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Author Topic: Relationships between spaced omnis and center mic  (Read 8224 times)

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Offline dyneq

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Re: Relationships between spaced omnis and center mic
« Reply #30 on: October 26, 2021, 11:57:35 AM »
Bumping to ask if anyone knows of any examples of this technique I can critically listen to. I'm most interested in the wider omnis + XY PAS configuration.

I'm also interested in any post-processing tips. If I try this, I would most likely just clap three times at the beginning and end of the show and use those spikes to line the sources up (M10 & A10). The blend of sources is obviously a matter of taste, but did you apply a low shelf cut on the cardioid source, etc?

Thanks!

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Relationships between spaced omnis and center mic
« Reply #31 on: October 26, 2021, 05:34:52 PM »
I've been meaning to put up samples of the individual pairs and mix combinations for years.. and will try to get to that.  I'm too involved with work stuff currently.

You'll find mixed examples of spaced omnis + X/Y in the kickdown and at archive.

Use a 4+ channel recorder if you can.  If you need to record to two stereo recorders instead of one multichannel recorder, the clap thing can help you line up the two recordings.  Clap from directly in front, that way the peaks will line up for all four mic channels.  If you clap off to one side or the other, once you zoom in to see the transient, the closer omni will be seen to peak 1st, then the X/Y pair simultaneously, then the far omni.

I'd clap again at the end, so you can determine how much drift occurred over the course of the recording..  if audibly significant, you can use the two transient peaks to stretch one source to fit the other.

No need to do any processing other than lining up and adjusting levels to start.  Give each pair a listen on its own, and correct the level balance of each pair individually if necessary before playing around with mixing them.  Then unmute one pair and bring up the level of the other slowly while listening.  Play around with various level combinations.  Try it the other way too, starting with the other pair first then slowly bringing up the level of the second.  That may be all you need to do.

You can go further and try all kinds of things (the combination of two pairs provides many degrees of freedom), but its usually best to start with simply getting each pair sounding well balanced and correct on its own first, then play with the mix level between the two while listening.
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Offline dyneq

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Re: Relationships between spaced omnis and center mic
« Reply #32 on: October 26, 2021, 07:32:14 PM »
Quote from: Gutbucket
I've been meaning to put up samples of the individual pairs and mix combinations for years.. and will try to get to that.  I'm too involved with work stuff currently.
I completely understand.
Quote from: Gutbucket
You'll find mixed examples of spaced omnis + X/Y in the kickdown and at archive.
I've searched the LMA with some success, although I'm mostly finding very large omni spacing alone; no center cards. I'll search for something in kickdown.
Quote from: Gutbucket
Use a 4+ channel recorder if you can.  If you need to record to two stereo recorders instead of one multichannel recorder, the clap thing can help you line up the two recordings.  Clap from directly in front, that way the peaks will line up for all four mic channels.  If you clap off to one side or the other, once you zoom in to see the transient, the closer omni will be seen to peak 1st, then the X/Y pair simultaneously, then the far omni.
This was what I had intended to do, but I'm glad that you shared your experience. I'm not yet ready to invest in a 4 channel recorder.
Quote from: Gutbucket
No need to do any processing other than lining up and adjusting levels to start.
Sounds good, thanks!

If I come up with something good or interesting to share, I'll post it here.

Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Relationships between spaced omnis and center mic
« Reply #33 on: October 26, 2021, 08:38:01 PM »
Bumping to ask if anyone knows of any examples of this technique I can critically listen to. I'm most interested in the wider omnis + XY PAS configuration.

I'm also interested in any post-processing tips. If I try this, I would most likely just clap three times at the beginning and end of the show and use those spikes to line the sources up (M10 & A10). The blend of sources is obviously a matter of taste, but did you apply a low shelf cut on the cardioid source, etc?

