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Author Topic: In a SBD/AUD matrix, what should the mics capture?  (Read 2039 times)

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Offline vantheman

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In a SBD/AUD matrix, what should the mics capture?
« on: September 13, 2021, 04:20:42 PM »
Hi all,

I have an opportunity to do my first SBD/AUD matrix coming up in November for a band that will be playing electric/amplified. I am aware that people mic to stage lip, etc, but I'm unclear on what exactly it is that I'm trying to capture so close to the stage. Just from going to shows forever I know that the monitors point toward the band, and stage lip or on-stage is way too close to be getting the stacks, so what am I getting up there? I can't get my head around what I'm capturing in what seems like a nether region in between monitors and stacks.

A followup question would be if I'm only using one pair of mics along with the soundboard feed, is it better to go coincident or spaced? I would have the option for either (most likely not both), either with my AT853s or my new CM4s. My gut says I'd probably want the CM4s to pick up more ambience. Thanks all.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2021, 04:25:41 PM by vantheman »
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Offline jefflester

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Re: In a SBD/AUD matrix, what should the mics capture?
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2021, 04:52:13 PM »
You're getting guitar/bass amplifiers pointing out towards the crowd at a level different (and likely higher) than what is coming through the PA. Depends a lot on the band and how big the venue is, but typically there is less guitar and bass going through the PA than you would like for a balanced SBD recording. The louder something is on stage, the less of it is going to be coming through the PA.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2021, 04:54:06 PM by jefflester »
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Offline morst

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Re: In a SBD/AUD matrix, what should the mics capture?
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2021, 05:19:23 PM »
Stage lip recordings capture the sound coming off the stage which is NOT coming from the PA system.
A loud band in a small club might only have vocal mics running through the PA speakers. A SBD patch from that system would only give vocals, so you'll want your mic pair to capture everything else.
Stage monitors aimed at the band provide the vocals they need in order to hear each other, but that sound doesn't cover the audience.
Knowing you'll be getting good vocals (for instance) from the SBD feed, you now have the option to position your mics "UNDER" the stage monitors to keep that vocal (mostly) out of your mic feed!
I have found it easier to mix stage lip recordings with a symmetrical setup, whether closely spaced, or split.
My personal rule of thumb is that the kick drum is probably going to be one of the loudest sounds on the stage, so I endeavor to make sure my stage lip mics are evenly spaced from the kick drum. If the kick drum is off center, I'd probably aim at the center, but the kick drum gives me a bit of a target since it's often right in the middle.


As jefflester points out, anything NOT loud on stage will probably be added to the PA mix in a sort of inverse proportion. This typically includes acoustic guitars, electronic keyboards, electronic drums, sample playback, and any sound effects added to the vocals. So that's what will most likely comprise your SBD feed. Position the mics to get the "BLAST" and feel of the band. Depending on capsule type, and stage layout, you might get better results on the corners, in the center, or midway. Other things to consider with stage lip recording are fans placing drinks, and guitarists clicking pedal boards or kicking mics over!?

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: In a SBD/AUD matrix, what should the mics capture?
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2021, 07:25:53 PM »
Great question! ..to which there is no single comprehensive answer.  But it makes for a great opportunity to discuss what's going on and how one might think about and approach various real world situations.

Morst and Jefflester's posts above note good tactics for the kind of acts, venues and taping commonly focused on at TS.

Taking a step back.. So much depends on the type of music, the venue, and the situation.  Have you made audience recordings of this or similar bands in this performance space?  What is your assessment of those past efforts?  Have you made any that leave you wanting for nothing more from inclusion of a SBD feed?

So much depends on what the SBD feed contains and how much reliance you can place on it.  Can it be the foundation atop which you recording might be built?  Might it only be relied upon as a possible source for sweetening vocal clarity?  Do know what exactly it will be lacking, or have too much of?  Can it be relied upon at all? 

What can you reasonably expect? How lucky you feel?  Getting something of a handle on these things allows you to determine the appropriate tactics to get more of what you want without too much disappointment along the way.


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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: In a SBD/AUD matrix, what should the mics capture?
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2021, 07:42:09 PM »
Recording from an audience position is simpler and more straight-forward in a lot of ways than recording from up close or on-stage.  Audience recording is essentially about capturing the audience listener's perspective present at the recording position.. and that generalized out-in-the-audience position sound is what the band, PA and soundguy are all working actively to support.  However, the sound up close can be more energetic and exciting, more intimate and intense.  It can be more akin to what listeners expect from a studio recording or professional live recording. When done right it can produce a better recording than from an audience perspective in many situations.

Here's one uncommon hypothetical-
You are given access to a totally complete, well balanced soundboard feed.  It contains all instruments in balance, some stereo effects and perhaps even some minor stereo panning on the drums or what have you.  In this case all that is really needed to make an outstanding recording is to flush it out with audience reaction and hall ambience provided by your own microphones and mixed in proper balance.  You don't need to record the direct sound from the band at all with your own mics, you need to record the audience and room.  You'll actually do best to set things up so as to exclude pickup of direct sound from on-stage and PA into your mics so that you can mix in as much audience and room as you like to taste without conflict with the dry direct-sound provided by the SBD.   You've likely seen bands doing multi-track live recording.  What kind of audience mics are they generally using in addition to the close mics? Typically a wide-spaced pair at the outer edges of the stage facing out at the audience to get the audience reaction and room sound.  Everything else is SBD.

