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Author Topic: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3  (Read 75647 times)

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Offline fireonshakedwnstreet

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #345 on: October 25, 2022, 12:41:15 AM »
Hear, hear! I'm with checht: big props to GB! Have been consistent pulls with the OMT8 set up. Happy with this WolfDog recording at Westville Music Bowl: https://archive.org/details/bw2022-10-01.omt8audmtx.perez.t-flac16. Ran OMT8 last night at Phil with all directional mics (split cards), plus the usual shotgun, hyper, super combo. Still working on that one. Keep it rolling!
Mics: AT 3031; AT 853Rx (c, o); Samson C02; Studio Projects C4 (c, o, h); Nak 300/Tascam PE-125/JVC M510 (cp-1, cp-2, cp-3, JVC M510 superdirectional caps)
Recorders: Tascam DR-680 MkII; Tascam DR-70D
Pres: Edirol UA-5 (Oade PMod & WMod); Marantz PMD661 (OCM); Marantz PMD620 (Oade WMod); Naiant MidBox; Shure FP11 (x2)
https://archive.org/details/@fireonshakedwnstreet

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #346 on: October 25, 2022, 10:39:57 AM »
Thanks guys! And thanks for the links. Feels good to know other tapers are using these techniques and making outstanding recordings with them.  In part as confirmation that I'm not totally crazy following this oddball path.  Its been my primary way of giving back to the community, as I rarely get around to getting my recordings out unless the artist requests it and I make the time to do it - certainly my weak point.  But I'm looking forward to my next life chapter when I can really immerse myself in working on the back catalog.  Good stuff in there.  What a long strange trip!
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline fireonshakedwnstreet

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #347 on: October 26, 2022, 11:54:30 AM »
Phil from Sunday: https://archive.org/details/paf2022-10-23.omt8-audmtx.perez.t-flac16

Source: OMT8 AUD MTX (24/44.1)
Channels 1|2: Studio Projects C4 (hyper), split 2' @ 45 degrees -> Naiant MidBox -> Tascam DR-680MKII
Channel  3|4: Tascam PE-125 w/ JVC M510 Superdirectional caps, split 6”, PAS -> Marantz PMD 661 (Oade Concert Mod) -> Tascam DR-680MKII
Channel  5|6: Audio Technica 853Rx (cards) A-B split 3'-> Edirol UA-5 (Oade Warm Mod)  -> Tascam DR-680MKII
Channels 7|8: Samson CO2 (supercard), X-Y PAS -> Edirol UA-5 (Oade Presence Mod) -> Tascam DR-680MKII  :yack:
Mics: AT 3031; AT 853Rx (c, o); Samson C02; Studio Projects C4 (c, o, h); Nak 300/Tascam PE-125/JVC M510 (cp-1, cp-2, cp-3, JVC M510 superdirectional caps)
Recorders: Tascam DR-680 MkII; Tascam DR-70D
Pres: Edirol UA-5 (Oade PMod & WMod); Marantz PMD661 (OCM); Marantz PMD620 (Oade WMod); Naiant MidBox; Shure FP11 (x2)
https://archive.org/details/@fireonshakedwnstreet

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #348 on: October 31, 2022, 09:57:13 AM »
Thx! Diggin' the wide-split cards.  It's sounding sweet and as-there even on the throw-away airline headphones I'm using at the moment.  Can't judge bottom at all on these though, so that will have to wait. 
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline fireonshakedwnstreet

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #349 on: January 11, 2023, 12:37:47 PM »
Phish at MSG N1 from the first row of the OTS

https://www.mixcloud.com/dptapes/phish-2022-12-28-madison-square-garden/


free pic hosting

Good times!

