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Author Topic: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)  (Read 7422 times)

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Offline RobBain

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Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« on: July 29, 2020, 09:56:31 AM »
Hi

I did search before posting (but didn't find anything recent that addressed my questions).

1. Binaural recording - where do you stand?  Often use?  Sometimes use?  Niche offering?  Just for kicks?  Waste of time (why?)

2. Gear.  I'm put off by low-end products (I don't want to use my iPhone).  If I'm going to do this I want a 3.5mm connector.  I don't want to spend $$$s (no heads!).  Is there a sweet spot currently in the market?  I'm a quiet, ambient recordist (not a rock taper).

3. What's the difference between 'binaural' and simply positioning a good pair of mics in or near your ears?  Little difference?  Big difference (if so, why?)?

Many thanks in advance.

Regards,

Rob
Sony PCM-A10 | Sennheiser MKE 600 / LOM mikroUsi's / Clippy EM172s

Offline Len Moskowitz (Core Sound)

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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2020, 10:22:05 AM »
(We've been manufacturing binaural microphones for 30 years. We're the originator of the clip-on binaural microphones for concert taping.)

If you're recording for yourself and want to capture the concert experience very well for playback over headphones, recording with a pair of high quality microphones mounted near your ears is the way to go.

Since you're using your ears, and everyone elses ears are different, the recording you'll make will sound best for you. Others will hear it differently.

The difference between a binaural mic set and good pair of mics in or near your ears is the degree to which the microphones are matched, in both frequency response and sensitivity.

About price: We offer three levels of binaural mic sets, starting at $85 for our Low Cost Binaural microphone set, up to over $1000 for the High End Binaural microphone set using DPA capsules.

www.core-sound.com
Len Moskowitz
Core Sound
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Offline heva

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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2020, 10:30:57 AM »
Hopefully Moke will chime in because he regularly records with a proper binaural rig (dummy head, etc).

I'd wager that most of the "binaural" recordings made by tapers are more accurately described as HRTF (myself included).

Also, I think "binaural microphone" is a bit of a misnomer.  There may be microphones configured to be well-suited to a binaural setup, but saying "binaural microphone" is a bit like saying DIN microphone or ORTF microphone.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2020, 10:34:32 AM by heathen »
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Offline vanark

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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2020, 10:38:08 AM »
Hopefully Moke will chime in

Not likely. He deleted his account.
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Online heathen

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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2020, 10:41:24 AM »
Hopefully Moke will chime in

Not likely. He deleted his account.

Really?  That's a bummer.

RobBain, you could search for some of his old posts (though I don't know if they'd still show up?) if you want to see a proper binaural rig in action.  I seem to recall that rocksuitcase may have used a proper binaural rig for some Grateful Dead shows in the 80s, but I could be way off there.  My memory isn't the greatest.
Mics: AT4050ST | AT4031 | AT853 (C/SC) | Line Audio CM3 | Sennheiser e614 | Sennheiser MKE2 | DPA 4061 | CA-14 omni Pres: CA9200 | DPA d:vice Decks: Zoom F8 | Roland R-05

Offline b9audio

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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2020, 11:24:54 AM »
This is recorded with Sennheiser Ambeo headphone/microphones, using my head as the real "dummy" head.
Good, but not ideal. The position is good for shooting video, but too far to sound. The worst part of this, is that you cannot make any noise, difficult when you want to clear your throat to prevent coughing.
https://youtu.be/tVioryBRC7w
Binaural recording is one of the best stereo miking to my experience. The logic is simple, omni microphones are best for sonic performance, but a pair of omni must be spaced to create stereo image. With dummy head, the omni pair can be very close together similar to ORTF, NOS that minimized phasing issue. Here is an example of a binaural dummy head recording:
https://youtu.be/R9jOBV5n-Ms

Offline dyneq

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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2020, 11:56:09 AM »
Since you want to do quiet ambient recordings, you will need to be aware of microphone and preamplifier self noise. Typically that means spending more.

Best thing to do is experiment yourself and listen to samples to determine what you want. Who will be listening to your recordings? Will they be using headphones or speakers?

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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2020, 12:55:28 PM »
Most concert tapers using omnidirectional mics mounted on their person place them on either side of the head somewhere on the temple between the ear and corner of the eye.  That method is generally referred to as HRTF around taperssection.com, which stands for Head Related Transfer Function with one's the head acting as a baffle.  Its not strictly binaural because it does not include the filtering imposed by the outer ear that happens with microphones placed at or inside the ear canals, but it is similar.  That makes it a generally more universal recording method which works well for playback over both speakers and headphones and isn't overly specific to any one particular "set of ears".

Some tapers occasionally use dummy heads instead of their own head, but its not especially common.  Most are "generic heads" with simplified ears.

True binaural recording sampling at the ear-drum (using tiny flexible tubes) is useful in hall acoustics research because it is the only way to reproduce the sound as it was experienced by a listener seated in a specific location in a particular hall.  This requires carefully applied methods to remove binaural response data specific to the individual who's head and ears were used to make the recording, and apply corrections specific to the listener's own binaural response through the specific headphones being used.  David Greisinger uses and writes about this approach extensively.  I believe some of this can be useful to tapers- primarily the corrections applied on the reproduction end for headphone listening more so than the recording techniques.

It is interesting that binaural techniques can provide a form of truly accurate perceptual reproduction, but for music tapers and location recordists the goal is believably and listening enjoyment.  In general binaural recordings give you a "you are there" type listening experience, be that good or bad.  Using 'open rig' recording techniques we can make recordings that can sound better and be more enjoyable than it actually sounded during the performance from that spot.

Two different approaches.


I'm put off by low-end products (I don't want to use my iPhone).  If I'm going to do this I want a 3.5mm connector.  I don't want to spend $$$s (no heads!).  Is there a sweet spot currently in the market?  I'm a quiet, ambient recordist (not a rock taper).

The DPA d:vice connects directly to Iphone (unfortunately not Andrioid compatible) for use with their microphones.  It represents one of the most top quality (and very compact) setups currently available, applicable but not limited to HTRF type recording.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2020, 12:56:09 PM »
I'm chiming in although I need to come back and edit more.
Rob, there is such a  thing as a "proper binaural" set of microphones. I wish Len had gone a bit more in detail (about the mic design itself) as he knows more about this than my psychoacoustic former hydrophone designer self. True Binaural technique uses capsules which are pressure "omnis" ## which are aimed upward into the ear canal, typically using a dummy head, but can be used on your own head. Different from placing typical omni capsules on glasses or near your ears in that each individual's pinnae are unique including that of a dummy head. In Psychoacoustics this is known as the Head Related Transfer function (HRTF), the difference in arrival and location cues in each microphone separated by ones own head or a dummy head.

One result of this is recordings made wearing binaural mics IN the ears are OPTIMALLY played back via headphones or earbuds by the same person who wore the microphones. Playback by others, even with optimal equipment may not hear the same things the original wearer of the mics hears. Thus, the hanging omnis by glasses or clips on a hat has become de rigeur for today's field and hobby recordists in order to listen on stereo speakers or share with a wider audience.

