Topic: Headphones for monitoring while taping

[12milluz]

What are you guys using? I have some nice headphones but they are large. Are they worth carrying along or should I find something small and cheap just for checking if I'm getting sound?

EDIT: sorry this is in the wrong forum. I thought I was in "Ask the Tapers"

[rastasean]

while some headphones do offer incredible sound isolation, it really doesn't make a difference in our line of recording...my humble opinion. not only that but it may be too loud to critically listen. some sound engineers will wear them but they have huge speakers to monitor the mix from the best spot so they may only use them once in awhile.

If you take your headphones (I would take my audio-technica mf50s) and find the sound to be pretty poor while monitoring through you recorder, there wouldn't be much as far as EQing, micing the instruments, vocals, overall general levels that we would be able to effect and fix. Sure it would give you a good idea of what the recording will sound like from where you are but your ears can also do that.

what you should do a loud shows is wear ear plugs so you can hear the important detail of your recording later on. many legendary musicians are nearly deaf because they neglected to protect their hearing at young ages.

be smart and wear your plugs!

[page]

agreed, always wear plugs.

If you *have* to monitor for general sound ideas, then I recommend a set of IEMs like the etymotic ER-6s. They will have the most isolation so you don't have to use extra volume that will harm your hearing.

[12milluz]

Thanks for the advice, I'll get some plugs. So it sounds like you guys don't really monitor at all via headphones? It'd save a helluva lot of room in my gear bag...

[danlynch]

Wow, I couldn't disagree more.  I carry along my Sennheiser (HD 555) headphones to every show, and use them in particular when I'm running 4-tracks.  Given that the board feeds I receive in various venues can vary significantly, I really want to know what's coming into those two channels early on in the recording process.  The well-padded ear cones on these particular phones can isolate any problems even in a really loud room.   Even when I'm running straight aud, the phones can help with mic placement and positioning.   

[12milluz]

Wow, I couldn't disagree more.  I carry along my Sennheiser (HD 555) headphones to every show, and use them in particular when I'm running 4-tracks.  Given that the board feeds I receive in various venues can vary significantly, I really want to know what's coming into those two channels early on in the recording process.  The well-padded ear cones on these particular phones can isolate any problems even in a really loud room.   Even when I'm running straight aud, the phones can help with mic placement and positioning.   

See this is what I expected. I'm surprised to see different opinions on this as well. But keep 'em comin!

[yltfan]

I bring my big Sony cans, mostly to make sure nothing is really messed up. Several times they have saved the day with the SBD feed. I'm usually not able to hear enough to really know how everything sounds, but I can tell if a signal is way too hot for whatever I'm taping with, or if something is really wrong with the signal I'm getting (turned out one of the board outputs was fried--it was nice to figure it out during the opener). I say bring em along, just don't expect to be able to hear much over the room sound.

[John Willett]

My standard cans for this are the Sennheiser HD 25-1 (now HD 25-1 II), these are pretty well the industry standard for sound recordists in the UK.

They are extremely efficient (120dB) and work well with battery equipment - you don't have to turn the level up so much and the batteries will therefore last longer.

[Ozpeter]

Seconded the HD25's.

It might not be necessary to actually monitor during a performance - indeed, perhaps close to impossible or even risky to your hearing if it's loud stuff - but a quick check in the cans before the event starts can reveal unexpected hums or even total silence if there's some kind of equipment fault which you might be able to sort out before kick-off.

[jlykos]

I never monitor while recording; it is too loud and I don't want to damage my hearing.  If I did, it would be with a set of IEMs that provide good isolation.  I have Westones; the Etymotics were also mentioned here.  I think that either would be a good choice.

[refrain]

... Sennheiser HD25 or Sony MDR 7506 (or 7509 HD), they're industry standards, precise, i've changed for the sony's after 12 years with the HD 25, for me the diference is
the sony's are more isolated, but the senn's are more natural... it depends on the stuff you're recording, be it indoors or outdoors,  but i always use headphones for monitoring...

[stevetoney]

In the grand scheme, whether you monitor or not depends almost entirely on two things...first is whether your rig is new to you or not.  If it's new to you and you're uncertain about such things as settings, levels, etc then monitoring is obviously recommended so you can correct anything that's wrong before it's too late.  Once you get confident of your setup, you probably won't need to lug your headphones around with you because all you need to monitor during the show is levels to have a high level of confidence that you're getting a good quality recording.  From my experience, most tapers know their gear well enough that they don't need to monitor through headphones.