Thanks!
I know we have done this exact combo, but cannot locate it with a quick search.
Here are some which come close: click the links and see the mic configs
https://archive.org/details/delmccoury2016-07-15.24.ck22ck8ck61   

https://archive.org/details/steepcanyon2016-07-14.24.ck22ck414.flac

https://archive.org/details/woodbro2019-01-24.AKGc426AKGck61DPA4061

https://archive.org/details/woodbros2019-01-24.dpaakg-24    ***This one is wide omnis XY PAS ***    (I'm trying..)  :P

https://archive.org/details/ttb2019-07-14.akgomt-24

https://archive.org/details/ttb2017-07-03.akgck2261-24             

Most posts have photos of the mic array either as the front photo OR in the .jogs section. I will think and ask kindms if we can nail down some more pure OMT4 XY PAS|Wide omnis for you.
I have more that are not on LMA, such as Gov't Mule and Phish.  Maybe WT them to you if you are interested. PM me of so
 
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Offline dyneq

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Re: Relationships between spaced omnis and center mic
« Reply #34 on: October 26, 2021, 09:35:11 PM »
Much appreciated! If you locate some more with XY PAS, please let me know.

Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Relationships between spaced omnis and center mic
« Reply #35 on: October 27, 2021, 12:40:01 AM »
https://archive.org/details/sbb2018-09-21.AKGc426AKGck22
AKG c426 (hypers, 65deg) >V3 >PMD 661 & AKG ck22 (4ft Split) >V2 >Tascam DR680

Specifically PAS in the middle but with hypers
------------------------------------------------
https://archive.org/details/twiddle2017-09-03.akgck22beyerm201-24
Source: 75 feet from stacks Rt corner SBD tent
ch1|2 AKG 460|ck22 naiant active spread 60 cm
ch3|4 Beyer M201e hypercardiod X-Y 60'
> Tascam DR680|SD
Specifically PAS in the middle but with Beyer hypers

« Last Edit: October 27, 2021, 12:44:32 AM by rocksuitcase »
music IS love

When you get confused, listen to the music play!

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Offline dyneq

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Re: Relationships between spaced omnis and center mic
« Reply #36 on: October 27, 2021, 10:22:16 AM »
Thanks again! After listening, my initial impressions are:
  • I prefer the outdoor examples (not surprising since wide omnis excel in that environment to my ears), and the center mic(s) really do solve the 'hole in the middle' problem that I hear on some of the super wide examples I've listened to.
  • The 0/180 examples really excel at the 'you are there' feel with a natural crowd/ambience presence.
  • The one wide omni + XY example with no other mic configs (Twiddle) sounds excellent! I'm intrigued and will most likely give this a go. Do you recall about how far away you were for that one?
My motivation for trying this is that, while I'm generally very happy with my cardioid pulls in terms of stereo imaging, the resulting low frequency energy is naturally lacking. I have a K.I.S.S. and minimalist philosophy, so I tend to resist adding complexity to my setup.

My initial conclusion: to capture more low frequency energy I can either get closer to the PA with my cardioids to (maximize the proximity effect) or try this hybrid approach outdoors from the section.

Offline DSatz

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Re: Relationships between spaced omnis and center mic
« Reply #37 on: October 29, 2021, 11:15:37 AM »
I'm a latecomer to this thread and I haven't read the preceding posts, which may doom what I have to say to irrelevance, but: A third, center microphone in a two-channel stereo recording is useful when there is something particular for it to pick up--something that is available mainly to it, and not (or not clearly enough) to the other two microphones. Decca and RCA classical records used three main microphones (and three recording channels on 1/2" tape) for many years, with or without acoustic baffles to increase the separation of sound pickup among the three microphones at mid and high frequencies. (Decca went through far more variations than the public seems to know about; there's no one cookbook formula for a "Decca Tree" that deserves any special prominence over all others.)

But if the center mike is only going to pick up another "spatial sample" of the same general sound that the left and right microphones are immersed in, then it has a rather different kind of effect, which is to scramble the phase relationships in the recording and produce "comb-filter" effects--which can be interesting and useful, or harmful, or meh. To a great extent it's a game of chance. Sometimes it helps if you filter out the bass from the center microphone, and sometimes not.

