Topic: Marantz 661 (Oade Concert Mod) with Core Sound HEB's

[bhoy]

Has anyone run Core Sound HEB's into an Oade Concert Mod Marantz PMD661?  I just got this new deck and I am trying to learn a bit more about before I take it out in the field.  My previous gear was: Core Sound HEB's > battery box > Oade mod SBM-1 Line In > Sony PCM-M1 DAT.

I remember the HEB's putting out a loud signal that used to brickwall the older Sony D7's. I've also read reports of people brickwalling the 661's.  I never had any problems with the SBM-1 line in.

My plan is to run HEB's > battery box > 1/8 stereo to two XLR cable > 661 mic in at -18dB attenuation, phantom power off.  Would I be better off using line in on the 661?  Most of the shows I do are loud arena shows, or loud club shows.

Also, I'm considering getting a new set of HEB's.  Is it possible to take the battery box out of the system and just use phantom power on the 661?  Might I just be able to buy the DPA4061 capsules and power them from the deck?
 
I'd love to hear from anyone who has experience with any of these mics and decks.

Thanks,
Bill

[jb63]

I tried exactly that combination and was unable to get the levels I liked.
I used exactly the same chain, and tried to swap out the M1 for the 661.
(I can tell you that if you have the COAX mod on your SBM-1, then you can run it right into the digital in on the 661 and enjoy pretty close to the exact same tapes you used to make.)

Problem with getting it into the OADE Mod part of the 661 is much like the problem with the SBM-1 and the RCA jacks:
The 1/4" Line in jack is not Modified in the chain, you have to use the XLR in.
I had Ted make me a nice cable for this:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=138805

I still have that cable if you need it, but I imagine i will use it again one day...

Now, as you can see in the post, I had essentially a Super Mod, and that may have been part of it, but looking at Doug's specs I don't think so. The 2 mods are similar enough.

My problem is that I could just not get the levels high enough.
I think there was ONE show where I was ON TOP of a trumpet player where I had to turn the levels down from 11, but I just could not get enough gain with the pad at zero for this combination to satisfy. (to be fair, I was taping mostly electric jazz in small clubs.)

Now sure, the tapes are 24/96, so they could be boosted in post and sound just fine, but I was used to wiggle room, and unless you are taping Metallica every night (and hey, maybe you are!), I doubt you'd get what you wanted out of the combo. Plus you can't phantom power your CSHEB's with the 661.

So the chain you describe looks just right with LINE IN for loud Rock Shows, and I doubt that you will need the full -18db attenuation.
Is it possible to go MIC IN with phantom power off? I never tried that! I don't know why, but I never did. I just liked that clean Line in with SBM-1 and never gave it a 2nd thought...

-18db attenuation will probably be necessary if that's the case, but I'd say set the pad to zero and go line in on a test run and see what you think. I can find a sample I did like this if you give me a few days to dig it up.

jb

Hey, if your sources are loud enough, this combo might be just right!

[fmaderjr]

So the chain you describe looks just right with LINE IN for loud Rock Shows, and I doubt that you will need the full -18db attenuation.
Attenuation setting only kicks in when going mic in. It has no effect when going line in.
And it actually performs no attenuation. -18  = 0 attenuation, -12 = 6 dB boost, etc.
Is it possible to go MIC IN with phantom power off? I never tried that! I don't know why, but I never did. I just liked that clean Line in with SBM-1 and never gave it a 2nd thought...
Sure it is.
-18db attenuation will probably be necessary if that's the case, but I'd say set the pad to zero and go line in on a test run and see what you think. I can find a sample I did like this if you give me a few days to dig it up.

[su6oxone]

Attenuation setting only kicks in when going mic in. It has no effect when going line in.
And it actually performs no attenuation. -18  = 0 attenuation, -12 = 6 dB boost, etc.

Thanks for that tidbit, I had no idea it was true.  For 'line' input I always selected '0' for attenuation, but evidently that means it added quite a bit of gain (about 12dB I would guess)? 

