Topic: KORG PROMO: TALK TO KORG

[aegert]

Hey
Please feel free to use this forum to ask any and all questions about teh Korg offer or Korg Products for recording in this thread.

The MR-2 Promotional 30% off thread is located here:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=153691.0

The marketing product managers will be checking in here to communicate and answer your questions.

The MR2 is a great product that will give you great pulls and enable you to go from 1bit to 24 or 16 with ease. It will also facilitate 1 bit dsd discs playable in some players and systems which enables production of your recordings so you can here them as never before!

I hope this becomes a great partnership for Korg and TS!

aegert (adam)

[drchen]

Thank you to aegert(Adam) for connecting TS'ers directly to KORG. What a concept!

I'm considering the purchase of an MR2, especially now that you offering TSers a special deal.
I wanted an MR1000 but didn't act fast enough before they were no longer available new.

I'd like to better understand aegert's comment:
"It will also facilitate SACD production of your recordings so you can here them as never before!"

Can one produce an SACD disc with recordings made from an MR2? If so, what is involved? Special software to "master" an SACD?  Hardware?  If this topic is discussed in another thread, please forgive me.

A related question is: What are my options to listen back to my DSD recordings made using the MR2?
 
I think one option is to convert it to PCM using your Audiogate Software and either burn to CD(less desireable due 16 bit--a decrease in audio quality) or computer playback in Hi-Rez PCM (24/96 or 24/192) via a USB DAC. But in the conversion process from DSD to PCM,  I'm fairly certain that some data(and sound quality) is lost.
 
The other option that I can think of is to play it back with the file still in the MR2 deck via the headphone out jack. But the DAC and headphone amp in the MR2 are not audiophile quality, IMHO.

Are there any other options for playback of a DSD?  Is there a USB DAC (or something equivalent) that can handle DSD files? (Under $5k) 

Thanks again to KORG and Adam.

[aegert]

There is an accompanying SW Called Audio Gate here is info on it and Download it:

http://www.korguser.net/audiogate/en/download.html


They are up to version 2. Its this sw that can burn DSD discs. My understanding it will author SACD(edit incorrect DSD discs not SACD):

http://www.korguser.net/audiogate/en/about.html

Read this and see about the 1-bit dsd discs playable on your SACD player:

Quote:

* DSD discs (1-bit; 2.8 MHz) created by AudioGate can be played back on players such as the Sony SCD-XA5400ES Super Audio CD/CD player, the Sony SCD-XE800 Super Audio CD/CD player or PlayStation®3 from Sony Computer Entertainment Inc. DSD discs to be played on the Sony SCD-XA5400ES or the Sony SCD-XE800 require the following conditions. AudioGate meets these conditions. (As of August 21st, 2010, confirmed by KORG Inc.)

- Disc: DVD-R, DVD-RW, DVD+R, and DVD-RW, that are compatible with DVD-ROM specifications
- File extension: dsf
- Folder type: DSD_DISC folder
- Maximum size of a file: up to 4GB
- Channel: 2-channel
- Maximum number of playable files: up to 150 files per folder
- Maximum number of playable folders: up to 200 folders per disc
- Maximum number of playable layers: up to 8th layer
- Sampling frequency: 2.8224 MHz
* The availability of these products may vary by country.
* PlayStation is a registered trademark of Sony Computer Entertainment Inc.
　 Japan: http://www.jp.playstation.com/
　 US: http://www.us.playstation.com/
　 Europe: http://uk.playstation.com/country-selector/
　 Please check following URL for other countries.
　 http://www.playstation.com/country-selector/
* "DSD Disc Format" is a trademark of Sony Corporation.

A

[zowie]

I don't see any indication that it will author SACD.

There were some new $299 MR-2's on ebay last week.  I took a long look, but what kept me from pulling the trigger, for the time being, was lack of clarity about what one can do to have optimal quality playback in a more ubiquitous format than "DSD discs."

So Korg folks, my question is, what can a prosumer recordist or home audiophile do with DSD files other than play them off a computer, a few Sony's, or convert them into a format such as PCM that we could have recorded in natively?

(Not hating on the format.  Far from it -- a good answer, now or in a future evolution, will be a sale.)

[rjp]

Last time I checked, only pressing plants can make true SACD discs that will play in any SACD player; SACD is as much (if not more) about copy protection and control of distribution (read: locking out the little guy) as it is about audio quality. The players Adam mentioned are playing data discs with DSD files. Seeing as how Sony has a track record of removing functionality from the PS3 with firmware updates, I'm not sure it's worth the effort; there's no guarantee that a PS3 will continue to support DSD data discs, and no recourse for you if it quits doing so after you load your latest game.

You could submit your DSD masters to a pressing plant to make real SACDs, but I'm sure that would cost a small fortune.

[H₂O]

It won't author SACD only DSD Discs (specially formatted DVD-R's).

To do SACD you would need a SACD burner or pressing machine as it is a physically different format then anything in the consumer realm.

You can get a plugin for foobar 2000 as well that converts the DSD stream (as the PS3 does to 24bit 176.4Khz) to the highest format your PC's sound card - So a PS3 is not required.

But the recordings I have made with the MR-1 in DSD IMO are phenomenal and on par with the SD7xx if not slightly better (with the SD running 24 96Khz).

[zowie]

But the recordings I have made with the MR-1 in DSD IMO are phenomenal and on par with the SD7xx if not slightly better (with the SD running 24 96Khz).

Phenomenal when played back how?  As an SACD user I don't doubt that the DSD master sounds great, but what about converted to 24/96 so it can be played in the real world?

[jb63]

I often convert my DSDIFF files to 256kbps MP3s and they still sound great.
Most commonly, they are played 16/44.1 because that's the 'real' world.

