Topic: M-10 or LS-11 best for surf sounds

[anatta]

Painfully ignorant noob, I know, but my interest is in ambient nature recording with handheld internal mic recorder (not w/external mics), and I really have no clue what frequency (hz), for example, a crashing surf on rocks is likely to fall aound.  So I am asking  does anyone know whether recording surf sounds would lose something through an LS-11 (or LS-10) due to  reputed "bass roll-off" -- and so I would be better served in this respect by the Sony M-10 -- or whether the surf crash frequency would not get rolled off, and my decision-making could disregard this concern?

Sorry for a lack of clarity, but it's the best I can manage at present.

Thanks

[acidjack]

Not really my area of expertise, but I know the M10 is reputed to have among the better internals in the small recorders, and their internals are omnis, which seems better for what you're doing.  I don't know much about the olympus units at all, but the M10 is what I use.  Great battery life, good preamp, easy to use. 

[rastasean]

five pages of useful posts here discussing the two recorders but nothing specific to what you're wanting to record.
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=132409.0

the vast majority of people will say to achieve the best results, external mics and/or a pre-amp would be necessary. the ls11 has cardioid microphones whereas the m10 has omnidirectional and due to the mic placement, it can sound a little mono.
I'm sure the freq response on both are pretty damn good and close (not identical) to each other.

[admkrk]

unless you are standing on the rocks i dought you will be getting high enough levels for any kind of "roll off" to matter, and probly not even then. staying above the noise floor is going to be your biggest problem.

[andromedanwarmachine]

Hi Anatta...

I have some experience of recording surf sounds and there are two primary things to consider.

Firstly- wind noise! A major effort will have to be made to get the appropriate fluffy cover for the mics as beaches and wind go together big time.
Secondly- Mid/HF slush! No matter how good your gear- inevitably surf ends up sounding like hiss unless you get mic placement right. I would go really low down to get the "froth" after the wave, you know? And don't use the roll-off if there's rocks as you want that CRASH!

JimP

[sunjan]

the vast majority of people will say to achieve the best results, external mics and/or a pre-amp would be necessary. the ls11 has cardioid microphones whereas the m10 has omnidirectional and due to the mic placement, it can sound a little mono.

What he said. You should worry less about which recorder you buy, and more about allocating money to buy external mics and a pre.
Tell us your budget in total, and we'll suggest the best rig for the purpose.

[earmonger]

Surf sounds are very much like white noise: All frequencies at once, high and low, varying as the wave hits.  The LS-11's bass roll-off will definitely make the recordings sound tinnier, and I'd think you would prefer the PCM-M10's omnis to get the enveloping sound of the ocean.  But the PCM-M10 also rolls off the bass under (IIRC) 80 Hz.

I have the PCM-M10 and think it's a great unit.

Really, get full-frequency-range mics. Even inexpensive ones like Sound Professionals BMC-2, which come with windscreens and are incredibly cheap right now, $30 http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-BMC-2 . (SoundPros usually makes them around $50.) That's going to be about the price of a fleece windscreen for the PCM-M10, and money better spent.

Then you can get better stereo imaging and keep the PCM-M10 dry in a plastic bag.

[flintstone]

Recording the sounds of water in its many forms is a real challenge.  Most recordings made from a single mic position end up sounding like they were recorded in your bathroom at home.  The pros make recordings at several distances from the water source, then mix the recordings into one to produce the final result.  Up close to the surf you'll get the booming of the waves.  Farther back at the water line you'll capture the hiss of the retreating waves and the clattering of small pebbles as the water recedes.  Away from the water's edge, the cries of gulls will be more prominent.  And so on.

For advice and commiseration about the difficulties of nature recording, check out the Yahoo group
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/naturerecordists/

Flintstone

[anatta]

Thanks all for the constructive suggestions.  So I take it that a set of external omnis (not cards?) is preferable for this application to simply using the M10 internals and then attempting post edit to achieve a separation/more space sound stage?

Thanks

Frank

[rastasean]

Yes, I think omnidirectional would be ideal. I am looking for a pair of the discontinued AT3032s because they seem very popular for nature style recordings but I have yet to find a pair. The AT4022s replaced them but cost much more than the at3032s did at a new price.