[fmaderjr]

0 Attenuation would be adding 18 dB of gain, since -18 "attenuation" is actually 0 attenuation/0 gain. But no gain is added when going line in-only when going mic in. When you go line in it doesn't matter what the attenuation setting is.

I think this is true with most or possibly even all of the recorders that we use. Ones that have a -20 dB and 0 db setting generally are providing 0 attenuation at -20 db and a 20 db boost at 0 dB. 

[su6oxone]

0 Attenuation would be adding 18 dB of gain, since -18 "attenuation" is actually 0 attenuation/0 gain.

I think this is true with most or possibly even all of the recorders that we use. Ones that have a -20 dB and 0 db setting generally are providing 0 attenuation at -20 db and a 20 db boost at 0 dB.

Wish I had known this long time ago, thanks.

[bhoy]

Thanks for the replies.  So, from what I've read, it seems like I might have the opposite problem - not getting enough gain to get decent levels?

Am I reading this right?  If I take my Core Sound HEB's, use the battery box they came with, convert 1/8th stereo to two XLR and use the XLR inputs on the 661, I won't get a loud enough signal?  I remember years ago, I brickwalled the M1's mic input on the lowest sensitivity setting, before I realized I need to use line in.  I've had great luck on Line In of either the mod SBM-1, or the M1 by itself.  Again, I do mostly hard rocks shows - clubs to arenas.  No problems with high levels, no brickwalling.  I figured the 661 would need the -18dB setting and maybe even more attenuation to avoid brickwalling.

What if I buy a new set of DPA4061's, not the Core Sound battery box version, and power them with the 661?  Would that situation be any better?

Thanks,
Bill

[datbrad]

Thanks for the replies.  So, from what I've read, it seems like I might have the opposite problem - not getting enough gain to get decent levels?

Am I reading this right?  If I take my Core Sound HEB's, use the battery box they came with, convert 1/8th stereo to two XLR and use the XLR inputs on the 661, I won't get a loud enough signal?  I remember years ago, I brickwalled the M1's mic input on the lowest sensitivity setting, before I realized I need to use line in.  I've had great luck on Line In of either the mod SBM-1, or the M1 by itself.  Again, I do mostly hard rocks shows - clubs to arenas.  No problems with high levels, no brickwalling.  I figured the 661 would need the -18dB setting and maybe even more attenuation to avoid brickwalling.

What if I buy a new set of DPA4061's, not the Core Sound battery box version, and power them with the 661?  Would that situation be any better?

Thanks,
Bill

There is a big difference in the gain structure between the balanced XLR inputs on the 661, versus 1/8th inch stereo mini on an M1, or the unbalanced inputs on an SBM. With the Marantz, most people using phantom powered condenser mics with balanced XLR outputs are reporting they typically need the -18 setting going straight in to avoid brickwalling, regardless of the unit being stock or concert/warm modded. I used mine once for a stealth application using DPA 4061s with the XLR connections, and still needed to run the 661 at -12 attenuation, so I expect your issue is your mics are a poor match for that recorder.

The mics you are using might be better suited for a recorder like the R09. The PMD661 needs mics with strong balanced outputs. When using line in, the XLRs are set for +4db professional line level. This means you need a really beefy preamp if you are going to go that route to bring up the mics you have to pro line level. So, either you need a preamp, or a mic upgrade, or switch recorders.

Hope this helps.

[jb63]

I used mine once for a stealth application using DPA 4061s with the XLR connections, and still needed to run the 661 at -12 attenuation, so I expect your issue is your mics are a poor match for that recorder.

Hi Brad.
So when you did this, you were running MIC in/Phantom power off, right?
So that is a good guess at how to set that up if Bill already has al this stuff and wants to give it a go.

I agree that these mics are a poor match with this deck, but if I had known all that about the Line vs Mic in stuff that I just learned on this page, I'm sure I could have made it work. How much more "color" can one expect when running this setup Mic in?

Thanks!

[datbrad]

I used mine once for a stealth application using DPA 4061s with the XLR connections, and still needed to run the 661 at -12 attenuation, so I expect your issue is your mics are a poor match for that recorder.

