Topic: Zoom H1 for around $100, or....?

[marsev]

thanks...thanks...thanks...
each answer i get leads to 15 more questions....

i still welcome ideas/opinions, but wow! brain overload!
as you all know, this stuff is endlessly nuanced.

i'll either use my ecm717, or:
i'm getting some CA-11's with the tiny CA 9V battery power.
that's as fancy as my mic power will be.

i'm fine using my minidisc with this, but I hate changing discs at 79 minutes.

it could be that with this simple mic setup, it won't matter what I use..?
I know minidisc is technically lossy, but is a better recorder going to change the sound/range?

ugh. i envy you all. i'm so far behind on technology!

[earmonger]

Recovering minidisc user here...the Sony PCM-M10 is what you want, what you need, what you will enjoy, what you will love. Its built-in mics are good and with your external mics you will be thrilled. Just think of it as a minidisc unit you can record to 320kbps MP3 or .wav, upload without any encryption and run for 30-40 hours on one set of batteries. With a fairly familiar interface--track button, etc.--and a better display.  Just get the Sony. They finally got it right.

[BitRater]

I am looking to update my simple recoring gear.
I'm not deep into this hobby, just casual. Sort of...

I've had a Sony Minidisc (MZ-R50) for ages.

The Zoom H1 is about $100. Couldn't be worse than my minidisc, could it?
is there a vastly superior recorder for the same price?

My mic is a small Sony ECM 717.

any info is appreciated.

Well, I started out in the recording hobby with a Zoom H2. It was OK audio-wise, but build quality was such that it felt more like a cheap toy than a semi-serious tool. Noisy preamps for the external mic in circuit, too. And while I've never owned a Zoom H1, I suspect its build quality will be similar.

Then I got myself a Marantz PMD620 and really liked it, but had to sell it because I needed the money (and am still regretting having sold it). It had really quiet external mic preamps for a small handheld recorder, and despite having a fair bit of plastic in its construction, actually felt more like a professional tool.

After I sold the PMD620, I got a TASCAM DR-07, which works really well. My only complaints with the recorder are that the battery life is a little short, and the body is made out of a fairly cheap, smooth plastic that generates a lot of handling noise that can be heard if you're using the internal mics.  In other words, build quality is just OK, but somewhat less junky-feeling than the Zoom H2. Sound-wise, the DR-07 is superior to the Zoom, and a notch below the Marantz. The controls on the DR-07 are also much easier to operate than the ones on the Zoom H2.

Any one of these recorders would work well with your ECM-717, but be aware that the external mic preamps on the TASCAM DR-07 seem to work better with mics that have a good strong signal (i.e. are a little bit 'hot').  If you go with the DR-07 you may want to consider getting a mic preamp to boost the signal level on your ECM 717.

Finally, while the DR-07 has been discontinued, it's still available in a number of places for around $150 - 170.00.  I got mine last year from an online retailer for $129.00. If you can't get a DR-07, get the DR-07 Mark II. It's supposedly better than the original, and sells for about $150.00. Amazon has an affiliate selling them for $99.00 (and I have no connection, financial or otherwise, with TASCAM or Amazon).

I realize that price range is beyond your intended budget, but if you can stretch another fifty bucks or so, it will be money well spent.

[marsev]

thanks all.

i now have CA-11's plus the tiny CA B2 Battery Box.
(on loan).

would the m10 negate the need for a battery box? i like to travel light!

are pre-amps necessary for any of these recorders?
i'm green, but from what i gather, pre-amps aren't necessary, they just enhance sound,
or are only necessary for bigger mics...?
 
i'm not sure what "Noisy preamps for the external mic" means

as it turns out, i may "buy" an M10 for a month and return it "like new".....
or maybe keep it and not eat for a month

[BitRater]

thanks all.

i now have CA-11's plus the tiny CA B2 Battery Box.
(on loan).

would the m10 negate the need for a battery box? i like to travel light!

It depends. A battery box is designed to supply power to certain kinds of
microphones, chiefly mics that use XLR connectors and need something called
phantom power.

The PCM-M10, being powered by two 'AA' size batteries, does not
have sufficient power of its own to provide such microphones with the voltage they
need to function correctly. If you stick with electret condenser mics using a 1/8" (3.5mm)
mini-plug connection, you won't need a battery box. And since you're just getting your feet wet in
the recording hobby, I wouldn't worry about getting one anytime soon. Focus on
making good recordings with the mic you have and a decent recorder like the DR-07 I
recommended, or the Sony PCM-M10.

are pre-amps necessary for any of these recorders?
i'm green, but from what i gather, pre-amps aren't necessary, they just enhance sound,
or are only necessary for bigger mics...?