There was a user here, moke, Mike French, who does a fair amount of Binaural recording of generally acoustic music groups using a Sennheiser dummy head. He started using the microphones aimed outward toward the stage or primary sound source as opposed to upward toward the pinnae. He calls that configuration HRTF as it relies only on the Head transfer functions and not the pinnae for accurate reproduction. His technique is top notch.

Product wise-The pinnacle of this was probably the B&K HATS (Head and Torso) heads, then Neumann made one which is a bit more modern and good looking enough to place in symphony halls etc. but each of these is upwards of 5-10 thousand dollars. Then Sennheiser made a less cost dummy head and pressure omni capsules combo in the 1,500 dollar range. Core Sound makes their three binaural offerings, each of which gets excellent reviews by their users. My old company, Sonic Research Associates, owned a JVC dummy head which I have attached a picture of as well as a stock photo of the Sennheiser mke 2002's

edit1: ## gutbucket caught my error. Here is a more pedestrian description of the differences between pressure and pressure gradient capsules:
Quote
The microphones had to be pressure-type microphones as opposed to pressure-gradient types that have directional (cardioid, hypercardioid, figure-eight, etc.) polar patterns. Pressure type mics are naturally omnidirectional and, like our eardrums, receive sound from only one side of the "diaphragm".
« Last Edit: July 29, 2020, 01:18:26 PM by rocksuitcase »
music IS love

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Offline BradleyJY15

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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2020, 01:00:33 PM »
I have used all of Len's binaural mics: low end, reg, high end.  He has great stuff, and it is all adapted to plug into a recorder and go. Great sound.

(We've been manufacturing binaural microphones for 30 years. We're the originator of the clip-on binaural microphones for concert taping.)

If you're recording for yourself and want to capture the concert experience very well for playback over headphones, recording with a pair of high quality microphones mounted near your ears is the way to go.

Since you're using your ears, and everyone elses ears are different, the recording you'll make will sound best for you. Others will hear it differently.

The difference between a binaural mic set and good pair of mics in or near your ears is the degree to which the microphones are matched, in both frequency response and sensitivity.

About price: We offer three levels of binaural mic sets, starting at $85 for our Low Cost Binaural microphone set, up to over $1000 for the High End Binaural microphone set using DPA capsules.

www.core-sound.com
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Offline rocksuitcase

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music IS love

When you get confused, listen to the music play!

Mics:         AKG460|CK61|CK1|CK3|CK8|Beyer M 201E|DPA 4060 SK
Recorders:Marantz PMD661 OADE Concert mod; Tascam DR680 MKI

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2020, 01:10:50 PM »
pressure gradient "omnis"
 
^Technical correction.

Pressure component = monopolar (omnidirectional). Pressure gradient component = dipolar (figure-8). Directional pickup pattern microphones are generally derived from a combination of those two basic components within a single design.   Directionality imparted by baffles such as head mounting is a further complication to all that, yet the part most useful to discuss around here.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline heva

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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2020, 02:37:07 PM »
Have a look here: https://store.lom.audio/products/mikrousi?variant=6174830002208

My set, ripped a sports headset and put the LOM’s in it.
Use it with FR2le. Sound is awesome.

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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2020, 02:42:23 PM »
I'm chiming in although I need to come back and edit more.
Rob, there is such a  thing as a "proper binaural" set of microphones. I wish Len had gone a bit more in detail (about the mic design itself) as he knows more about this than my psychoacoustic former hydrophone designer self. True Binaural technique uses capsules which are pressure "omnis" ## which are aimed upward into the ear canal, typically using a dummy head, but can be used on your own head.

Did I go too far when I said "binaural microphone" is a bit of a misonmer?  I'm certainly no expert, and I'd defer to those of you with more knowledge on the subject than I have (which is, let's be honest, pretty much everyone in this thread other than me).
Mics: AT4050ST | AT4031 | AT853 (C/SC) | Line Audio CM3 | Sennheiser e614 | Sennheiser MKE2 | DPA 4061 | CA-14 omni Pres: CA9200 | DPA d:vice Decks: Zoom F8 | Roland R-05

Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2020, 03:03:15 PM »
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Lucas- No, I just wanted to point out some designs are true binaural, but it more of a product thing than a design thing. There truly IS NOT one microphone CAPSULE which makes a set-up binaural, it is the whole rig:
1] using pressure capsules where one end is closed
2]  enabling them to be placed inside real or dummy ears and aimed upward into the pinnaae
3] recording into two channels with no external EQ etc.

In fact, to me, often it is playback methods which determine how well one enjoys their binaural recordings. Until I got decent headphones a few years ago I did not truly get as much out of the old binaural recordings as I knew were there. playback over speakers can have varied results.

heva- +T, that looks like a great set up!   ;D >:D
« Last Edit: July 29, 2020, 06:06:02 PM by rocksuitcase »
music IS love

When you get confused, listen to the music play!

Mics:         AKG460|CK61|CK1|CK3|CK8|Beyer M 201E|DPA 4060 SK
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Offline heva

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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2020, 03:24:18 PM »
heva- +T, that looks alike a great set up!   ;D >:D

Could be worse, check HERE (GS).

Offline RobBain

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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2020, 04:02:35 PM »
Thanks heva (and to all the others who took the time to reply).  Some great stuff in here!  Much appreciated.

I kept looking at Sennheiser's AMBEO Smart Headset.  The price point means that it could be bought just for fun.  But I was put off by the lightning connector.  Seemed a bit 'cheesy'.  Having read the posts, I'll save my money, wait until my mikroUSI's (eventually!) turn up and play/learn with those.

To be fair to LOM they've been very apologetic about my 5 week delay, pointing (I think fairly) to the reduced airfreight movements we currently have in Europe.  I still feel like a kid waiting for Christmas, though!

Thanks again,

Rob

Have a look here: https://store.lom.audio/products/mikrousi?variant=6174830002208

My set, ripped a sports headset and put the LOM’s in it.
Use it with FR2le. Sound is awesome.
Sony PCM-A10 | Sennheiser MKE 600 / LOM mikroUsi's / Clippy EM172s

Online heathen

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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2020, 04:16:55 PM »
Thanks heva (and to all the others who took the time to reply).  Some great stuff in here!  Much appreciated.

I kept looking at Sennheiser's AMBEO Smart Headset.  The price point means that it could be bought just for fun.  But I was put off by the lightning connector.  Seemed a bit 'cheesy'.  Having read the posts, I'll save my money, wait until my mikroUSI's (eventually!) turn up and play/learn with those.

To be fair to LOM they've been very apologetic about my 5 week delay, pointing (I think fairly) to the reduced airfreight movements we currently have in Europe.  I still feel like a kid waiting for Christmas, though!

Thanks again,

Rob

Something that just occurred to me is if you're at all DIY-inclined there were Sennheiser MKE2 mics that could be salvaged from some GoPro mic thing.  The GoPro things were getting sold super cheap, but I'm not sure if that deal is still out there.  I think it was $20 per mic.  I have no idea what shipping to Europe would be, but I've got extras and would sell you a pair for what I paid + actual shipping cost to you.  Shoot me a PM if you're interested.