Source: OMT8 AUD MTX (24/44.1)
Channels 1|2: Studio Projects C4 (hyper), split 2' @ 45 degrees -> Naiant MidBox -> Tascam DR-680MKII
Channels 3|4: JVC M510 w/ Superdirectional caps, split 6 inches, PAS -> Marantz PMD 661 (Oade Concert Mod) -> Tascam DR-680MKII
Channels 5|6: Tascam PE-125 w/ CP-3 pinpoint omni caps, A-B split 3'-> Edirol UA-5 (Oade Warm Mod) -> Tascam DR-680MKII
Channels 7|8: Audio Technica 3031, X-Y PAS -> Edirol UA-5 (Oade Presence Mod) -> Tascam DR-680MKII

Mics: AT 3031; AT 853Rx (c, o); Samson C02; Studio Projects C4 (c, o, h); Nak 300/Tascam PE-125/JVC M510 (cp-1, cp-2, cp-3, JVC M510 superdirectional caps)
Recorders: Tascam DR-680 MkII; Tascam DR-70D
Pres: Edirol UA-5 (Oade PMod & WMod); Marantz PMD661 (OCM); Marantz PMD620 (Oade WMod); Naiant MidBox; Shure FP11 (x2)
https://archive.org/details/@fireonshakedwnstreet

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #350 on: January 11, 2023, 04:17:46 PM »
Right on & thumbs up!  Will try and give a listen tonight.

Help me reconcile the channel/mic list and the photo. A bit hard to make it out, but I only see 6 mics on the top bar.  I see another pair clamped underneath, but those look to have short shotgun windscreens and may belong to another taper?
Quote
Channels 3|4: JVC M510 w/ Superdirectional caps, split 6 inches, PAS -> Marantz PMD 661 (Oade Concert Mod) -> Tascam DR-680MKII
Channels 7|8: Audio Technica 3031, X-Y PAS -> Edirol UA-5 (Oade Presence Mod) -> Tascam DR-680MKII

Is that the 6" split PAS JVCs or the PAS X/Y AT3031's in the center of the top bar?  Curious about this combination if both are used in the mix.  Seems like they are quite close together and angled identically, which seems quite likely to produce comb-filtering when the signals from those two pairs are combined in the mix. Tell me more. Am I missing something?  What was your experience when putting together the mix?
« Last Edit: January 11, 2023, 05:20:42 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #351 on: January 11, 2023, 05:20:51 PM »
^[EDIT]  Ok, I went back and reviewed our conversation a page or so back (last July) where you mention that the JVC's are shotguns, so those must be the pair clamped below the mic bar, and discuss your mixing method.  Got it.  Those shotguns look wider than 6" though.  Are you measuring from the diaphragm position? Can be tricky on a shotgun as the diaphragm is located in front of the amplifier body, but at the rear of the interference tube, behind the slots, or rather, just ahead of the rear vents which may be the last couple slots or a separate set spaced a bit behind the slots in the tube.  The vertical distance between the X/Y pair and the clamped shotguns may help reduce the combing problem, or may just shift it around in frequency.

In that post you also say-
Quote
Ideally I should be running a super or hyper in that X-Y configuration, but I would rather run those narrower patterns as the near spaced pair directly at the stacks. They just soak up direct signal in that configuration. I think the cards would pick up way too much from the sides spread out wide like that.
 
First part of this rings true to me.  I find I'm gravitating toward pointing the ~2' spaced supercards (which are currently at +/-45 degrees ) more toward the stacks when recording from farther away than I'd like or in a reverberant room, because like you say they just soak up direct signal in that configuration and almost provide a zoom-in effect, but want to increase spacing of that pair when I do so to compensate for the narrowed angle.  Moving from OMT4 to OMT6 with that directional pair between the wide omnis and center coincident pair takes some pressure off the coincident pair providing most of the clarity and presence, so somewhat wider pattern Mid or X/Y pattern and angle can work.

Second part doesn't ring with me.  Picking up more from the sides is all about pattern and the angle between the mics.  Spacing the same cardioids wider won't pickup more from the sides, but angling them wider will.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline fireonshakedwnstreet

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #352 on: January 11, 2023, 05:39:00 PM »
Right on & thumbs up!  Will try and give a listen tonight.

