
1-Ground
2-White(L Signal)
3-Yellow(R Signal)
4-Brown(6v)
5-Green(60v)
according to Naiant the PFA's supply 42V polarization to the capsules...
Assuming I probably have no idea what I am actually doing, the KC polarization measurement I took was 39v. This drops due to the current draw of the FET in the MK connector and the active circuitry of the PFA.
do all kcy pfa's need a junction box? i think that i remember jon saying that due to cable size??..
More of less. Binder 711 connectors, used on the KCY cables, only support 3-5mm cables. Each cable connecting the XLR and the Binder must be 3-conductor + shield and while there might exist a cable with o.d. of 2.5mm and the necessary number of conductors, it's going to be tinsel thin.
The junction box is a really nice solution, but that part is not available in quantity. I do not know if it is custom made or a rebranded part, but it is extremely well made. It provides perfect strain relief when used with 4mm cables via ridges that compress the extremely durable, kevlar reinforced outer sleeve of the Colette and microphone cable. The entire box is shielded on the interior and there is a custom, removable pcb board that is pre-tinned. It's a really nice part to work with.
I'd like to think that there are other more cost effective junction box solutions that I am simply not aware of because there are all kinds of really good 3-4 conductor cables produces in larger diameters.
What is the cost to put one of these [KCY/Nbox PFA] together??
The million dollar question. It took me about 5 hours to make the first PFA (pictured), plotting carefully and working slowly, and I'm not really sure how to factor that in. The KCY PFA, which I built over the weekend and isn't pictured, took about 3 and was overall a cleaner build. It's probably a 45 minute job with practice and better skills and equipment than have.
As for the parts, I have got to think that there is a more cost efficient solution. Splitting two single channel cables into a single dual channel cable is not a new problem, yet I haven't really found any obviously available parts that do this job well. I am hoping someone can provide input on that.
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spill it d00d
thanks for spilling it.
I could probably have little junction boxes machined. the box probably won't be shielded though.
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spill it d00d
thanks for spilling it.
I could probably have little junction boxes machined. the box probably won't be shielded though.
An interesting prospect. I'm sure the box itself could be machined or molded from plastic and then spray coated with some type of EMI/RFI blocking paint. Haven't researched that, but I don't doubt that it exists.
Then we would just need custom PCB boards created which is pretty easy. There's probably not enough room in the box to do it 'the vark way' by splicing cables together.
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If you get the PCB boards made, just give me the dimension for the box and I can get the junction box machined. Here is EMF shielding paint http://www.lessemf.com/paint.html
I have owned both factory and vark KCY cables and can't tell the difference.
On the KC5>pfa front, I ran it for the first time last night and it sounds great. Next test is to do an AB test with the PFA and CMC6.
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Good info fellas!
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I have run mine with the mk6 in fig8 lip of stage and it sounds great. thinking I might be selling the cmc6 bodies soon.
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I have run mine with the mk6 in fig8 lip of stage and it sounds great. thinking I might be selling the cmc6 bodies soon.
Wow! Words not to be taken lightly! I ran stage lip 21's for Soullive and was also extremely pleased.
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Did you guys get a KCY PFA put together?? I'm curious how you are liking it.
I can't wait for my KCY PFA!!! >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D
will it be the same as hi and lo's?
do all kcy pfa's need a junction box? i think that i remember jon saying that due to cable size??..
Mine will be hi and lo's first test model :) I think the idea is, yes, you go KCY>binder>junction box>PFAs (each XLR connector is, technically, a PFA).
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Did you guys get a KCY PFA put together?? I'm curious how you are liking it.
I can't wait for my KCY PFA!!! >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D
will it be the same as hi and lo's?
do all kcy pfa's need a junction box? i think that i remember jon saying that due to cable size??..
Mine will be hi and lo's first test model :) I think the idea is, yes, you go KCY>binder>junction box>PFAs (each XLR connector is, technically, a PFA).
A few examples on NYCTaper/LMA. All except the Wandering recording also have 2 channels of SBD in them, but I usually favor the aud mics pretty heavily.
http://www.nyctaper.com/?p=9735
http://archive.org/details/as2012-04-11.bowery_acidjack
http://www.nyctaper.com/?p=9508