Here's a thread about them: https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=189272.0
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Offline Len Moskowitz (Core Sound)

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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #20 on: July 29, 2020, 07:37:02 PM »
The Gearslutz thread has errors. It conflates binaural recording for measurement and binaural recording for playback. Take it with a grain of salt.

---

One important thing to note is that if you're planning on playing back over on-ear headphones, you do not want to record at the eardrum. In that case, ideally you want to record at the entrance to a blocked ear canal. That way the microphone picks up the influence of the outer ear but doesn't hear the resonances of the ear canal.

A simple way to do that is to build the microphones into a silicone ear mold. The ear mold can be made by your local audiologist or use the kits from Decibullz or Radians.

If you mount the microphone near the entrance to the ear canal but slightly above or in front of it, the resonance of the ear canal can be neglected. That's how our clip-on binaural mic set are intended to be used. They sit in the shadow of the pinna, but not exactly at the ear canal entrance. Or, as I mentioned, you can build the High End Binaural capsules (DPA 4060-series) into custom ear molds.

---

If you record at the ear drum and play back at the entrance to the ear, you'll have to subtract out the ear canal response. That's not easy to do.

It makes sense to record at the ear drum only if you are doing measurements or are playing back using an in-ear phone that sits at the end of the ear canal, right next to the ear drum. Otherwise it's a bad idea.

---

Dummy heads have a single HRTF. The dummy's HRTF is literally wrong for everyone. If your personal HRTF is close to the dummy head's HRTF, you'll get a good effect. Otherwise you'll have serious problems distinguishing front from rear, and you'll have poor elevation (vertical) cues.

---

Hooke Audio's Verse is a low cost binaural recording solution. It has a pair of microphones built into in-ear phones. It records reliably via Bluetooth to smartphones. Other than having a relatively high self-noise spec, it's a good set of microphones for concert taping. I see three sets on eBay at the moment.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2020, 08:07:50 PM by Len Moskowitz (Core Sound) »
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Offline beatkilla

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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #21 on: July 29, 2020, 08:09:52 PM »
I have an awesome set that meets your needs here.

https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=190764.0


Offline RobBain

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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #22 on: July 30, 2020, 02:19:13 PM »
Hi all

I have just stumbled upon the 'Croakie' option (on this forum) so before doing/buying anything else I'll try that will my LOMs first - and see how I get on.

Again, thanks for all the great info provided in response to my original question.

Case closed (for now!).

Regards,

Rob

Thanks heva (and to all the others who took the time to reply).  Some great stuff in here!  Much appreciated.

I kept looking at Sennheiser's AMBEO Smart Headset.  The price point means that it could be bought just for fun.  But I was put off by the lightning connector.  Seemed a bit 'cheesy'.  Having read the posts, I'll save my money, wait until my mikroUSI's (eventually!) turn up and play/learn with those.

To be fair to LOM they've been very apologetic about my 5 week delay, pointing (I think fairly) to the reduced airfreight movements we currently have in Europe.  I still feel like a kid waiting for Christmas, though!

Thanks again,

Rob

Have a look here: https://store.lom.audio/products/mikrousi?variant=6174830002208

My set, ripped a sports headset and put the LOM’s in it.
Use it with FR2le. Sound is awesome.
Sony PCM-A10 | Sennheiser MKE 600 / LOM mikroUsi's / Clippy EM172s

Offline illconditioned

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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #23 on: July 30, 2020, 07:47:45 PM »
Have a look here: https://store.lom.audio/products/mikrousi?variant=6174830002208

My set, ripped a sports headset and put the LOM’s in it.
Use it with FR2le. Sound is awesome.
Great hacking !!

Please DO NOT mail me with tech questions.  I will try to answer in the forums when I get a chance.  Thanks.

Sample recordings at: http://www.soundmann.com.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #24 on: July 31, 2020, 08:48:49 AM »
Just wanted to thank B9audio and Rocksuitcase for the links to their binaural recordings posted above.  Very much enjoyed some headphone listening last night through a new USB DAC/headphone amp I recently picked up in the yardsale.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Len Moskowitz (Core Sound)

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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #25 on: July 31, 2020, 01:26:02 PM »
If you go to dimeadozen.org and type in the following search string, you'll see over 900 recordings made with our Core Sound Binaural and High End Binaural microphone sets. (There are actually many more there, but they're not searchable in that way.)

Type this in the "search" box: csb heb "core sound binaural" "coresound binaural" coresound "core sound"

Archive.org's Live Music Archive has a few hundred more.

---

You can see lots and lots of taper comments about our Core Sound Binaural Microphone Set here:

https://www.core-sound.com/mics/12.php

See taper comments about our High End Binaural Microphone Set (using DPA capsules) here:

https://www.core-sound.com/bk/10.php

And for the Low Cost Binaural Microphone Set:

https://www.core-sound.com/lcmics/11.php
« Last Edit: August 02, 2020, 09:56:20 AM by Len Moskowitz (Core Sound) »
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Offline lerond

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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #26 on: August 01, 2020, 04:44:37 AM »
The DPA d:vice connects directly to Iphone (unfortunately not Andrioid compatible) for use with their microphones.  It represents one of the most top quality (and very compact) setups currently available, applicable but not limited to HTRF type recording.

I've used the DPA d:vice with both Pixel3 and Nexus6 android phones.
Works fine in situations where I'm worried about carrying much more than a phone.
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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #27 on: August 01, 2020, 01:58:14 PM »
^ That's good to know. Is there a DPA android app, and can I ask what recording app have you've been using?
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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #28 on: August 01, 2020, 04:01:05 PM »
there is not a DPA android app

all the app really does is select mono/dual mono/stereo, and HPF

there are a few apps android users have been using sucessfully that are mentioned in the thread

https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=181868.0
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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #29 on: August 01, 2020, 04:16:14 PM »
Thanks, must have overlooked those in that thread.  I don't currently own an android phone/tablet so wasn't sure. 
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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #30 on: August 01, 2020, 04:20:03 PM »
there are some impossibly small android phones that make an iphone SE look enormous by comparison
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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #31 on: August 03, 2020, 04:09:50 PM »
Good news! I was unaware of that.

Now just need to figure out how to use 3 or 4 d:vice into a single phone
(Not interested in trying to do it using multiple syn'c phones)
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #32 on: August 03, 2020, 06:22:18 PM »
Good news! I was unaware of that.

Now just need to figure out how to use 3 or 4 d:vice into a single phone
(Not interested in trying to do it using multiple syn'c phones)

according to dpa 2 d:vices are a no-go on a single usb due to power draw. true for lightning at least, not sure if all usb-c phones have the same limitations

a microPC with multiple USB busses would likely work just fine
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #33 on: August 03, 2020, 08:40:48 PM »
Yeah, my general concept is to incorporate the guts of several d:vices along with a battery to power them into a single external USB battery case.  Multiple mics terminated to a USB style plug into a secondary converted USB port on the external.  Phone + "external USB battery" = easy in..  even with my crazy 6 to 8 channel surround arrays.

