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Author Topic: Cool modular mic bar system...  (Read 9029 times)

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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Cool modular mic bar system...
« Reply #30 on: May 21, 2021, 08:30:09 AM »
^Nice.

I like 4 channel combined setups with M/S in the middle and have had good luck with it in a couple arrangements you might try with that bar:
1) Between wider-spaced omnis.. on that bar you might try pointing the KM83s 180 degrees apart, directly out toward either side.  That arrangement uses the mic-bodies to extend spacing between capsules as much as possible.  It also uses the  directional nature of the omnis at high frequencies to advantage in combination with the forward-pointing Mid.
2) Substitute cardioids or supercards in place of the omnis, angled +/-45 degrees.  This works well with the spacing available on that bar.  It can be helpful to shift the M/S pair forward of the near-spaced directional pair somewhat, which you may be able to achieve by using the upper and lower hinge points on the suspension mounts, angling the suspension something like 45 degrees forward for the center pair and 45 degrees rearward for the near-spaced pair.  You may be able to use that same angled suspension technique to extend the omni spacing by a few more inches as well, with the omni suspensions angled outwards instead of backward.

The rationale behind this- If you simply wish to compare the two stereo pairs each on their own and choose between one or the other, space and point the omnis as you prefer.  If you want to optimally combine the two pairs, increase the spacing between omnis to about double what you would preferably use without mixing with the center pair. If that's not possible, increase spacing as much as possible and point the mics outward to leverage their HF directionalty.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline hagstrom71

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Re: Cool modular mic bar system...
« Reply #31 on: May 21, 2021, 11:55:37 AM »
Thanks for the tips Gutbucket.

I plan on getting another pair of rods to extend the length if needed, but like the the idea of positioning the omni's at 180 degrees apart as asll as moving the M/S pair forward.
For the moment I'm just using whichever pair sounds better, but if I can get them to mix together in a way that improves the sound I might as well take advantage of it.

Just seeing your link to OMT setups and gonna check them out.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Cool modular mic bar system...
« Reply #32 on: May 21, 2021, 12:43:50 PM »
I really need to update that OMT PDF.  I never went back to revise it after the initial posted version and have moved on somewhat in my thinking and setups since.  I recently printed it out and made a bunch of notes on revisions, clarifications and the reorganization of it, but still need to actually revise it.

The intent behind the PDF was to lay out the methodology behind the approach and a logical progression for moving from simple arrays to increasingly complex mutli-mic array setups by way of easy understand visual diagrams.

Here's a photo of my current setup from an outdoor patio show last weekend.  It's 8 channels in total (yeah ridiculous I know), but if you exclude the rear-facing near-spaced pair, it's essentially a combination of both of the arrangements I suggested above: M/S pair in the center, flanked by near-spaced +/-45degree supercards at about the same spacing as what you show, plus wide-spaced omnis in the balls out at the far ends.

[Edit- the stage is located off to the lower right with respect to the photo orientation]
« Last Edit: May 21, 2021, 05:26:32 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline hagstrom71

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Re: Cool modular mic bar system...
« Reply #33 on: May 21, 2021, 04:44:14 PM »
That's quite a setup, I'm impressed. Are those shure windscreens on all of them?
What are you recording with this kind of setup?

I'm usually recording small musical ensembles of 1-3 musicians/vocalists for video without any PA.
I can get away with lavaliers, but often I can't have mic stands in the shot.
Getting the best stereo capture and only using lavs for support if needed is usually preferable.

Where the musicians sit in the stereo field is also something I'm experimenting with.
With video they cut from wide shots to close-ups, so having certain elements all the way to one side can get weird when there is a closeup shot.
 

Offline audBall

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Re: Cool modular mic bar system...
« Reply #34 on: May 21, 2021, 05:12:46 PM »
This is a modular "telescoping" DIY stereo bar I've been tinkering with the past few months. It is comprised of 5cm metal segments with 1/4"-20 threaded ends that can be added or removed to create the desired width. I ordered a handful of them and butted them together with a 1/4"-20 dual-male adapter. The active mounts are made by followinbob.

edit - While the segments are fixed at 5cm, I have found this constraint to be minimized by the adjustable microphone angles (plug to The Stereophonic Zoom) at the ends with the (fb) mic mounts - which hold in place at the selected angle remarkably well.

/edit

Anything beyond 50cm I would recommend additional central support for my particular setup. I was very concerned about weight distribution at first, but this is surprisingly robust - I conducted numerous at-home tests for lengthy periods of time to generate personal comfort. The first image is the action shot (top set of cardioid mics, ~52cm split @ 20 degrees); the second image is a closeup of the general setup; and the third image is a closeup breakdown of parts. This is not a recommendation, rather it is another example of an evolving process to fit my needs.

Oh, and the wide stereo bar helped chase away a 4ft gopher snake safely and effectively, without making any contact, after taking home under our POD blanket during setup.

