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Author Topic: shotgun mics usage  (Read 7140 times)

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Offline EmRR

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Re: shotgun mics usage
« Reply #30 on: September 13, 2021, 06:01:08 PM »
I made multitrack recordings and a live broadcast mix at an outdoor show yesterday, and tried a pair of KMR81's on the stage pointing out at the crowd, apparently a pretty common approach but one I'd never tried.  I'd call the result instantly recognizable, and funny too what specific bits of conversations they pull out of the crowd in between songs.   Jury out on this until I listen more. 

I also had a dual mid-side pair out at front of house going to a portable recorder, haven't integrated those yet. 
Mics: DPA 4060 w/MPS 6030 PSU/DAD6001/DAD4099, Neumann KM 131, KMR 81i, Oktava MK 012, Sennheiser MKH 105, MKH 20, MKH 30, MKH 40, MKH 800 TWIN, lots of other studio appropriate choices
Recorders: Zoom F8n, Sony MZ-R50, portable MOTU based multitrack DAW for client work

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: shotgun mics usage
« Reply #31 on: September 13, 2021, 08:54:35 PM »
Were they wide spaced like I've commonly seen them used for that?  If so did you perceive any hole in the middle of the audience stuff in the mix with them hard panned, or soft-panned to make it less extreme?  I ask because I love wide spaced omni audience and ambience, yet I find I sometimes find I want to softpan my near-spaced rear-facing supercards that are picking up more precise rear arriving cues to achieve more of a smooth fill across the whole soundstage.

The thing I've always wondered about interference tube mics onstage facing out at the audience is the sound contribution of the stuff they are attempting to reject - the loud stuff on stage to the sides and behind, and PA above or to the sides.  How much does off-axis misbehavior poison the well?  KMR81's are likely better than many other options in that regard, yet still no champ  in terms of off-axis smoothness.
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Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline EmRR

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Re: shotgun mics usage
« Reply #32 on: September 14, 2021, 08:25:17 AM »
They were wide as possible, there were stone pillars supporting a roof, and I had the pillars between the mics and the mains which were outside of the roof on the ground.

When I solo’d the kmr81’s they were reasonably smooth. I had the hpf on and another sweepable hpf in the console to knock down the huge woofy bass you’d expect from being near and slightly behind the mains. Stage volume was not high.  They were hard panned in the mix. With the band playing, I only really got a slight sense of ambience added with them all the way up, no hole, but applause at endings was two hard panned pockets, no middle at all. 

It’ll be interesting to hear how they integrate with the FOH DMS capture when I get that imported.  Being outside with a total lack of room reflections I expect they’ll all live relatively low in the mix.  We’re usually in a very reverberant small theater with a rear of room center NOS-ish pair and an opposing sidewall boundary pair and those live pretty low. The outdoor probably will run higher in comparison. 

In this kind of multitrack / live mix scenario my biggest personal ? is how close did I get in the live mix. The goal is to try and minimize the need for post-production for the producer, and this one was extremely difficult to hear clearly in the moment. I was as far behind the structure as possible but the bass bleed was still enough that I couldn’t really tell where kick drum and bass were in the mix.


Here’s the usual show location, we don’t often have drums there:

https://youtu.be/yrIryQ0FH0s?t=5323

and the one in question:

« Last Edit: September 14, 2021, 09:42:49 PM by EmRR »
Mics: DPA 4060 w/MPS 6030 PSU/DAD6001/DAD4099, Neumann KM 131, KMR 81i, Oktava MK 012, Sennheiser MKH 105, MKH 20, MKH 30, MKH 40, MKH 800 TWIN, lots of other studio appropriate choices
Recorders: Zoom F8n, Sony MZ-R50, portable MOTU based multitrack DAW for client work

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: shotgun mics usage
« Reply #33 on: September 14, 2021, 10:00:43 AM »
^Nice looking venue.  Kudos to you on getting the live mix dialed in to the extent you could, that's a tough cookie.  I've struggled getting a decent live mix of my mics alone for patching out to other folks, and even at a multi-day things where I've had the ability to dial in a decent rough mix after the conclusion of the first day for patching out on following days, when listening to that rough-guess mix later its almost never really where I'd really like it to be.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline opsopcopolis

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Re: shotgun mics usage
« Reply #34 on: September 14, 2021, 11:08:50 AM »
Ive always thought super wide shotguns were an interesting choice for ambiance. I think I generally prefer a less directional sound for my ambient mics in a live multi. Iirc Pearl Jam uses in the neighborhood of 8-10 shotguns on stage and at FOH to get their ambient signal and I think it generally sounds pretty good (tough to capture that arena energy without tons of bleed)
Mics: Berliner CM-33, CA-14 card, CA-11 card & omni, AT-853, Sony ECM-907
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Offline EmRR

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Re: shotgun mics usage
« Reply #35 on: September 14, 2021, 01:01:17 PM »
It won't be my first, second, or third choice as only option!  Glad I got a chance to try it, and an outdoor show like this seemed the best place to experiment.  They'll be useful mixed with the dual mid-side at FOH. 