A dream tantalizingly just out of reach.  A micro PC that can pass as a phone seems a further reach to me, but I'd love to be wrong about that.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #34 on: August 03, 2020, 09:41:26 PM »
as far as the load goes the mics are next to nothing

the AKM AK5552VN adc chip they use sips power. it’s like half the power consumption of others in the series at only a very slight SN penalty. seems like an obvious design choice

i can’t speak to the power consumption of the (analog) gain circuit they use, though i’ll bet it’s significant relative to digital gain stages
« Last Edit: August 06, 2020, 02:28:21 PM by jerryfreak »
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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #35 on: August 23, 2020, 04:48:43 PM »
Sennheiser have discontinued the Ambeo Headset which is now sold off at a fraction of the initial price by various sources. Bought two of them, one black one white, and wish I had more time to play with them and post some results. 

Ralf
Photography and industrial audioscapes from Western Europe. - Sound examples: http://aporee.org/maps/projects/fotoralf - Blog (German): http://the-real-fotoralf.blogspot.com

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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #36 on: August 23, 2020, 07:21:08 PM »
Sennheiser have discontinued the Ambeo Headset which is now sold off at a fraction of the initial price by various sources. Bought two of them, one black one white, and wish I had more time to play with them and post some results. 

Ralf

IMO they are worth picking up. Especially if you are an i-Phone user. They certainly don't sound top notch, but for shows where you don't want to put much effort into and just want a listenable copy of the show they are great.
||| MICS:  Beyer CK930 ~ DPA 4022 ~ DPA 4080 ~ Nevaton MCE400 ~ Countryman B3 ~ Sennheiser Ambeo Headset |||
||| PREAMPS: DPA d:vice | Naiant Tinybox | Naiant Littlebox | Naiant IPA | Church BB |||
||| DECKS: Sound Devices MixPre6 | Sony M10 | Sony A10 | iPod Touch 32GB |||
|||Concert History || LMA Recordings || Live YouTube |||

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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #37 on: August 23, 2020, 08:17:20 PM »
Sennheiser have discontinued the Ambeo Headset which is now sold off at a fraction of the initial price by various sources.

can you link it? id buy one for $100 or so
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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #38 on: August 23, 2020, 08:55:09 PM »
$79 on Woot. Should be in every tapers toolbox at that price.

https://www.iwoot.us/electronics/earphones-headphones/sennheiser-ambeo-smart-headset-black/12660076.html?affil=thggpsad&switchcurrency=USD&shippingcountry=US&gclid=Cj0KCQjwp4j6BRCRARIsAGq4yMGMi6KRaNS8HYu9p0xm7fHqRT_jIthdWDzKs_787ID36YVVa7xCMy0aArsPEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

Here's a recording made with them. This was my first time at this venue. I think I should have been back a bit farther, but it's still a decent recording.

https://youtu.be/X3sHVgTBhOQ
||| MICS:  Beyer CK930 ~ DPA 4022 ~ DPA 4080 ~ Nevaton MCE400 ~ Countryman B3 ~ Sennheiser Ambeo Headset |||
||| PREAMPS: DPA d:vice | Naiant Tinybox | Naiant Littlebox | Naiant IPA | Church BB |||
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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #39 on: August 24, 2020, 12:04:28 AM »
nice. a steal for $80

i measured the voltage on the ambeo breakout box in hopes that 4061s or 4063s could be retrofitted but its just a hair over 2V to the mics
« Last Edit: August 24, 2020, 11:23:54 PM by jerryfreak »
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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #40 on: August 24, 2020, 02:06:49 AM »
Thanks for the link Ralph and Mike B!  Ordered a pair.  Hard not to at that price.    ;D
« Last Edit: August 24, 2020, 02:25:39 AM by MIQ »

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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #41 on: August 24, 2020, 03:38:17 AM »
Thanks for the link Ralph and Mike B!  Ordered a pair.  Hard not to at that price.    ;D
its ideal

setup any buddy with an iphone as a backup. theyre actually not awful as headphones, and when used binaurally, they can be adjusted to attentuate and act like electronic earplugs (tho they still distort at relatively low volumes)

heres a charlie hunter show i ran with ambeos one set and 4061>dvice for another. see if you can guess which one

https://tinyurl.com/cht-tahoe

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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #42 on: August 24, 2020, 10:47:38 PM »
Thanks for the link Ralph and Mike B!  Ordered a pair.  Hard not to at that price.    ;D

I’ll second that, as an iPhone user at that price just had to grab a set before they dry up. Appreciate the link!
Mics: AKG CK91/CK94/CK98/SE300 D-330BT | DPA 4060 4061 4266 | Neumann TLM 103 | Senn ME66/K6/K6RD MKE2 MD421 MD431 | Shure VP88 SM7B SM63L SM58 Anniversary Cables: Gotham GAC-4/1 Quad w/Neutrik EMC | Gotham GAC-2pair w/AKG MK90/3 connectors | DigiGal AES>S/PDIF cable Preamp: SD MixPre-D Recorders: SD MixPre 6 | Marantz PMD 661 Edit: 2011 27" 3.4GHz Quad i7 iMac High Sierra | 2020 13" MBA Quad i7 Catalina | Wave Editor | xACT | Transmission | FCP X 

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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #43 on: August 25, 2020, 12:18:02 AM »
sup with this site?

ordered > they cancelled and they deleted my login

registered new acct> ordered again > they cancelled both order and deleted account again
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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #44 on: August 25, 2020, 12:32:06 AM »

heres a charlie hunter show i ran with ambeos one set and 4061>dvice for another. see if you can guess which one

https://tinyurl.com/cht-tahoe

Thanks!  Both sets sound fantastic over my Shure headphones.  I love me some Charlie!!  I definitely feel like part of the audience in "Can't Let Go".  Glad to hear how nice these Senn Ambeos can sound.  Thank you for sharing this!!

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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #45 on: August 25, 2020, 08:23:42 AM »
sup with this site?

ordered > they cancelled and they deleted my login

registered new acct> ordered again > they cancelled both order and deleted account again

Great, my cc company called to confirm the transaction. Hopefully just because it’s a UK purchase and not a fraud.  :shrug:
Mics: AKG CK91/CK94/CK98/SE300 D-330BT | DPA 4060 4061 4266 | Neumann TLM 103 | Senn ME66/K6/K6RD MKE2 MD421 MD431 | Shure VP88 SM7B SM63L SM58 Anniversary Cables: Gotham GAC-4/1 Quad w/Neutrik EMC | Gotham GAC-2pair w/AKG MK90/3 connectors | DigiGal AES>S/PDIF cable Preamp: SD MixPre-D Recorders: SD MixPre 6 | Marantz PMD 661 Edit: 2011 27" 3.4GHz Quad i7 iMac High Sierra | 2020 13" MBA Quad i7 Catalina | Wave Editor | xACT | Transmission | FCP X 

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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #46 on: August 25, 2020, 11:03:03 PM »
I received mine today.  Can't wait to use them.  Haven't opened the Senn packaging yet but it looks legit to me. :coolguy:

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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #47 on: August 26, 2020, 12:51:46 AM »
Started playing with the Ambeo mics tonight.  I used the iPhone video recorder and the Apogee Metarecorder app to make some test recordings.  Easy to get connected and worked very well.  The Apogee app will take some getting more familiar with but the WAV files sound nice so far.   :cheers:

Jerryfreak what app did you use for the Charlie Hunter recording you shared?