Pre-amps do not enhance sound. For recording applications, they boost the signal of a mic so that it provides sufficient signal, or strength for a recorder to
work with. Mic signal levels that are too low will cause noise in the sound you hear in your recordings and will also make the sound harder to hear.
 

i'm not sure what "Noisy preamps for the external mic" means

Recorders like the PCM-M10, etc., have internal mic preamps of their own that are directly connected to the mic-in jack of the recorder. The problem is that
they are not designed to compensate for mics that output weak signals, only to boost whatever signal level is there to a voltage that the recorder's processing
circuitry needs in order to work properly. External preamps are designed to get around this issue.

In some cases, the internal preamps found in some small handheld recorders are inherently noisy. This is often due to
manufacturers choosing to go with cheaper circuitry in order to either increase their profit margin, or to permit their
recorders to be sold at a specific price, said price usually being decided on by the manufacturer's marketing department.
The end result is noisy recordings - where the noise sounds like a hissing sound.

as it turns out, i may "buy" an M10 for a month and return it "like new".....
or maybe keep it and not eat for a month

The PCM-M10 is so highly rated, it's probably likely you'll like it a lot and decide to keep it.
And since the M10 typically sells for about $220US, you'll only be spending about a hundred
or so more than you were planning to spend! So it doesn't sound to me like you won't be eating
for a month!

[earmonger]

Slow down, wait a minute.

Let's not confuse a battery box with phantom power, which is pretty hefty, 45V or so.

Mics plugged directly into the Sony mic jack (and most others) get a little bit of power called plug-in (not phantom) power (and are preamplified by the built-in preamp).  I forget how much plug-in power the PCM-M10 provides--it's less than 5V.  That's  enough to power the CA-11.

But if you are recording loud music, like most concerts, you want to give the mics a little bit more power so they can handle higher sound pressure. Hence the battery box--9V or 12V--and going into Line-in, which doesn't have a preamp and thus needs a stronger signal. You can POSSIBLY get away without the battery box and go into mic-in with the Sony, but if you are at a loud show, you run the risk of distortion either coming direcly from an overloaded (underpowered) microphone or an overloaded built-in preamp.

Executive summary: CA-11---->Battery Box--->Line-in.  Manual levels (switch on back), and I'd guesstimate you put the volume knob at about 3--but look at the meters and adjust accordingly.

Even with the battery box, you're traveling light. Get a little camera case, like the Lowepro Ridge30, which has a little pouch that holds the battery box and an outer flap with a zipper slot in it that perfectly holds the flat PCM-M10 remote.

By the way, the ECM-717 has low sensitivity, useful for recording loud concerts, but not much bass response. The CA-11 is going to blow it away. 

[marsev]

thanks again BitRater and earmonger. very helpful info!

this thread has been a refresher. all these terms and model types,
it can get confusing if you aren't knee-deep in it already.
i'm about clear as mud!....

i have recorded with the CA-11's once (plus BB), and though the recording was better,
i didn't enjoy all the extra wire and wondering if the 9V disconnected in my pocket!

yes, my ecm717 - love it to death. so small, simple. no extra power needed.
using that + minidisc, it's like zero effort to record a show.
But the sound sucks if i'm not in a tight room, right in front of speakers!
 
so, i will update my recorder and use the BB.
much respect to you folks who lug around preamps, etc.

i like all kind of audience recordings...DFC SBD area on mic stands....but i particularly like
raw up-front recordings with major sound-pressure levels. you can only get that going up close,
carrying everything on you.

[earmonger]

You could try the CA-11 straight into mic-in, without the battery box. There's enough power.

I just don't know if your concerts are going to be loud enough to overload the mic or the preamp--you'd have to do the experiment. (Or simulate the concert with your stereo cranked way up.) Anyway, go into MENU/Detail Menu on the PCM-M10 and turn on the Limiter, which will lower the input volume if you start to overload, and could save you. 

[cybergaloot]

You could try the CA-11 straight into mic-in, without the battery box. There's enough power.

I'm pretty sure Chris Church recommends 9v for his mics, not the 3v plug in power. Get one of his battery boxes or preamps. I'd recommend the CA-14 mics over the CA-11s. One thing in favor of the CA-11s is that you can buy the caps so you can go omni or card depending on your need but from what I've read, cards are the way to go for you most of the time.

BTW, many people are using the H1 as a replacement for the mics on their video cameras by using an adapter for the hot shoe. Considering the sound I hear from most videos on YouTube, this has to be a great improvement! Not as good as the Rode mic/preamp designed for video cameras though.

[marsev]

i should of said at the beginning, this was all in preparation for some June concerts.

i still haven't bought a recorder. but still have time.
i have CA-11's & the small CA 9v battery box.

here's the question, sorry if it's redundant or answered x1000 elsewhere..

how does a better recorder improve the sound over a minidisc?
i know that minidisc is lossy. but it's not something my ears perceive.

will i get the same sound with CA-11>minidisc vs. CA-11>M10?