The second factor, as Dan Lynch suggested previously, is if you have alot of variables in your recording scenario that you'd want to monitor the output to ensure that nothing is outta whack.  Once the music starts, if there's lots of tweeking going on because, for example, you're running 4 channels or you're doing mid-side and mixing on the fly, they you probably wouldn't want to trust fate and find out afterwards that you could have fixed something had you been monitoring.

[H₂O]

I never monitor the recording and never have.


Where earplugs, leave the headphones at home, monitor your levels using the level meters, and enjoy the show (don't obsess over monitoring).


With 24bit you can fix most any level issue in post (as long as you don't run too hot) - and since you typically are not mixing the sound this should not be much.


If you are mixing 4 tracks down to 2 or M/S to stereo while recording then you will probably want headphones - but I would not suggest this as again this can all be done in post pretty quickly and with a lot more flexibility.

[stevetoney]

I will say this about monitoring...this may not be a specific reason to monitor, but I do find it fun and interesting to listen during a show to get a feel for exactly what my rig is doing to the recording.  When you listen through phones that have good sound isolation and then listen live, you get an understanding, for example, of how much reverb sound that your hypers are cutting out or how much low end your preamp is passing through.  You do get a feel for how 'transparent' you rig really is by comparing what it sounds like live and what it sounds like through the phones.  Obviously, those conclusions need to be tempered by the fact that your phones may have their own sound characteristics too.  Also, if you have a 7xx, the ability to isolate the left channel from the right channel separately can be fun to play with during the show just to compare and see...say...how much stereo separation you might be able to hear between the two channels (guitar loud left, not as loud right, for example).

[gratefulphish]

Well, obviously there are two completely separate schools of thought here.  I am with the "always monitoring" group.  I bring my Sennheiser HD-280s to every show, and use them extensively.  They give me complete isolation, and the pre-amp in the 722 lets you hear everything crystal clear.  I cannot count how many recording that they have "saved."  I can do everything from figuring out whether a board feed has a bunch of noise in it, to telling whether a ceiling fan or unseen AC vent is blowing across the mic enough to need to put the screens on.  I also listen and adjust mic positioning, if necessary, due to stage/PA sound imbalance.  I don't leave home without them. My $0.02

[rastasean]

my school of though is that we cannot effect the MIX of the PA speakers. Remember all we are doing is placing mics in an ideal place at the good height and recording. Our quality recordings greatly depend on the mix done by the engineer. This is an over simplification because mic placement and positioning (not to mention the actual mics) can make a huge difference but I can't imagine packing my headphones with me when recording though my 09hr and ca14 cards.

For those who always take headphones, what would you do if there was too much guitar or bass in the PA mix? What if the high EQ levels sucked or the lows? What if the vocals were low in comparison to the instruments? How would you fix this pre-post with your headphones while recoding? 

[danlynch]

I realize your last paragraph is largely rhetorical, but I think you'd understand a lot of what the headphone-carriers do with their phones if you'd, you know, actually read other people's posts.   Here's a hint.  We know we can't effect the room mix.

[page]

So mic position and general "am I getting something of reasonable signal" aside, what else would you use it for?

Also, maybe I have an inflated sense of time committed to monitoring, but I'm just seeing a 2in check at the beginning (preferably soundcheck if possible) and then back to the performance as normal. Right?

[notlance]

I use the Sennheiser HD 280 headphones: very good isolation, fairly efficient, less than $100.  Good octave to octave balance, with perhaps a little too much bass, which helps me hear LF noise during the recording.  Then I can decide whether or not to use a HPF.

[danlynch]

Here's an example.  I'm running 4-tracks at the Bell House for Steve Wynn last June.  I'm recording the opening act to monitor the sound.  About halfway through the opener, the drums all of a sudden become overwhelming in the soundboard feed.  The levels look fine, but I can hear a very distinct brickwalling sound in the drums.  In between sets, I talk to the sound guy who tells me that he changed the drum input.  He changes it back and as a result, the Wynn recording is one of the best I made all year.  There's no way I would haver heard that without good headphones and it would have ruined the recording.