It is certainly more compact than the homemade JLI capsule mics>>homemade battery box>>R09HR I've been using and a lot slicker with the "hear through" capabilities of the headphones and iPhone interface. 
« Last Edit: August 26, 2020, 01:00:34 AM by MIQ »

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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #48 on: August 26, 2020, 12:55:59 AM »
metarecorder

though the ambeo provides a digital signal and its an ios native device so any recorder like rode or voicerecorderpro should work fine

i personally like the metarecorder interface

if recording at high bitrate use .CAF so you dont get cut off at 4GB
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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #49 on: August 26, 2020, 01:05:25 AM »
if recording at high bitrate use .CAF so you dont get cut off at 4GB

Thanks for that!

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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #50 on: August 28, 2020, 10:54:51 PM »
Mine arrived yesterday, looking forward to experimenting with it. Very handy purse carry along with the iPhone already carried can make it readily available practically anytime.
Mics: AKG CK91/CK94/CK98/SE300 D-330BT | DPA 4060 4061 4266 | Neumann TLM 103 | Senn ME66/K6/K6RD MKE2 MD421 MD431 | Shure VP88 SM7B SM63L SM58 Anniversary Cables: Gotham GAC-4/1 Quad w/Neutrik EMC | Gotham GAC-2pair w/AKG MK90/3 connectors | DigiGal AES>S/PDIF cable Preamp: SD MixPre-D Recorders: SD MixPre 6 | Marantz PMD 661 Edit: 2011 27" 3.4GHz Quad i7 iMac High Sierra | 2020 13" MBA Quad i7 Catalina | Wave Editor | xACT | Transmission | FCP X 

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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #51 on: August 29, 2020, 08:47:31 AM »
Anyone who wants to try binaural recording for the first time without breaking the bank? Try these for size:

https://www.thomann.de/gb/roland_wear_pro.htm

They're on sale at Thomann. The original price was well over 100 euros. Originally meant to be worn in your ears, they come with foams against wind noise and small crocodile clamps to attach them to your clothing etc.

Simply cut off the USB-type connector (it isn't a digital interface anyway) and mount a 1/8" stereo jack plug (yellow wire to the tip, red to the ring and screen to the sleeve) instead, connect it to any recorder with plug-in power and there you go.

I've wrapped a pair of them in faux fur and it's now dangling in front of my street-side window, so I can start a recording whenever there's something of interest going on outside - all this without risking any expensive equipment.

Here's a few examples:

Street atmosphere with covidiots protesting half a block away:
http://www.fotoralf.de/audio/covidioten.mp3

The same scene on a calmer Sunday morning:
http://www.fotoralf.de/audio/sonntag.mp3

...and the only goal in the Champions Leage finals, last week:
http://www.fotoralf.be/audio/Tooor.mp3

If you're worried about their slightly higher noise level then just don't try to record the grass growing. Otherwise they're the greatest fun to be had for under ten quid. And no, I have no idea how they'll behave at Death Metal concerts or next to nuclear blasts. ;-)


Ralf

Photography and industrial audioscapes from Western Europe. - Sound examples: http://aporee.org/maps/projects/fotoralf - Blog (German): http://the-real-fotoralf.blogspot.com

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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #52 on: August 29, 2020, 08:50:58 AM »
how do they handle loud sounds?
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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #53 on: August 29, 2020, 08:59:02 AM »
how do they handle loud sounds?

How come I knew you'd ask this? Well, once more, especially for you...

Quote
And no, I have no idea how they'll behave at Death Metal concerts or next to nuclear blasts.

All I can say is that they do cope with the sirens of police cars and ambulances passing below said window at a distance of some 10 feet.

Ralf
« Last Edit: August 29, 2020, 09:01:25 AM by fotoralf.be »
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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #54 on: August 29, 2020, 09:02:16 AM »
sorry i missed that last line!
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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #55 on: September 03, 2020, 03:26:02 PM »
More Sennheiser Ambeo Headsets on ebay Germany, new for 49.99 euros...

Ralf
Photography and industrial audioscapes from Western Europe. - Sound examples: http://aporee.org/maps/projects/fotoralf - Blog (German): http://the-real-fotoralf.blogspot.com

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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #56 on: September 12, 2020, 11:09:20 AM »
Just wanted to chime in on the general discussion about Binaural - I'm transferring DATs that have been long stored for another taper and in those tapes is a 1996 David Murray Octet show from Yoshi's in Oakland promoting the album Dark Star: Music of the Grateful Dead. The taper used Sonic Studios DSM6 into a Sony D7 and it sounds unbelievable. Playback through my 2.1 desk monitor setup or Beyer DT880 cans is present, clear and immersive.

Binaural doesn't work for every situation but when it does work it's remarkable. I guess those who quibble might call this HRTF. Either way it's a smoking tape.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2020, 11:11:38 AM by goodcooker »
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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #57 on: September 12, 2020, 02:25:50 PM »
^ Would love to take a gander if possible!
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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #58 on: September 12, 2020, 02:29:01 PM »
Just wanted to chime in on the general discussion about Binaural - I'm transferring DATs that have been long stored for another taper and in those tapes is a 1996 David Murray Octet show from Yoshi's in Oakland promoting the album Dark Star: Music of the Grateful Dead. The taper used Sonic Studios DSM6 into a Sony D7 and it sounds unbelievable. Playback through my 2.1 desk monitor setup or Beyer DT880 cans is present, clear and immersive.

Binaural doesn't work for every situation but when it does work it's remarkable. I guess those who quibble might call this HRTF. Either way it's a smoking tape.

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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #59 on: September 13, 2020, 03:53:34 AM »
Just wanted to chime in on the general discussion about Binaural - I'm transferring DATs that have been long stored for another taper and in those tapes is a 1996 David Murray Octet show from Yoshi's in Oakland promoting the album Dark Star: Music of the Grateful Dead. The taper used Sonic Studios DSM6 into a Sony D7 and it sounds unbelievable. Playback through my 2.1 desk monitor setup or Beyer DT880 cans is present, clear and immersive.

Binaural doesn't work for every situation but when it does work it's remarkable. I guess those who quibble might call this HRTF. Either way it's a smoking tape.

location is everything!
Totally True. I had a good taping buddy who moved to Oregon and worked for Leonard at Sonic Studios. about 1992/3 they moved to Oregon. after then a few of us had pairs of DSM3's then a DSM6 pair was owned by one of us. If you had good location and a good PA those tapes (almost all into DAT) can be very sweet.
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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #60 on: April 06, 2021, 02:28:28 AM »
Found this brief but nicely differentiating basic gem regarding microphone patterns.
https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/stereo-mic-techniques/

Of particular interest to me as we've done a small amount of 90 degree crossed figure 8's was this:
Quote
4. Blumlein Stereo

In a way, Blumlein stereo (named after Alan Blumlein) is a lot like XY, only with greater stereo separation and potentially better room ambience. This setup uses two figure-8 microphones positioned so that the elements cross at right angles and as close to one another as possible. Because the figure-8 polar pattern offers complete off-axis (side) rejection, these mics pick up an almost completely isolated (coincident) stereo field.

music IS love

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Offline kuba e

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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #61 on: April 06, 2021, 04:17:28 AM »
I also like blumlein recordings. I once read somewhere that blumlein sounds unique because fig.8 has half the polar pattern negative. Then the blumlein records the sounds coming from the front in phase (++). The sounds from behind are in a flipped phase (--). And the sounds from the side are in opposite phase(+-). I added phases to the picture.