Hi Brad.
So when you did this, you were running MIC in/Phantom power off, right?
So that is a good guess at how to set that up if Bill already has al this stuff and wants to give it a go.

I agree that these mics are a poor match with this deck, but if I had known all that about the Line vs Mic in stuff that I just learned on this page, I'm sure I could have made it work. How much more "color" can one expect when running this setup Mic in?

Thanks!

The DPA 4061s require 48v phantom when used with the XLR to microdot connector. So, it was XLR mic in, phantom on, attenuation set at -12db. I was recording an acoustic show and probably could have used less attenuation since I was using the DPA lapel mic model with lower sensitivity. The battery powered mics like the coresound have a lower output level, so I think it would be fine to adjust the attenuation setting on the 661 to whatever will allow you to set the gain control between "5" and "7" on the dial, even if that means "0", or no attenuation. If the OP can't get good levels with the 661 gain knob set no higher than "7", with the attenuation off, you will have to change mics, recorders, or add a preamp to correct the problem.

As far as "color", I can't comment as I have not done a comp with the same mics straight in, versus with a preamp line in.

[fmaderjr]

I think it would be fine to adjust the attenuation setting on the 661 to whatever will allow you to set the gain control between "5" and "7" on the dial, even if that means "0", or no attenuation.

DATBRAD-I know you know this machine well, so can you confirm that you are sure that the 0 attenuation setting really means 0 attenuation?

On most recorders, I think the attenuation setting is not attenuating but is really just a 0 boost and the no attenuation setting really is a boost. I know this is true of the Sony DAT decks and I thought is was true of the Marantz as well.

It would be good to know that I was incorrect about the Marantz because obviously it is a better design if the machine really offers attenuatation.

[datbrad]

I think it would be fine to adjust the attenuation setting on the 661 to whatever will allow you to set the gain control between "5" and "7" on the dial, even if that means "0", or no attenuation.

DATBRAD-I know you know this machine well, so can you confirm that you are sure that the 0 attenuation setting really means 0 attenuation?

On most recorders, I think the attenuation setting is not attenuating but is really just a 0 boost and the no attenuation setting really is a boost. I know this is true of the Sony DAT decks and I thought is was true of the Marantz as well.

It would be good to know that I was incorrect about the Marantz because obviously it is a better design if the machine really offers attenuatation.

From my conversations with Doug Oade, I got that there is no "attenuation" in the traditional sense, having a unity gain level and input that is attenuated with a variable resistive pad in the circuit. The attenuator on the 661 is basically a sensitivity setting, as I recall. I don't think it's another source of gain in addition to the preamp, just a starting off point if you will, for the mic preamp gain to work with.

This is just what my fuzzy memory can remember about this topic, so I will have to leave you with that caveat.

[fmaderjr]

Thanks.

[aaronji]

It is my understanding, also from a conversation with Doug Oade, that the mic attenuation on the 661 (and the 620) decreases the signal level by "changing the value of the feedback resistors on the mic preamp thereby adjusting gain".  No gain at the 0db setting and "negative gain" at the other settings.

The wording in the manual also suggests that the settings affect the level of the signal:

• 0dB:     No microphone attenuation.
• -6dB:    Input from a microphone(s) connected to the MIC jack is cut by 6dB.
• -12dB:  Input from a microphone(s) connected to the MIC jack is cut by 12dB.
• -18dB:  Input from a microphone(s) connected to the MIC jack is cut by 18dB.

This is the same as with the PMD620, although with different values (0, -12, and -24).  In contrast, I think the PMD660 used a pad...

[fmaderjr]

Thanks for your reply aaronjii. Doug Oade would know. I wasn't going to go by the wording in the manual, because the old Sony DAT manuals made it sound like the -20 dB setting was attenuating when actually the 0 dB setting was boosting.

[jb63]

The DPA 4061s require 48v phantom when used with the XLR to microdot connector. So, it was XLR mic in, phantom on, attenuation set at -12db.