I can imagine having a half dozen or more would start to make a lot more sense if trying to build an artificial 'telephoto' hyperrealistic up close crowd ambience. 

That stage is in a county park, and this was a local arts council event.  I'd guess we had 2-300 on the hillside, kinda hard to tell.  No idea what it's normally like. 

I usually get an input list several days in advance and am involved in planning the console layouts and mic selections, so I'm able to preset the  broadcast mix console in advance, best guesses on channel EQ, dynamics, etc.  That helps a lot.   About 50% of the inputs are regular house band so they are predictable. 

I have a Wohler broadcast speaker panel which is more ' old car radio / laptop' response range that lives at a preset volume, and a set of full range speakers on a fader so I can change the perspective pretty quickly.  Most gets done on headphones though due to high environmental noise and stage bleed. 
« Last Edit: September 15, 2021, 09:12:12 AM by EmRR »
Mics: DPA 4060 w/MPS 6030 PSU/DAD6001/DAD4099, Neumann KM 131, KMR 81i, Oktava MK 012, Sennheiser MKH 105, MKH 20, MKH 30, MKH 40, MKH 800 TWIN, lots of other studio appropriate choices
Recorders: Zoom F8n, Sony MZ-R50, portable MOTU based multitrack DAW for client work

Offline EmRR

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Re: shotgun mics usage
« Reply #36 on: September 16, 2021, 09:39:56 PM »
The shotguns are indeed useful mixed with the MS from FOH. The binaural effect of wide spacing and hard panning does make for an enveloping ambience.  Still can’t say I’m sold on it though, just glad to have finally tried it.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2021, 02:29:32 PM by EmRR »
Mics: DPA 4060 w/MPS 6030 PSU/DAD6001/DAD4099, Neumann KM 131, KMR 81i, Oktava MK 012, Sennheiser MKH 105, MKH 20, MKH 30, MKH 40, MKH 800 TWIN, lots of other studio appropriate choices
Recorders: Zoom F8n, Sony MZ-R50, portable MOTU based multitrack DAW for client work

Offline DavidPuddy

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Re: shotgun mics usage
« Reply #37 on: September 17, 2021, 02:21:45 PM »
If it's an easy venue, I'll run my AKG 568 shotguns alongside hypers just to get a different flavor. Sometimes the shotguns sound better than the hypers.

Examples:

North Mississippi Allstars Live at Terminal West on 2020-01-25
https://archive.org/details/nma2020-01-25.davidpuddy.akg568

Jimmy Herring and The 5 of 7 Live at Variety Playhouse on 2019-11-20
https://archive.org/details/jhiw2019-11-20.DavidPuddy

Billy Strings Live at Cat's Cradle on 2019-11-01
https://archive.org/details/billystrings2019-11-01.akg568

They're not right for all situations, but the results are very usable.
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Offline CorFit Chris

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Re: shotgun mics usage
« Reply #38 on: December 02, 2021, 10:57:56 AM »
If it's an easy venue, I'll run my AKG 568 shotguns alongside hypers just to get a different flavor. Sometimes the shotguns sound better than the hypers.

Examples:

North Mississippi Allstars Live at Terminal West on 2020-01-25
https://archive.org/details/nma2020-01-25.davidpuddy.akg568

Jimmy Herring and The 5 of 7 Live at Variety Playhouse on 2019-11-20
https://archive.org/details/jhiw2019-11-20.DavidPuddy

Billy Strings Live at Cat's Cradle on 2019-11-01
https://archive.org/details/billystrings2019-11-01.akg568

They're not right for all situations, but the results are very usable.

This is what I have started doing as well, especially in "boomy" rooms.  Really like the results.  The 568's have pretty full sound for a shotgun.  Mix with ck63's DinA or PAS.  Also noticeable reduction of crowd chatter.
LMA: https://archive.org/details/@corfit
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Mics: Neumann TLM 102 | AKG ck61 & ck63 (nBob actives, Naiant PFA) | CA-14 omni | Studio Projects B3 | AT 897
Recorders: Sound Devices MixPre-6 | Sound Devices MixPre-10ii | Zoom H6 
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