Just make sure that you record the mid mike on its own track, because when you get home and review the recording, if you're honest with yourself, half the time or more you will find that the input from the center mike changes the sound but doesn't really improve it. There's something about listening to the output of two microphones with two speakers and two ears that is more engaging and less tiring than listening to multiple microphones working out their petty conflicts. Try not to be biased by the expense and trouble that you've gone to in setting three mikes up rather than two, if you can.

--best regards

P.S. added later: I see that one issue is the attempt to get more bass when the main microphones are cardioids. Proximity effect can't be used for this in most cases. The situation can definitely be helped by taking the low-frequency output from one or a (spaced) pair of pressure transducers. But mono bass is inherently boring, so the spaced pair is enormously preferable in terms of the spaciousness of the result, and four tracks rather than three are then called for. As a crossover frequency I suggest something quite low such as 50 Hz.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2021, 11:25:33 AM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Relationships between spaced omnis and center mic
« Reply #38 on: October 29, 2021, 11:25:49 AM »

  • The one wide omni + XY example with no other mic configs (Twiddle) sounds excellent! I'm intrigued and will most likely give this a go. Do you recall about how far away you were for that one?

Source: 75 feet from stacks Rt corner SBD tent
Here is another XY center with the AKG c426 with AKG omnis split about 4 feet, and the 426 in XY hypercardioid 65' (PAS)
https://archive.org/details/sbb2018-09-21.AKGc426AKGck22
« Last Edit: October 29, 2021, 11:27:35 AM by rocksuitcase »
music IS love

When you get confused, listen to the music play!

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Recorders:Marantz PMD661 OADE Concert mod; Tascam DR680 MKI

Offline dyneq

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Re: Relationships between spaced omnis and center mic
« Reply #39 on: October 29, 2021, 11:34:00 AM »
Thanks for the insights, DSatz. I stated my motivation to experiment with this technique in my last post. I'm certainly not looking for more post-processing work, as that is not task that I particularly enjoy.

Based on the examples I've listened to, this technique seems like it would be most useful in an outdoor setting to capture the PA from the soundboard. The widely spaced omnis alone in this setting capture the low frequencies I'm desiring, but at the expense of a hole in the middle in terms of stereo imaging. If I do try it, I will follow your advice and record the center to its own track.

Offline dyneq

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Re: Relationships between spaced omnis and center mic
« Reply #40 on: October 29, 2021, 11:41:14 AM »

  • The one wide omni + XY example with no other mic configs (Twiddle) sounds excellent! I'm intrigued and will most likely give this a go. Do you recall about how far away you were for that one?

Source: 75 feet from stacks Rt corner SBD tent
Here is another XY center with the AKG c426 with AKG omnis split about 4 feet, and the 426 in XY hypercardioid 65' (PAS)
https://archive.org/details/sbb2018-09-21.AKGc426AKGck22

Thanks again! You had shared that one previously, and I found it to be a bit distant sounding (I find that to be often true of my own recordings from the section) without the same high-frequency energy as the Twiddle recording. You're a bit closer than for Twiddle, but perhaps different PA and volume level? I think gutbucket mentioned earlier that it's best to point the XY capsules at the stacks. Do you recall if that was the case for this one?

Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Relationships between spaced omnis and center mic
« Reply #41 on: October 29, 2021, 01:22:15 PM »

  • The one wide omni + XY example with no other mic configs (Twiddle) sounds excellent! I'm intrigued and will most likely give this a go. Do you recall about how far away you were for that one?