Unfortunately, I do not own fig. 8. But I use pair of hypercardiods and they are at least a bit similar to fig.8. They have small negative lobe. Sometimes I tried to choose a smaller angle with the coincident hypercardiods and add a side in Mid/Side in post. Then it could be even more similar to the blumlein.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2021, 04:20:56 AM by kuba e »

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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #62 on: April 06, 2021, 12:10:38 PM »
Quote
4. Blumlein Stereo

In a way, Blumlein stereo (named after Alan Blumlein) is a lot like XY, only with greater stereo separation and potentially better room ambience. This setup uses two figure-8 microphones positioned so that the elements cross at right angles and as close to one another as possible. Because the figure-8 polar pattern offers complete off-axis (side) rejection, these mics pick up an almost completely isolated (coincident) stereo field.

Well Blumlien is X/Y, just using fig-8s, even if Alan actually arranged his fig-8s in M/S.  But that's just picking nits (The better term for of describing that entire family of arrangements is coincident , thus differentiating them from near-spaced and wide-spaced arrangements in regards to what differences matter most)

What I feel compelled to disagree with is both halves of the last statement:

Fig-8's do not provide "complete off-axis rejection", but are exactly as sensitive to sound arriving from in back as from the front.  Nor do they offer anything like "complete side" rejection. They do provide reduced pickup to the side quadrants in comparison to the primary front/back axis, however the back half of a cardioid or supercard picks up significantly less than the side of a fig-8.  Blumlein does offer good off-axis rejection directly up and down, but I don't think that's what they're referring to.

"Completely isolated (coincident) stereo field" seems especially misleading.  No first order microphone pair can achieve that and Blumlein has is equal sensitivity across all horizontal directions, making it one of the least isolated configurations second only to omnis or something like back to back cardioids.  The imaging across the front quadrant (and of the back quadrant super-imposed on the front) is very precise if that's what they mean, but that is based in a particularly evenhanded "stereo bleed" hand-off between channels (rather than isolation between them) that is in essence identical to hand-off between the stereo channels of a stereo pan-pot.  The same amount of "bleed" happens between the front and side quadrants, and between the side and back quadrants.  Its not "isolated" at all really in any sense, except directly along the exceptionally narrow null-planes, which are generally much narrower than many folks imagine them to be.

Heading outside to shake my fist at a cloud now!  ;)

I guess I should actually follow the link to see what else they have to say now that I feel better.

I really like 8's but am with kuba e on generally preferring crossed hypercardioids to Blumlein most of the time for taping, sometimes with a smaller angle (applies to Blumlien fig-8s too), and like to do some M/S tweaking afterward to really tune it in either way.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2021, 12:13:17 PM by Gutbucket »
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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #63 on: April 06, 2021, 01:41:25 PM »
Quote
4. Blumlein Stereo

In a way, Blumlein stereo (named after Alan Blumlein) is a lot like XY, only with greater stereo separation and potentially better room ambience. This setup uses two figure-8 microphones positioned so that the elements cross at right angles and as close to one another as possible. Because the figure-8 polar pattern offers complete off-axis (side) rejection, these mics pick up an almost completely isolated (coincident) stereo field.

Well Blumlien is X/Y, just using fig-8s, even if Alan actually arranged his fig-8s in M/S.  But that's just picking nits (The better term for of describing that entire family of arrangements is coincident , thus differentiating them from near-spaced and wide-spaced arrangements in regards to what differences matter most)

What I feel compelled to disagree with is both halves of the last statement:

Fig-8's do not provide "complete off-axis rejection", but are exactly as sensitive to sound arriving from in back as from the front. Nor do they offer anything like "complete side" rejection. They do provide reduced pickup to the side quadrants in comparison to the primary front/back axis, however the back half of a cardioid or supercard picks up significantly less than the side of a fig-8.  Blumlein does offer good off-axis rejection directly up and down, but I don't think that's what they're referring to.
LOL, I didn't read it closely enough to"nitpick" but I see your points and raise you this: Only discussing the off-axis part:
The Sweetwater description is very, "pedestrian" or basic. To err in their favor, MAYBE they meant a PAIR of COINCIDENT figure 8's would have side rejection due to the pattern, not the individual mic. but again, they specifically say "A fig-8", sooooooooooo     score gutbucket if you're keeping score!

What I know from listening to those recordings where we used 90' coincident fig 8's with an AKG c422, or 414 XLS's or kindms' c426 the front to back ratio is easily heard and I would assume to mathematically characterize. The location where the pattern sounds the best live stage wise is less than 20 feet from stage, preferably 10-15 feet from the onstage amps, and of course, vocals which may come from a PA can get lost this way. But often the instruments sound as if you were using a DI box out of a soundboard.
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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #64 on: April 06, 2021, 05:43:07 PM »
I assume they mean a single 8 and are misrepresenting "off-axis" as somehow not including response from the rear.  Technically that could be construed as correct in regards to a single bi-directional microphone (hence the "bi" label), but not with regards to the sensitivity of a Blumlein pair, because if they do mean a pair there is zero rejection to sounds arriving from the sides and that's a long way from "complete"!

I think it's poor wording, confusing various aspects of a single mic with a pair, and lack of a good (any?) editor who knows better reading for content.  Unfortunately that's typical of most explanations of stereo configurations found on the interwebs.  Most of them go on to claim the 3-1 ratio applies to spaced pair stereo mic'ing.  It not only doesn't, its geometrically impossible to apply it to that situation!  As Chuck Berry says, Roll over Pythagoras and tell Tchaikovsky the news.

Thanks for playing along and apologies for flogging a dead horse with my personal pet peeve for clarity on these things!  I don't care much about keeping score, but I do relish the participation ribbon.

What I know from listening to those recordings where we used 90' coincident fig 8's with an AKG c422, or 414 XLS's or kindms' c426 the front to back ratio is easily heard and I would assume to mathematically characterize. The location where the pattern sounds the best live stage wise is less than 20 feet from stage, preferably 10-15 feet from the onstage amps, and of course, vocals which may come from a PA can get lost this way. But often the instruments sound as if you were using a DI box out of a soundboard.

I find the same with regards to recording position with Blumlien, and with respect to the rather direct sounding quality that can be achieved from instruments in the front quadrant (probably due to reduced pickup of early reflections in the same channel as a result of the relatively narrow front lobes - not the same as the side rejection of the stereo pair collectively), while still retaining good depth and "air" from the back lobes. 

An arrangement which I think would work much better than Blumlien for tapers from further back, which I've thought about and mentioned here before but have never tried, is a near-spaced pair of 8's using an inclusive angle of less than a 90 degrees - increasing spacing to compensate for less inclusive angle as it is made smaller.  In that case the configuration actually does begin to achieve increased side-rejection as a pair as the inclusive angle is made smaller.  Combined with what you note about apparent direct clarity I think that could work really well Pointed At Stacks from further back.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2021, 09:18:58 AM by Gutbucket »
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Offline kuba e

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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #65 on: April 07, 2021, 08:01:39 AM »
Thanks to Gutbucket and Rocksuitcase for clarification. I read it too, but I didn't understand it, so I skipped it. It's a good thing you corrected it.