 

[F.O.Bean]

I, too, recommend getting a Sony PCM-M10. You can record in 24-bit and run your levels a bit more conservative, and boost them w/ audio editing software[Audacity is freeware]. That way you could pretty much just set your levels low and not have to check them the whole show. And keep using the 9v BB, or your mics risk overloading at high SPL's I just bought a pair of CA-14 Cards and a 9v Sound Professionals Battery Box to run into my M10, when I need to go *stealthy*

[TimeBandit]

how does a better recorder improve the sound over a minidisc?
i know that minidisc is lossy. but it's not something my ears perceive.

will i get the same sound with CA-11>minidisc vs. CA-11>M10?

It depends how the internals in the units are, maybe some HiFish Cthulhu Voodoo Priest can say via listening on a same Demo File "this was recorded with the Sony and this with a Tascam". It might be and is really noticeable in very old or special equipment like Tube Preamped mics or pre stages or like that. Stuff like such equipment has it´s own footprint. But on digital recorders it is less important factor, especially you run the recorder at unity gain (= means the signal runs straight to the memory card, no amping / touch via internal stages) and do the gain on the Preamp which is powering the mics. So the mics and Preamp are the factor about adding their note on the recording, not the recorder.

The Big Deal with the SD Card Recorder is you can record in 24 Bit / 48 kHZ, so a bit more room for later improvements - maybe more gain oder EQing out bad frequencies. An 24 Bit / 48 kHZ recording has more information - better resolution, so an Plugin at Postpro can work better this this Plus of Information.

It´s a bit like digital photography. an 12 MP picture taken out of my DSLR has more information than switched down to 2 MP, And the RAW file out of cam is like a 24 Bit recording, JPEG like MP3 ...

[F.O.Bean]

how does a better recorder improve the sound over a minidisc?
i know that minidisc is lossy. but it's not something my ears perceive.

will i get the same sound with CA-11>minidisc vs. CA-11>M10?

It depends how the internals in the units are, maybe some HiFish Cthulhu Voodoo Priest can say via listening on a same Demo File "this was recorded with the Sony and this with a Tascam". It might be and is really noticeable in very old or special equipment like Tube Preamped mics or pre stages or like that. Stuff like such equipment has it´s own footprint. But on digital recorders it is less important factor, especially you run the recorder at unity gain (= means the signal runs straight to the memory card, no amping / touch via internal stages) and do the gain on the Preamp which is powering the mics. So the mics and Preamp are the factor about adding their note on the recording, not the recorder.

The Big Deal with the SD Card Recorder is you can record in 24 Bit / 48 kHZ, so a bit more room for later improvements - maybe more gain oder EQing out bad frequencies. An 24 Bit / 48 kHZ recording has more information - better resolution, so an Plugin at Postpro can work better this this Plus of Information.

It´s a bit like digital photography. an 12 MP picture taken out of my DSLR has more information than switched down to 2 MP, And the RAW file out of cam is like a 24 Bit recording, JPEG like MP3 ...

well said

[earmonger]

Minidisc recording at SP was 292 kbps, kilobits per second. That's how much musical information is recorded per second. SP was a very good compression algorithm, with a very musical sound, but it simply did not capture as much information as the best mp3 setting on the PCM-M10 (320 kbps) or the even better .wav choices.

Yes, minidisc sounded good, and your ears got used to filling in the information that was compressed out of the actual recording. But if you record with your same ECM717 mic you will get more detail with more kbps. If you record with better mics, like the CA-11, you will get a better input (the signal from the mics) as well as  a more detailed recording.

Compression really does matter. I routinely recorded concerts at LP2 (132 kbps) with my old minidisc (you didn't have that on the R50)  so I didn't have to change discs. And then when I switched to Hi-SP (256 kbps) with Hi-MD I realized how squashed the LP2 recordings were. Do you own test, maybe on an opening act you don't care about. Take both the MZ-R50 and the PCM-M10 to a show, record part of the same song with the same mics in each one  (at SP and 320 kbps .mp3 or 24/48 .wav) and compare. Compensate for the difference in volume when you play back. I'm pretty sure you will hear a difference.

[marsev]

alright, i ordered the M10!

it will arrive next week, with barely a day to spare before i go on a road trip and record some shows!

I am well aware of ALL the info here...

but can someone please re-cap an idiot-proof simple guide
for how to use this thing once I get it...i won't have time to experiment.

any advice is appreciated...

I will be recording rock shows. Amplified acoustic. Not heavy on bass.
It's Bill Callahan (Smog), if you are familiar...not balls-out rock music.

I will have M10 > CA-11's with CA 9v battery box.

So I go Line in (not mic in)?
Use limiter?
Low sensitivity?
rec level knob - where to set it?
I don't want to be monitoring levels, etc.

with four 90-minute shows, how much space will I need?
will that exceed the internal space?

(i also ordered some extra cards)

I'm not familiar with 16/24 bit options.
I'm gonna want these shows on CDR.
What settings do I use?

------

Previously, I have recorded with minidisc Sony R50 > Sony ECM 717.
I had my settings at high mic sens, limiter off.
i've had the buttons taped in place for years....

it was plug in and record, no thinking or effort involved.
(but lower quality recorings of course)