Help me reconcile the channel/mic list and the photo. A bit hard to make it out, but I only see 6 mics on the top bar.  I see another pair clamped underneath, but those look to have short shotgun windscreens and may belong to another taper?
Quote
Channels 3|4: JVC M510 w/ Superdirectional caps, split 6 inches, PAS -> Marantz PMD 661 (Oade Concert Mod) -> Tascam DR-680MKII
Channels 7|8: Audio Technica 3031, X-Y PAS -> Edirol UA-5 (Oade Presence Mod) -> Tascam DR-680MKII

Is that the 6" split PAS JVCs or the PAS X/Y AT3031's in the center of the top bar?  Curious about this combination if both are used in the mix.  Seems like they are quite close together and angled identically, which seems quite likely to produce comb-filtering when the signals from those two pairs are combined in the mix. Tell me more. Am I missing something?  What was your experience when putting together the mix?

Hey gb! Yeah its a rough pic. On the top bar are the CP-3 omnis, split wide, the Studio Projects hypers are next at 45 degrees and the AT 3031 cards XY are in the center. The JVC M510 short shotguns are clamped below the rest of the array (and yes they are mine). I always clamp the shotguns separately since there isn't enough space on the bar. I would've like another foot for the split, but 4' gets a little too obtrusive indoors. Not sure if there was comb filtering in the end result though. I did use all the channels.
Mics: AT 3031; AT 853Rx (c, o); Samson C02; Studio Projects C4 (c, o, h); Nak 300/Tascam PE-125/JVC M510 (cp-1, cp-2, cp-3, JVC M510 superdirectional caps)
Recorders: Tascam DR-680 MkII; Tascam DR-70D
Pres: Edirol UA-5 (Oade PMod & WMod); Marantz PMD661 (OCM); Marantz PMD620 (Oade WMod); Naiant MidBox; Shure FP11 (x2)
https://archive.org/details/@fireonshakedwnstreet

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #353 on: January 11, 2023, 06:11:42 PM »
Cool, thanks!

If you can, consider shifting the center X/Y pair forward of the bar by about 20cm/8".  I've been modeling what forward spacing does between a pair of omnis or directionals in simpler 3 and 4 channel arrangements, and the models suggest rather consistently that 20cm or a bit more is about right in most cases.  More on that here when I get a chance.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline fireonshakedwnstreet

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #354 on: January 11, 2023, 07:12:19 PM »
Thank gb. Yeah those guns probably are a little wider than that even measuring from the back of the tube. I am not good with eye measurements! I definitely try to adjust the hyper near spaced pair toward the stacks from that far back (I want to say this was 150'). Moving that XY pair up is something I definitely want to think about doing. Gotta figure out how to rig that up without going even more crazy ;D. Totally understand your points on the cards as the near spaced pair.
Mics: AT 3031; AT 853Rx (c, o); Samson C02; Studio Projects C4 (c, o, h); Nak 300/Tascam PE-125/JVC M510 (cp-1, cp-2, cp-3, JVC M510 superdirectional caps)
Recorders: Tascam DR-680 MkII; Tascam DR-70D
Pres: Edirol UA-5 (Oade PMod & WMod); Marantz PMD661 (OCM); Marantz PMD620 (Oade WMod); Naiant MidBox; Shure FP11 (x2)
https://archive.org/details/@fireonshakedwnstreet

Offline al w.

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #355 on: January 04, 2024, 02:35:13 PM »
I'm looking forward to trying out an OMT-6 rig for the first time tomorrow!

Eggy is playing in the Treehouse Deerfield taproom, which is a large open room with a slanted glass ceiling. Based on my experience last year , I expect a lot of chatter but also a nice warm ambiance. I've attached some reference photos; one is from their performance last year which was acoustic. This year I expect a full band electric performance.

With these considerations in mind, I'm currently planning to run:
  • Z Sigma Chi SD-H FX hypers (center, XY) - I need to move these further forward before running the rig
  • Peluso CEMC-6 hypers (near spaced, ~45°)
  • Line Audio omnis (spaced ~1m) with pressure sphere attachments
I have the card and subcard caps for the Peluso pair, too. Considering whether to use one of those instead of the near spaced hypers. I'm planning to set up near the soundboard, so I'll be fairly close.