Here's another example.  I'm recording 4-tracks of the After The Jump Festival at Littlefield last August.  During the first song of The Suckers set, I hear this weird intermittant rattling sound in the board feed.  After a little investigation, it seems to be a problem with the mic'ing of the snare drum.  I talk to the sound guy who isolates it on his phones and sure enough its a loose cable on the snare drum microphone.  He fixes it on stage and all is fine.  No way I hear that without monitoring.

These are not isolated examples.  I can think of at least another half-dozen times (in Maxwell's and Glasslands in particular) where monitoring saved the day.

Obviously, headphones are not practical or even necessary for many tapers.  If you're a CA Card > R-09 press-record-and-pray kind of taper, headphones make little sense at all.   But given the variety of taping situations I find myself in every week, I find them absolutely indispensible.

[Gutbucket]

Lots of good points made here.  Different styles and different uses.  I don't typically monitor, but I do sometimes when I'm figuring out a new mic configuration or tweaking my setup for a specific venue.  You can never get enough isolation to really monitor critically, but you can get enough to check for problems or to make general setup decisions. When I do I use Etymoctic ER4 in-ears modified with the strongest isolating foam earplugs I can find to try and improve the isolation as much as possible.  I find their isolation is better than any 'circumaural' closed cans I've used, plus they are small and easily to carry, but a PITA to put in and out.  The closed Senn or Sony cans others mentioned are much easier to throw on for a quick check and so are much more likely to get used.  They can also be passed to a friend to share a listen.  It's fun to monitor another tapers rig at the show or to share yours with other tapers and interested bystanders.  Wordless smiles happen.  I always dig throwing on Gratefulphish's cans for a minute whenever I see him out at a gig.

The occasions in which the Ety's have been most useful for me is in making the effort and taking the time to dial in the mic position, A-B spacing and height of omnis at a couple outdoor amphitheaters by changing those things while listening.  The changes made by adjusting all three of those variables was significant and easy enough to hear even with the still significant bass bleed.  The variable that suprised me most was how significant varrying mic height can be- at one venue in particular the I found the 'sweet height' restricted to a pretty narrow region around a foot or two over head height- any higher was audibly inferior.  I certainly don't usually do all that very often though, usually falling back on what I've learned works in that venue or in a similar situation in the past.  Depends if I have the time, inclination, a throw-away source and the motivation.  Just wanted to point out that in addition to checking for problems it can be a suprising leaning tool, even if you know what your doing.. and a cool thing to share.

[gratefulphish]

my school of though is that we cannot effect the MIX of the PA speakers.

Well, technically both correct and incorrect.  The engineer is setting the levels, but they are, in fact, human beings, subject to error, and in many cases, can have certain sound issues brought to their attention, which they can then effect.  Roughly 99% of my recording is in small venues, either near or far. In the local venues, every sound guy knows me, knows what I do, and generally knows that I have a fairly good idea of what I am talking about, so they tend to listen and make adjustments.  I also tend to personally know many of the bands that I record, and frequently their traveling sound guys, and have no issue letting them know if something really sounds amiss.

Remember all we are doing is placing mics in an ideal place at the good height and recording. Our quality recordings greatly depend on the mix done by the engineer.

See above.  Even if you cannot or fear approaching the sound guy, you can effect your recording substantially by relocating or reorienting your mics, to deal with the sonic issues that you are encountering.

This is an over simplification because mic placement and positioning (not to mention the actual mics) can make a huge difference but I can't imagine packing my headphones with me when recording though my 09hr and ca14 cards.

Yes, and having the admitted luxury of a 722, with a headphone preamp that allows me to hear everything, along with excellent headphones in terms of both isolation and reproduction, as well as TLM-170s, with switchable polar patterns and bass roll-off, I can make significant changes to my recording, even without the cooperation of a sound guy.

For those who always take headphones, what would you do if there was too much guitar or bass in the PA mix?

See above, but in most small locations bass is rarely in the mix at all.  Too much guitar might lead me to a wider pattern, so that the PA sound was coming furhter off axis.
 

What if the high EQ levels sucked or the lows?

Again, see above, but EQ can usually be adequately addressed in post.
 

What if the vocals were low in comparison to the instruments?

Once again, see above, but otherwise, I might relocate or reorient my mics so that they are getting as much as possible from one or both PA stacks.
 