Recording of the show below:
https://archive.org/details/cats2021-05-07.mg20.flac24
 







« Last Edit: August 26, 2021, 10:15:34 PM by audBall »
mg m20.21 ■ akg ck61.62.63 ■ nbob ■ aerco mp2 ■ v2
dpa 4061 ■ mma-a
m10 ■ d100 ■ r44ocm

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Cool modular mic bar system...
« Reply #35 on: May 21, 2021, 06:36:48 PM »
My arrangement isn't substantial enough to support heavy mics, much less chase off big snakes! 

I also realize its less relevant than the other stuff in this thread for most folks including youself, but thanks for your interest.  I do like talking about it.  ::)

Yes, Sure A81WS dual-layer windscreens on the five supercards.  The center one also has the coincident fig-8 in there.  The supercards are all small and lightweight lav-sized DPAs, but require that amount of windscreening outdoors.  The omnis are DPA omni lavs, mounted in nerf-foam balls with thinner SM58 type foam windscreens on them.  The largest and heaviest mic up there is the SDC fig-8. 

The entire array retracts / folds up rather compactly for stowage and transport and remains pre-rigged and connected to the recorder which lives in a pocket on the storage bag. making it very quick to setup and breakdown.  I can mount it atop a stand, to a fordable foot at floor height, to a clamp on a table, chair, rafter or whatever.  Such pre-arranged simplicity makes a huge difference when the array grows this complex.  I wouldn't / couldn't do it otherwise. It's certainly grown more visually intrusive over the years as its become larger, but still isn't bad considering the channel count. 

Besides ease of setup, a couple big advantages as I see it are the flexibility it provides for accommodating different recording scenarios and welcome flexibility in crafting a stereo mix.  I record pretty much all kinds of music performance with it- PA amplified stuff in bigger venues from further back, small scale acoustic stuff from up close, instrumental jazz combos from the stage-lip. You can sort of see how the geometry of it reflects recording for surround playback, which was a big part of my working it up, but a very cool part for me was the discovery that arranging things to work really well for surround output actually provided even more advantages for 2-channel stereo output flexibility.  I actually haven't had a surround playback system setup for the last couple years, but retain that capability, both because I look forward to getting back to it at some point and because it works so well for crafting good stereo output.  It does place a burden on needing to spending the time to create an optimal mix, which is both blessing and curse. 

I hear you on the issue of mis-matched perspective between audio and video.  That can be a real challenge and annoying once you become critically aware of it.  Capturing a base-line stereo image that relies a bit more heavily on spacing rather than directional angling of microphones can help as the stereo qualities are then weighted more toward an open and diffuse stereo feel then toward about sharp, distinctive source location precision that may sometimes be in conflict with the visual image.  Then you can pan your close support lavs as needed to better match the audio and video imaging.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2021, 06:43:54 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Cool modular mic bar system...
« Reply #36 on: August 26, 2021, 05:53:58 PM »
Just posting to fully acknowledge how cool, well thought out, and well implemented Horus's setup is, pictured above.

+T
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline voltronic

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Re: Cool modular mic bar system...
« Reply #37 on: October 25, 2021, 07:47:34 PM »
I have been going through this thread again recently, and started researching 15mm rod-based setups based on if_then_else and hagstrom71's posts.

Here is a list of what I came up with.

Rod sets (all have M12 internal threading):
https://www.amazon.com/Fotasy-Support-Systems-Mattebox-Shoulder/dp/B00DUK1K3I
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07BDFVJ2D
https://www.amazon.com/SmallRig-Aluminum-Camera-System-2-1053/dp/B00AZFX77S

Clamps / mic mounts:
https://www.amazon.com/Smallrig-Connector-Adapter-Threads-Wingnut/dp/B006FGKUUI
https://www.ebay.com/itm/284372182840
https://www.ebay.com/itm/CAMVATE-15mm-Rod-Clamp-5-8-27-male-Screw-For-DSLR-Camera-Microphone-Mount-Rig/192885204041
https://www.ebay.com/itm/254774149388 (for attachment to stand)

M12 end-to-end connectors:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08RJ6WDX2

The only thing I am having trouble locating are M12 to 3/8-16 double-male adapters to connect these rods directly to a Dado-style ball. I could only find this one, and it's very versatile but a bit expensive:
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1198057-REG/zacuto_z_dadpt_half_inch_adapter.html

It also would be nice to find rod clamps that have 3/8-16 female threads but I haven't found any. It's not that I'm averse to using adapters; I don't quite trust short 1/4-20 screws to not break if things got bumped, particularly with mics spread out over a wide bar setup.


DPA 4061 ~ Line Audio CM3 ~ Naiant X-Q ~ AT 853  |  Naiant PFAs ~ Shure FP24  |  Zoom F6 ~ Sony PCM-M10
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Offline if_then_else

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Re: Cool modular mic bar system...
« Reply #38 on: October 26, 2021, 01:37:05 AM »
If you replace the M12 bars with M10 bars you could use some regular components of video rigs. (That's how I built mine.)
I think in one of the earlier threads, I had also posted a parts list.