They're playing two nights, so I have the option to switch it up for night two!

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #356 on: January 04, 2024, 05:36:09 PM »
Whoa! Has it really been a full year since any activity in the OMT thread?  Happy New Year!

Have a few OMT things to post about I'll get to in the coming days, but first a few comments on Al W's post above..
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #357 on: January 04, 2024, 05:36:58 PM »
Hi Al, that OMT6 arrangement pictured above looks good! 

That's a funky room.  Tall and wide but not very deep.  I'd ordinarily say fly high to make the pickup of disinterested chatter less localized and more diffuse, but be careful to stay within the vertical coverage pattern of the PA speakers, which in those photos appear rather low.  Essentially, the mics should be positioned so as to have a clear and direct line into the throat of the high frequency horns of the PA speakers, which means not positioned so high that they end up outside of the good coverage sector defined by an imaginary extension of the high frequency horn walls out into the room.

Not sure of the sphere's on the omnis, which is something you may want to play around with moving forward. With that 3' omni spread in your OMT6 array, the omnis provide good bottom end extension and diffuse ambiance.  I'd probably point the spheres directly out to either side to help with both (+/-90 deg), or at least +/-45 deg rather than directly forward.. more on that below.

I actually removed the spheres from my omnis at a fest in early October and have been recording without them since then, and think I'll leave it that way.  One thing influencing that decision is that the tiny DPA omnis are near invisible without the sphere attachments, which sometimes allows me to extend the omnis further out than I might otherwise comfortably get away with, which is good since my preferred OMT omni spacing is 5'-6'.  On that point- at a two night new years run last weekend I extended them fully out to 6 feet with no one noticing except one other local taper who looked up from directly underneath said "I think your rig is jammed up against some kind of wire running across the room", which I pointed out was actually not a suspended wire but the thin black TV antennas with the omnis mounted at the ends.

I've talked a lot about the sphere attachments in the OMT threads and don't want to rehash all that too much, but will sum up my current thoughts on them here..
1) I feel the spheres are most useful in more minimal microphone setups.  They are often a great asset when using a single pair of spaced omnis on their own because they provide a bit more forward focus. 

2) At the other end of the spectrum, I'm not convinced I need or want them at all in my current OMT8 array, in which I have directional mics facing forward and rearward, essentially covering all horizontal directions, and I'm usually able to get the omnis out to 5' or more. I feel that as additional directional channels are added to the array using the spheres becomes less important, yet they still remain useful if pointed directly out to either side when the omni spacing isn't as wide as I'd like. Pointing the omnis out to either side helps even without the spheres because it pushes the omni caps out somewhat wider than the mic-bar otherwise allows. 

3) Other than pointed out to the sides, I go back and forth on how best to orient the spheres in conjunction with directional mics facing forward - especially with an OMT6 array where there are 3 or 4 forward facing directional mics.  Without any rear-facing mics I think I may prefer them angled backwards so as to capture a more diffuse ambiance from all directions. That slight high frequency rearward bias partly fills the roll of dedicated rear-facing directional channels.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2024, 05:38:45 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline al w.

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #358 on: January 04, 2024, 05:58:01 PM »
Thanks for the feedback, Gutbucket! I really appreciate it. I will think about the omni spheres and their angle and will report back on how it goes!

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #359 on: January 04, 2024, 10:48:36 PM »

al w.
Once you put the subcard caps on the Pelusos you will never take them off. They are the best caps they make - perfect balance of warmth and clarity.
Line Audio CM3/OM1 || MBHO KA500 hyper>PFA|| ADK A51 type IV || AKG C522XY
Oade Warm Mod and Presence+ Mod UA5s || Aerco MP2(needs help) || Neve Portico 5012 || Apogee MMP
SD Mixpre6 || Oade Concert Mod DR100mkii

pocket sized - CA11 cards > SP SB10 > Sony PCM A10

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/goodcooker

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