How would you fix this pre-post with your headphones while recoding?

I can't fix the lack of vocals in post, which is another classic demonstration of why I want to hear what's going into the deck, so that I don't go home, and find a bassy show, with weak vocals, and a really loud booming kick drum coming from the subs.  You can't recreate a lack of vocals after the fact, so you either need to say something, or do something, otherwise, you might as well turn off your gear, and just listen to the show.

[page]

Here's an example.  I'm running 4-tracks at the Bell House for Steve Wynn last June.  I'm recording the opening act to monitor the sound.  About halfway through the opener, the drums all of a sudden become overwhelming in the soundboard feed.  The levels look fine, but I can hear a very distinct brickwalling sound in the drums.  In between sets, I talk to the sound guy who tells me that he changed the drum input.  He changes it back and as a result, the Wynn recording is one of the best I made all year.  There's no way I would haver heard that without good headphones and it would have ruined the recording.

Here's another example.  I'm recording 4-tracks of the After The Jump Festival at Littlefield last August.  During the first song of The Suckers set, I hear this weird intermittant rattling sound in the board feed.  After a little investigation, it seems to be a problem with the mic'ing of the snare drum.  I talk to the sound guy who isolates it on his phones and sure enough its a loose cable on the snare drum microphone.  He fixes it on stage and all is fine.  No way I hear that without monitoring.

These are not isolated examples.  I can think of at least another half-dozen times (in Maxwell's and Glasslands in particular) where monitoring saved the day.

Obviously, headphones are not practical or even necessary for many tapers.  If you're a CA Card > R-09 press-record-and-pray kind of taper, headphones make little sense at all.   But given the variety of taping situations I find myself in every week, I find them absolutely indispensible.

Ok, that makes more sense. Cool that you have responsive sound people and venues. Thanks.

[rastasean]

Thank you gratefulphish & danlynch for your personal, first hand experience.

You two make excellent points why and where headphone usage would be ideal. You have acquired excellent listening skills because of your attention to detail and ability to isolate certain parts of loud music. The ability to get a sbd patch and discuss important matters with the engineer are two great qualities. perhaps if I frequented smaller bars/clubs on slower nights to tape just whoever, I would have better luck doing this as well.

If you do not do a sbd patch and have headphones, I think it is equally important to listen with your headphones AND your ears to hear the sonic acoustics of the room. Obviously we know not to set up in the bad part of the room--with or without headphones from listening to how the music sounds throughout the club/bar.

it would be interesting to see if the average non-taper music goer could tell the difference of a live (live...not recorded live) set with a different eq mix and various incorrect microphone placements.

Excellent points for top notch tapers who show that they would rather get a great recording rather than attempt to fix it in post.

with all of this said, i wouldn't personally use my Sony MDR 7506 to monitor in a loud club because I don't feel like they would provide enough isolation.

how do the senn hd 280s fit? I like my entire ear to feel covered and it to be rather tight and not loose like the sonys. 

[DigitalIndigo]

I'll throw my hand into the "always monitor" camp as well.  I keep a pair of Etymotic ER-4's in my gear bag, and use them every time.  Several reasons:

1) As others have noted, it's great being able to hear what's being recorded and make adjustments on the fly.  Many times I have adjusted the position of my mics based on what I hear.  Sometimes it's subtle, but the difference is noticeable.  Also, it pays to have a feel for what noises you are picking up, whether it be air movement, hums or rattles, or crowd noise.  I've actually had to move my mics before to get a particularly chatty person off-axis to save a recording ( or at least make it better).

2) I record a lot of house concerts, which are off-mic, un-amplified affairs.  The dynamic range can be massive in these circumstances.  Being accustomed to my equipment, I can hear when it's getting too close to clipping and adjust accordingly.  It allows me to enjoy the show without having to obsess about levels, particularly when the problem might be just one song long.

3)  I find it's great to compare the recorded sound to the ambient sound.  If I hear a significant difference, I start figuring out the problem and looking for a solution.

4)  The Etymotics are basically earplugs, which allows you to adjust the sound to your preference and keep it lower than damaging levels.  When the house is really loud, I just turn the volume down on the Ety's and use them as plugs.

5)  Finally, having the headphones there allows for instant playback.  It's particularly helpful if you record an opener and think you have a problem.  You can listen right there and make any necessary adjustments.