Thanks for your ideas about recording with fig.8. It's a good inspiration to think about. E.g. that fig.8 is the narrowest classic pattern, although it is not visible at first glance from the graphics. I understand that rear lobes are a disadvantage in many cases. If I think correctly about it, pair of fig.8 could be used wherever we use omni as the main pair. The bleed from the rear lobes will not be harmful in these cases. And compared to other patterns, a pair of fig 8 will create a nice stereo image for sounds from the back and an interesting stereo image for the sides with the opposite phase.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2021, 10:34:23 AM by kuba e »

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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #66 on: April 07, 2021, 11:17:18 AM »
I don't consider rear lobes disadvantageous necessarily, they are simply a part of what makes first order patterns what they are, and can be advantageous depending on how they are used.   I find a solitary fig-8 tends to sound a bit more open than many super/hypercardioids, and suspect the rear lobe pickup may responsible for that, maybe its generally better off-axis response behavior.  The main things I consider disadvantageous with 8's are their greater susceptibility to handling and wind noise, and their inherent dipole roll-off that reduces sensitivity at low frequencies.

If I think correctly about it, pair of fig.8 could be used wherever we use omni as the main pair.
Sure, in terms of a stereo pair any pattern can be substituted in place of a pair of spaced omnis, as it's the spacing not the pattern that is the basis upon which a wide-spaced configuration works.  The opposite is not true - a pair of omnis will not produce stereo if arranged in a coincident array.  However, often omnis are chosen because they have extended low frequency sensitivity in comparison to other patterns (they have no dipole roll-off, fig-8 has the most, and patterns in between have varying amounts). In this way they are the opposite of fig-8, and a pair of 8's would not make a suitable substitute.

For some applications it would certainly be useful to have a pattern the shape of just the front lobe alone.  Such a thing is actually possible with higher-order patterns, around 3rd order or so you get a pickup pattern that begins to approach something like that.  There are a few higher order microphones are now available, but they tend to be complex, costly, require a lot of recording channels and processing, and may produce audible artifacts that make some of them less than suitable for music recording.  There are a few threads discussing them.  Coresound's OctoMic is a 2nd order ambisonic microphone which requires 8 channels. The music samples I've heard recorded with it sound very good.  It it able to produce tighter patterns, but not something quite as tight as just the front-lobe of a 1st order fig-8.
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Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline kuba e

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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #67 on: April 07, 2021, 05:35:26 PM »
I thought of using omni and fig. 8 with respect to acoustics. Several times I made nice recordings with a pair of omni. It was always when the acoustic in the room was great. When the acoustic is worse, the hypercardiod or cardiod works better for me. I just guess that where a great recording with an omni comes out, there may be a nice recording with fig. 8. I don't know how fig.8 behaves in a bad acoustic space. I thought that due to the back lobe, it is not a suitable microphone for these cases, just as the omni is not suitable for it. But this can only be a misconception. I havn't hear the recording with near spaced fig.8 and I have heard only few with blumlein.

Yes, higher order patterns are very interesting. It is a pity that so far it is difficult to record so many channels. But that will change in the future. I could immediately compare it with a few clicks on the computer, as the pair of fig.8 and eg the pair of cardiod sounds. A few recordings would be enough and I could play with it all year.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2021, 06:33:30 AM by kuba e »

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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #68 on: April 07, 2021, 06:50:46 PM »
Depends on what makes the room bad.

A hypercardioid is the least sensitive pattern to reverberant sound arriving from all directions on average in comparison to its sensitivity on-axis, so that often makes it the best choice in an overly reverberant or otherwise bad room.  Check out the table below.  That particular attribute is the degree of ambient sound sensitivity

Notice that a cardioid and a figure-8 have the same distance factor and degree of ambient sound sensitivity.  They both pick up the same amount of diffuse reverberance in compared to sound arriving on-axis, yet pickup direct arriving sound from angles other than on-axis differently. 

If the problem is not so much too much diffuse reverberance, but something like a specific slap-echo off close sidewalls, or a noisy bar or trashcan left or right of the recording position, you can reduce senstivity in that direction if you can arrange things such that the bad reflections or specific problematic sound sources are somewhere around the direction of the angle of maximum rejection, while the PA or other source of interest remains more or less on-axis. So a figure 8 could work well if those things line up, as long as there is relatively benign reverb and ambiance coming from behind the recording position. Also the increased dipole rolloff a fig-8 increases the built-in high-pass filter effect, but of course that's baked-in and may be better applied later if at all.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #69 on: April 07, 2021, 07:23:16 PM »
I thought of using omni and fig. 8 with respect to acoustics. Several times I made nice recordings with a pair of omni. It was always when the acoustic in the room was great. When the acoustic is worse, the hypercardiod or cardiod works better for me. I just guess that where a great recording with an omni comes out, there may be a nice recording with fig. 8. I don't know how fig.8 behaves in a bad acoustic space. I thought that due to the back lobe, it is not a suitable microphone for these cases, just as the omni is not suitable for it. But this can only be a misconception. I didn't hear the recording with near spaced fig.8 and I heard only few with blumlein.

Yes, higher order patterns are very interesting. It is a pity that so far it is difficult to record so many channels. But that will change in the future. I could immediately compare it with a few clicks on the computer, as the pair of fig.8 and eg the pair of cardiod sounds. A few recordings would be enough and I could play with it all year.
I really like Blumlein, especially with a stereo ribbon mic.
It gives simultaneously input from all directions (sum of L+R = omni) and it still gives a spatial image.True, you have front/back ambiguity, but if you want the whole room, this is perfect.

Please DO NOT mail me with tech questions.  I will try to answer in the forums when I get a chance.  Thanks.

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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #70 on: April 07, 2021, 07:25:07 PM »
> Notice that a cardioid and a figure-8 have the same distance factor and degree of ambient sound sensitivity.  They both pick up the same amount of diffuse reverberance in compared to sound arriving on-axis, yet pickup direct arriving sound from angles other than on-axis differently.

And in situations where there's significant direct sound in front of the mike(s), direction of incidence is related to diffuseness and time of arrival. Sound arriving from farther off-axis will be more diffuse, and will arrive later than direct sound. Thus if the room is generally good-sounding, you can trade some of your pickup angle for a more spacious sound.