 

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Cool modular mic bar system...
« Reply #39 on: October 26, 2021, 10:42:46 AM »
What ball-in-socket is that?  I've been meaning to search out one of those, compact but substantial enough to lock securely in whatever position without shifting.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline if_then_else

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Re: Cool modular mic bar system...
« Reply #40 on: October 26, 2021, 12:18:31 PM »
You mean those mini ball head adaptors? I've got mine from Amazon. I think these were labelled "Camvate" but they're also available under different names.
I like them. They're cheap (~ 10$ a pair) but reasonably sturdy.


https://www.amazon.com/CAMVATE-Mini-Ball-Head-Pack/dp/B07D9JCP18/ref=sr_1_21?crid=3ANBJ2T576X94&dchild=1&keywords=mini+ball+head&qid=1635264796&sprefix=mini+ball+head%2Caps%2C192&sr=8-21
« Last Edit: October 26, 2021, 12:33:57 PM by if_then_else »

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Cool modular mic bar system...
« Reply #41 on: October 26, 2021, 04:11:34 PM »
Thanks!
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline if_then_else

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Re: Cool modular mic bar system...
« Reply #42 on: October 28, 2021, 02:06:21 AM »

The only thing I am having trouble locating are M12 to 3/8-16 double-male adapters to connect these rods directly to a Dado-style ball. I could only find this one, and it's very versatile but a bit expensive:

It also would be nice to find rod clamps that have 3/8-16 female threads but I haven't found any. It's not that I'm averse to using adapters; I don't quite trust short 1/4-20 screws to not break if things got bumped, particularly with mics spread out over a wide bar setup.

Apparently, now there are also some rig rods by 9.solutions in various lengths (up to 50cm) that have male 3/8 threaded endings or come with the corresponding adaptors. Diameters are either 10mm or 15,8mm.

In other words: you could connect them directly to a Manfrotto Dado (or one of its knock-offs).

https://www.thomann.de/de/9solutions_3_8_rod_set_500_mm.htm
https://www.thomann.de/de/9.solutions_5_8_rod_set_500mm.htm

Offline voltronic

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Re: Cool modular mic bar system...
« Reply #43 on: October 28, 2021, 09:06:35 PM »

The only thing I am having trouble locating are M12 to 3/8-16 double-male adapters to connect these rods directly to a Dado-style ball. I could only find this one, and it's very versatile but a bit expensive:

It also would be nice to find rod clamps that have 3/8-16 female threads but I haven't found any. It's not that I'm averse to using adapters; I don't quite trust short 1/4-20 screws to not break if things got bumped, particularly with mics spread out over a wide bar setup.

Apparently, now there are also some rig rods by 9.solutions in various lengths (up to 50cm) that have male 3/8 threaded endings or come with the corresponding adaptors. Diameters are either 10mm or 15,8mm.

In other words: you could connect them directly to a Manfrotto Dado (or one of its knock-offs).

https://www.thomann.de/de/9solutions_3_8_rod_set_500_mm.htm
https://www.thomann.de/de/9.solutions_5_8_rod_set_500mm.htm

Thanks for reminding me of those! I had found them a while back after purchasing the (excellent) 9.solutions Savior Clamp with Socket. I had forgotten about them until your post. I think this is now the way I would go if making a Dado-based setup. You don't even need the Dado if using the 5/8" rods, as the double-male center connector also has a 3/8" female thread cut perpendicular so you can just mount that directly to your stand.

Here's the full selection of rods they make. The question is if the 5/8" rods (nearly 16 cm) would be too wide to use 15 mm camera rail clamps.
https://9.solutions/products/grip-rigging-system-2/

For US buyers, Adorama and B&H carry their products.

DPA 4061 ~ Line Audio CM3 ~ Naiant X-Q ~ AT 853  |  Naiant PFAs ~ Shure FP24  |  Zoom F6 ~ Sony PCM-M10
MOTU M2 ~ KRK Rokit RP5 ~ Sennheiser HD 650 ~ Etymotic ER4XR

Team Line Audio

Offline if_then_else

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Re: Cool modular mic bar system...
« Reply #44 on: October 29, 2021, 02:14:16 AM »

Thanks for reminding me of those! I had found them a while back after purchasing the (excellent) 9.solutions Savior Clamp with Socket. I had forgotten about them until your post. I think this is now the way I would go if making a Dado-based setup. You don't even need the Dado if using the 5/8" rods, as the double-male center connector also has a 3/8" female thread cut perpendicular so you can just mount that directly to your stand.

Here's the full selection of rods they make. The question is if the 5/8" rods (nearly 16 cm) would be too wide to use 15 mm camera rail clamps.
https://9.solutions/products/grip-rigging-system-2/

For US buyers, Adorama and B&H carry their products.

I think you should be good with the 5/8" rods because the difference isn't huge and there's a bit of slack with the camera rail clamps (unless you've fastened the thumb screws. I'd suspect 9.solution's 5.8" rods to be the same thing thing as regular 15mm rods anyway - because this is something like an industry standard.

Re. Dado or not as the centre-piece: This might depend on the number of mics you're going to run, their weight and the spacing between them.

 

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