Source: 75 feet from stacks Rt corner SBD tent
Here is another XY center with the AKG c426 with AKG omnis split about 4 feet, and the 426 in XY hypercardioid 65' (PAS)
https://archive.org/details/sbb2018-09-21.AKGc426AKGck22

Thanks again! You had shared that one previously, and I found it to be a bit distant sounding (I find that to be often true of my own recordings from the section) without the same high-frequency energy as the Twiddle recording. You're a bit closer than for Twiddle, but perhaps different PA and volume level? I think gutbucket mentioned earlier that it's best to point the XY capsules at the stacks. Do you recall if that was the case for this one?
65' would be PAS at that venue. Those recommendations are mainly to try to pick up more directional signal from the PA into the center mics than using the traditi0onal 90 or 110 degree XY. The PA's at each venue are certainly different. The Ives is not a class A system IMO.
https://archive.org/details/breakfast2018-03-24.akgck3_ck22
https://archive.org/details/jgb2018-03-24.akgck3_ck22

Here are two sets where we had the run of the place and so spaced the omnis about 15 feet apart, then put an XY 60' (PAS) Hyper center.
music IS love

When you get confused, listen to the music play!

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Offline dyneq

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Re: Relationships between spaced omnis and center mic
« Reply #42 on: October 29, 2021, 03:03:31 PM »
65' would be PAS at that venue. Those recommendations are mainly to try to pick up more directional signal from the PA into the center mics than using the traditi0onal 90 or 110 degree XY. The PA's at each venue are certainly different. The Ives is not a class A system IMO.
https://archive.org/details/breakfast2018-03-24.akgck3_ck22
https://archive.org/details/jgb2018-03-24.akgck3_ck22

Here are two sets where we had the run of the place and so spaced the omnis about 15 feet apart, then put an XY 60' (PAS) Hyper center.
Awesome, thanks again. I'm not familiar with the venue. Is it indoors or out?

Same venue on the same day, with the same setup...yet they sound different to me. The JGB has more high frequency energy than The Breakfast; it sounds really good! I would imagine that such a wide spread would have a major hole in the middle by itself. The more I listen to different examples, the more I'm starting to understand why gutbucket recommends wider spreads for this technique.

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Re: Relationships between spaced omnis and center mic
« Reply #43 on: October 29, 2021, 03:33:55 PM »
65' would be PAS at that venue. Those recommendations are mainly to try to pick up more directional signal from the PA into the center mics than using the traditi0onal 90 or 110 degree XY. The PA's at each venue are certainly different. The Ives is not a class A system IMO.
https://archive.org/details/breakfast2018-03-24.akgck3_ck22
https://archive.org/details/jgb2018-03-24.akgck3_ck22

Here are two sets where we had the run of the place and so spaced the omnis about 15 feet apart, then put an XY 60' (PAS) Hyper center.
Awesome, thanks again. I'm not familiar with the venue. Is it indoors or out?

Same venue on the same day, with the same setup...yet they sound different to me. The JGB has more high frequency energy than The Breakfast; it sounds really good! I would imagine that such a wide spread would have a major hole in the middle by itself. The more I listen to different examples, the more I'm starting to understand why gutbucket recommends wider spreads for this technique.
indoors, it is an old Catskills Borchtbelt dinner theatre.
Interesting take and proves you have GOOD ears.
JGB brought their own soundman, and they spent a long time doing SIM in the room which certainly had not been done prior to the BKFST set.

Split past 10 feet is the perfect way to do OMT. In fact, I'd say, if one split the omnis out to the exact width of the PA stacks, THEN run the center, you would be optimal from a mixdown perspective.
music IS love

When you get confused, listen to the music play!

Mics:         AKG460|CK61|CK1|CK3|CK8|Beyer M 201E|DPA 4060 SK
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Offline dyneq

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Re: Relationships between spaced omnis and center mic
« Reply #44 on: October 29, 2021, 05:24:47 PM »
I don't know what SIM stands for, but I'm guessing you mean that they used measurement mics and EQ to dial in the room?

What's interesting is that this is the first example of an indoor pull with spread omnis that I have liked. I tried to look up photos of the hall, but it's hard to tell the shape, etc. Being 50ft from the stage probably helped a lot in terms of capturing direct energy vs the room and crowd.

Anyway, it's an excellent recording so kudos to you! It's funny, because a good friend just recommended that I check the band out.

 

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