A smaller pickup angle also means (paradoxically for some people, but crucially) a wider stereo image in playback. Excessively wide pickup angles lead to mono-sounding recordings, a situation made much worse by the use of dual-diaphragm cardioids, since their pattern widens out in the bass, right where difference information between the channels is the most needed but the hardest to get in coincident or closely-spaced setups.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2021, 07:27:54 PM by DSatz »
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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #71 on: April 08, 2021, 07:06:59 AM »
Thank you all for the explanation. It's very kind of you. It's getting clear to me. It helped me better imagine. I can only write a small detail, the sum of two coincident fig. 8 is new fig.8. But I understand that Illcoditioned didn't mean to make mono from blumlein.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2021, 07:09:17 AM by kuba e »

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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #72 on: April 08, 2021, 09:35:58 AM »
^ And that is the essence of conversion between Left/Right and Mid/Side.  A Blumlien pair presents the most straight-forward example of this.  Sum the Left and Right fig-8 channels of a Blumlein pair and the result is equivalent of a single forward-facing fig-8 pattern, which is the Mid channel.  Differentially sum them (subtract them, by inverting polarity on one of them before summing) and the result is the equivalent of a single sideways-facing fig-8, which is the side channel.

If the angle between the two coincident fig-8 microphones is other than 90-degrees, conversion to Mid/Side will produce the same virtual forward and side-facing fig-8 patterns, but there will then be a level difference between them that corresponds with that change in angle.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #73 on: April 08, 2021, 10:09:17 AM »
OK, quickly blowing by the theory, which is well stated in this thread, in the field experience jibes with what is being said by dsatz and gutbucket. We ran the AKG c422 several times at "bi-directional" 110 degrees from about 40 feet from stacks in a large arena. very non stereo "mono" sounding. Typically back then (mid 1980's) we ran them at 90 degrees. We have run that mic and kindms' 426 at 60 degrees, almost a PAS for large venue PA's, MUCH better channel separation.
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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #74 on: April 21, 2021, 11:24:28 AM »
Hi

I did search before posting (but didn't find anything recent that addressed my questions).

1. Binaural recording - where do you stand?  Often use?  Sometimes use?  Niche offering?  Just for kicks?  Waste of time (why?)

2. Gear.  I'm put off by low-end products (I don't want to use my iPhone).  If I'm going to do this I want a 3.5mm connector.  I don't want to spend $$$s (no heads!).  Is there a sweet spot currently in the market?  I'm a quiet, ambient recordist (not a rock taper).

3. What's the difference between 'binaural' and simply positioning a good pair of mics in or near your ears?  Little difference?  Big difference (if so, why?)?

Many thanks in advance.

Regards,

Rob

It's a bit of a niche as far as live concert recording, but I think generally more accepted for your purposes.

Sound Professionals recently added these in-ears to their inventory. I can't speak for the sound quality (yet), but the high sensitivity and low noise seem ideal for more ambient material.

https://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/MS-TFB-2-MKII

And keep in mind, dummy heads don't have to be expensive. I'm all in for a dummy head and silicone molded ears for about $40 (ears are still en route).
« Last Edit: April 21, 2021, 02:24:34 PM by BonoBeats »
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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #75 on: April 21, 2021, 02:35:28 PM »
^
I had (still have somewhere I think) the TFB-2 predecessor to those, which came bundled with an Edirol R09 recorder I bought from Sound Professionals back in 2006.  They sounded natural and worked well as a simple and easy way to do some binaural ambiance recording.  I never really used them for recording music, except a few tests of additional mics used non-binarually as ambiance channels.  The primary problem I recall having with them was that they were not particularly well shielded and quite susceptible to EMI.  It appears from the description on the page linked above that the MKII version has significantly improved specifications, so perhaps the susceptibility to interference has been improved as well.



Edit- Note that in stating that the earlier-model TFB-2 binaural microphones "sounded natural" to me, that was in reference to a handful of binaural recordings I made, likely due in part to the fact that I was making those recordings with the mics placed in my own ears.  Be aware that this is one of the quirks of binaural recordings made with microphones placed inside the folds of the pina or outer ear near the entrance of the ear-canal. If you use your own ears to make the recording, it is more likely to sound natural to you, yet may not sound as natural to someone else who has significantly different shaped ears.  This is the influence of the shadowing, reflections and resonances imparted by the unique shapes of our outer ear structures and generally applies to all binaural recordings made in this way. However some ear-shapes and simplified ears on dummy heads may produce less "translation error" for listeners with differing ear shapes than others. 

This recording-ear/listener-ear influence is avoided on head-baffled recordings made with the microphones placed forward if the ear, or made with a dummy-head featuring simplified ears or no ears at all.  In that case the imaging may be less "wow, hyper-realistic" for those who's match is close, while being more generally correct overall for a wider range of listeners, and work better for playback over speakers.  The material being recorded can also make a difference.  Ambient binaural recordings that are more about emulating immersion in an audio environment, identification of the things in that environment and the 3-dimensional spatial imaging placement of them, may translate more easily to a wide range of listeners than music recordings which tend to lean more heavily on a perceptual awareness of correct tonality and timbre.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2021, 03:17:38 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline BonoBeats

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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #76 on: April 22, 2021, 10:36:41 AM »
The MKII is listed as having "premium" black cables, with unfortunately no other description. Hoping the shielding has improved, and it's not just marketing verbiage.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #77 on: April 22, 2021, 10:55:09 AM »
Yeah the cables on the earlier version were beige and very thin/lightweight, like the cables on cheap in-ear headphones.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline BonoBeats

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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #78 on: April 22, 2021, 08:42:58 PM »
Yeah the cables on the earlier version were beige and very thin/lightweight, like the cables on cheap in-ear headphones.

Just arrived.

These are similarly thin, compared to my Naiant XX. Surprisingly so; I have durability concerns, especially given their price.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2021, 08:48:52 PM by BonoBeats »
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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #79 on: April 22, 2021, 10:05:06 PM »


Verrrry thin, and ribbed for your pleasure..
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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #80 on: April 22, 2021, 10:13:16 PM »


Verrrry thin, and ribbed for your pleasure..

It feels just like I'm wearing nothing at all!!!!
Now You See Me Telefunken M60 Masters>MixPre6
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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #81 on: April 22, 2021, 10:15:13 PM »


Verrrry thin, and ribbed for your pleasure..

It feels just like I'm wearing nothing at all!!!!

 :spin: :zombie03: :lol: niiiiice
Proud member of the reality-based community

BSCS-L->JB-mod [NAK CM-300 (CP-3) and/or (CP-1)]->LSD2->CA CAFS-Omni->Sony ECM-907**Apogee MiniMe Rev. C->CA Ugly II->**Edirol OCM R-44->Tascam DR-22WL->Sony TCD-D8


"Don't ever take an all or nothing attitude when it comes to making a difference
and being beautiful and making the world a beautiful place through your actions.
Every little bit is registered.  Every little bit.  So be as beautiful as you can as often as you can"

"It'll never be over, 'till we learn."
 
"My dream is to get a bus and get the band and just go coast to coast. Just about everything else except music, is anti-musical.  That's it.  Music's the thing." - Jeb Puryear

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Re: Binaural Recording (latest thinking from tapers?)
« Reply #82 on: November 06, 2021, 11:33:22 AM »
Yeah the cables on the earlier version were beige and very thin/lightweight, like the cables on cheap in-ear headphones.

Just arrived.

These are similarly thin, compared to my Naiant XX. Surprisingly so; I have durability concerns, especially given their price.

Will these handle louder shows ok? I have an older set of the standard binaural mics from Sound Professionals and have been at risk of overloading them. The higher sensitivity of these concern me, but it also says it handles louder sound pressure levels.

 

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