Let's see here...
(I almost forgot about this thread, since I'm not running this combo any more.)

So the dpa4061s that Len puts together use their own battery box that supplies the 48v phantom.
You were running a set that didn't have that, right?
Call me stupid, but does the 661 provide 48v straight up the line to the mics like that?

Could one simply unplug Len's battery and use the mic in & phantom from the 661 without frying the mics?

That is to say, is it possible to actually USE a set of Core Sound HEB's with the 661 in this way without modifying them?

[fmaderjr]

So the dpa4061s that Len puts together use their own battery box that supplies the 48v phantom.

Len's battery box provides no more than 9 volts plug in power. I think I heard it might be a little less.

48 volts will fry DPA 4060's-they can't take much more than 9 volts or so.

Dadbrad always seems to know what he's talking about, so if DPA's with the XLR to microdot connector require 48 volts, there must be something in the connector that steps the voltage down to 9 volts or less. I have such an converter that allows me to plug my DPA's with 1/8 plug into the phantom power of the 661 and steps the voltage down to about 9 volts.

[datbrad]

So the dpa4061s that Len puts together use their own battery box that supplies the 48v phantom.

Len's battery box provides no more than 9 volts plug in power. I think I heard it might be a little less.

48 volts will fry DPA 4060's-they can't take much more than 9 volts or so.

Dadbrad always seems to know what he's talking about, so if DPA's with the XLR to microdot connector require 48 volts, there must be something in the connector that steps the voltage down to 9 volts or less. I have such an converter that allows me to plug my DPA's with 1/8 plug into the phantom power of the 661 and steps the voltage down to about 9 volts.

Thanks, I don't know a whole lot about the capsule voltage, or what alternative "after market" options are available and how they work.

The set of 4061s I borrowed were setup to be used one of two ways:

1. Microdot connector to MMA6000 mini preamp, found here: http://www.dpamicrophones.com/en/products.aspx?c=Item&category=139&item=24255

2. Microdot to DAD6001-BC XLR adapter, found here: http://www.dpamicrophones.com/en/products.aspx?c=Item&category=138&item=24118

I chose to run the XLRs since I have the 661, and my buddy usually runs them that way into his 744T, but also will run the MMA6000 into a R09HR when super stealthy is required.

Also, there are other preamps and a huge collection of adapters for just about every make and model of wireless microphone transmitters: 

http://www.dpamicrophones.com/en/Microphone-University/adapters.aspx

http://www.dpamicrophones.com/en/products.aspx?c=Catalog&category=139


Hope this helps......

[jb63]

I have such an converter that allows me to plug my DPA's with 1/8 plug into the phantom power of the 661 and steps the voltage down to about 9 volts.

Could you show me a picture of that?
I'm going to want one of those!
Also, the question I really want to know is: does the phantom power provided by the 661 go straight up the line to the mics to successfully power them? You've seen the HEBs, they have an extra powering wire that leads to the battery box.

Could one simply unplug Len's battery and use the mic in & phantom from the 661 without frying the mics?

That is to say, is it possible to actually USE a set of Core Sound HEB's with the 661 in this way without modifying them?

...except for the converter you mentioned above?
Or does using these mics with this machine mean additional mods?

Thanks again, you guys!

[fmaderjr]

I have such an converter that allows me to plug my DPA's with 1/8 plug into the phantom power of the 661 and steps the voltage down to about 9 volts.

Could you show me a picture of that?

It's like this one from Naiant (scroll down to the $59 phantom power adapter).
http://www.naiant.com/naiant/inlinedevices.html
Other companies make them too. I got mine from Sound professionals and it works great but if I had to get one now, I'd might go for the Naiant. Love the quality of Jon's products.

That is to say, is it possible to actually USE a set of Core Sound HEB's with the 661 in this way without modifying them?

...except for the converter you mentioned above?
Or does using these mics with this machine mean additional mods?

No mods. You can use any mini-mics than run on 9 volts with the 661 (or any other recorder or preamp with phantom power) by plugging a phantom power adapter between the phantom power XLR's and the mics.