I'm not sure what the real question here is, though?

How to burn an SACD or DSD disc?
I realize that I'll sound stupid here, but the Audiogate software is all you need to play a 2-channel recording.
Its not my favorite editing software, for that I mostly use Sound Studio, but with audiogate you can dither down to 24/96 and edit to your hearts content.

What would you use to burn a 24/96 disc?
I cannot really hear the difference between that and the original DSDIFF files I've made, but that's me.

My MR2 arrived today.
$367.50.
I'm not as excited as when I got my 3rd MR1, but I'm excited. In the end of the MR1 era, it became the "buy a replacement because you can't buy a new battery."

I will do some tests and take some pictures soon.
Its the smallest box footprint yet, and for that, me and my tiny workspace sure are happy!

[H₂O]

But the recordings I have made with the MR-1 in DSD IMO are phenomenal and on par with the SD7xx if not slightly better (with the SD running 24 96Khz).

Phenomenal when played back how?  As an SACD user I don't doubt that the DSD master sounds great, but what about converted to 24/96 so it can be played in the real world?

I played them back from the MR-1 and/or Audiogate > Denon AVR-3808

The SD files where played back through Computer > Denon AVR-3808

[aegert]

Sorry for my misspeaks regarding SACD. I have corrected my comments. In the end the recordings are better than on my sd722. The dissemination in audio gate is phenomenal. the one bit files have mor information and are more like analog recordings without the draw backs. Time will tell but I for one am glad my recordings are archived in dff high resolution. In time consumer editing SW should be more readily available. At that point I can produce better standard output. Until then playback from audio gate or my edited 24/96's are better than anything I pull using my 722.

Don't get me wrong I love my 722 and the I/O options but for a bit bucket, size and recoding technology there is not much better than the KORG...

The product manger should be checking in here soon so you will have a direct line to the factory... That for us as users is fantastic... I hope that this all works out well as I know there intensions are very good... We are lucky as users :-)

[RichF]

So Korg folks, my question is, what can a prosumer recordist or home audiophile do with DSD files other than play them off a computer, a few Sony's, or convert them into a format such as PCM that we could have recorded in natively?

Hi Zowie,

This is definitely a good question. As aegert pointed out, DSD discs that AudioGate can author can be played back on Playstations and a few SACD players, but if you're playing back from a computer, you'll always be limited by the weak link in the chain- the computer's audio interface. That being said, our proprietary algorithms do an excellent job (if we do say so ourselves) of dithering DSD audio to multi-bit PCM. As a test, I'd recommend recording the same source material in DSD and in PCM, then using AudioGate to dither the DSD file down to the same resolution you used to record the PCM. An A/B comparison there will hopefully be very telling.

Archiving is another big advantage of DSD. Theoretically, if tomorrow's format of the week is 56-bit 384kHz, you could take your DSD master file and convert down to that spec. It's essentially the same idea as archiving a 2-track tape for later remastering.

Hope this helps,
-Rich

[Colin Liston]

I have recorded a few shows this way. 

mics > V3 > digital out to  bit bucket
               > analog out to MR1

 One was Dickie Betts and another was Nickel Creek, and a few others I can't recall at the moment.  I'd be more than happy to send the files to anyone.

[zowie]

Thank you.
I appreciate the reply.

Hi Zowie,

This is definitely a good question. As aegert pointed out, DSD discs that AudioGate can author can be played back on Playstations and a few SACD players, but if you're playing back from a computer, you'll always be limited by the weak link in the chain- the computer's audio interface. That being said, our proprietary algorithms do an excellent job (if we do say so ourselves) of dithering DSD audio to multi-bit PCM. As a test, I'd recommend recording the same source material in DSD and in PCM, then using AudioGate to dither the DSD file down to the same resolution you used to record the PCM. An A/B comparison there will hopefully be very telling.

Archiving is another big advantage of DSD. Theoretically, if tomorrow's format of the week is 56-bit 384kHz, you could take your DSD master file and convert down to that spec. It's essentially the same idea as archiving a 2-track tape for later remastering.

Hope this helps,
-Rich

[dream]

Theoretically, if tomorrow's format of the week is 56-bit 384kHz, you could take your DSD master file and convert down to that spec. It's essentially the same idea as archiving a 2-track tape for later remastering.
[/quote]

I could do the same with an 8 bit 16kHz PCM file.

[Brian Skalinder]

Theoretically, if tomorrow's format of the week is 56-bit 384kHz, you could take your DSD master file and convert down to that spec. It's essentially the same idea as archiving a 2-track tape for later remastering.

I could do the same with an 8 bit 16kHz PCM file.

No, you couldn't -- you'd have to convert UP to the new spec, both bit-depth and sample rate, from a limited quality master.  And the limited quality master would, well, limit the value of converting up to the new spec.  For example, regardless of the format to which you up-convert, from an 8-bit / 16 kHz PCM master you'd never have more than ~48 dB of dynamic range, or higher than ~8 kHz frequency response.

That said, given my understanding of real-world analog components maxing out at ~21-bits of dynamic range, and human ears not hearing much above 20 kHz (if at all), I'm not sure what good it would do to be able to down-convert from DSD to something higher than 24-bit / 48 kHz (or 96 kHz, assuming this provides better anti-alias filtering).

However, I imagine having the raw DSD file could provide for audible improvements in the down-converted target bit-depth and sample rate due to advances in the process of converting from DSD to PCM.  Likewise, I imagine it's possible to perform higher quality editing in the DSD rather than PCM realm, but it's beyond my very limited knowledge of the formats, software editing algorithms, etc. to even guess at whether or not it might deliver audible improvements.