Here's another more common one-
You have no idea what the SBD feed you are provided might contain, what kind of balance it might have, or how helpful it may be.. or you discover the SDB feed you were excited about getting totally sucks, or is is otherwise useless.  In this case you'll want to set things up so as to get as good a balance of everything from your microphones alone, but still record the SBD if possible as it might end up being useful but no love lost if you toss it.

The first scenario is unusual, especially with smaller acts in smaller rooms, but in my experience is becoming somewhat more common as soundguys and small venues move to digital boards that provide them more control.  If they have the time, skill and inclination, they can more easily provide a custom feed for you that may differ from what is sent to the PA.  But you need to be pretty sure of that before compromising your efforts at recording the direct sound from sound the band as well as that of the room and audience.

Generally you need to assume the SBD may not pan out at all and set up accordingly.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: In a SBD/AUD matrix, what should the mics capture?
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2021, 08:32:48 PM »
What you get on-stage is a wider range of intimacy and impact, big dynamics of subtle details combined with huge dynamics, the musicians talking to each other between acts, grunting and moaning, the audience reaction of the most engaged folks up front getting their minds blown, rather than the less engaged ones in back talking about yesterday's lunch.  A big wide enveloping sound that you are in the middle of instead of listening in on from some safe distance away.

Be prepared for wild levels, along with having to think about how to get a balanced contribution from everything.  You become your own sound guy in terms of working the balance of the recording.

Breaking it down more in terms of individual components of the total recorded sound:
1) There is the direct sound arrival from the instruments and vocals - this is what the soundboard primarily represents and can provide in spades when good.  It is what is lacking in a distant AUD or an AUD made in a bad room.  It's why we want the SBD recorded along with the sound from our mics.  It is the sound of clear vocals.  But it is also on-stage direct sound of things not in the SBD such as the band talking to each other and to the audience in front off mic, with some overlap with number four below..
2) There is the room sound - which might be great so that you'll want a good bit of its lush liveness in the recording, or might be so terrible you are fighting to minimize it as much as possible.  it is mostly reverberant, either in a lush way or a muddy mess.  It is part of what makes a live recording live, the sense of place totally lacking in the SBD.
3) There is the audience reaction - like the room sound this is not from the stage or PA.  But it is not the room sound and should be thought of differently even if not addressed differently in terms of recording or minimizing it. It is another part of what makes a live recording live and exciting, the sense of collective excitement that is usually weak if existent in the SBD.
4) There is the non-direct on-stage sound.  Great potential imaging to be had here.  The sound of the musicians interacting and doing their thing in their actual space.  Multidimensional aspects of the sound of percussion and drums as heard bouncing around in the immediate on-stage space area laid out in front front of you, as opposed to the more flattened, abstracted sound of mixed drums and percussion. This is a big part of what on-stage or stage-lip mics can provide over that of a good SBD alone.

Most of the time we don't have very much control over balancing the above aspects, but that is actually partly what we are doing by choosing the best AUD position (finding a good practical balance via position).  Recording on stage or at stage-lip provides a way of gaining more control over the entirety of that stuff, at the risk of having to put more of those individual components together and maybe lacking to get something important.

If in doubt, record your standard AUD arrangement and the SBD before going on stage or stage-lip, or do both if up for it.
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Offline DavidPuddy

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Re: In a SBD/AUD matrix, what should the mics capture?
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2021, 09:03:17 PM »
Great series of posts by gutbucket. In my experience, the soundboard feed you can expect (when available) is simply a sweetener to your audience recording. I generally mix it in to give a little clarify to the vocals and bass up until you can *just* hear it in the mix.
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Offline jefflester

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Re: In a SBD/AUD matrix, what should the mics capture?
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2021, 09:10:52 PM »
What are you planning to do deck-wise? It will be very difficult to balance levels between the SBD and the mics live if you are going straight to a 2-track recorder like an A10. You would need very high isolation headphones to be able to hear what you are recording and not the live sound in the room. So either a 4-track (or more) deck (ideal) or two separate 2-track recorders that you are planning to mix together in post-production? The latter will have additional challenges of aligning the two different recordings across the length of the whole concert.
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Offline vantheman

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Re: In a SBD/AUD matrix, what should the mics capture?
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2021, 09:57:00 PM »
You guys are all awesome. I understand what im trying to do now. As a point of reference I have a recent sbd thats all voice and a terrible listening experience overall. If only I’d mic’d those amps and drums too!

As far as a deck, I suppose I’d go with a DR100 mkiii with the mics and either a thumb drive or (attenuated) A10 from the soundboard. I haven’t been to either venue, and this all depends on what’s feasible based on what I observe in each room on the day. If I can set up a spaced pair in the sweet spot I’d just as soon do that. But with the permission of the artist, access to sound check, etc, why not try to go all out.

I don’t mind additional alignment challenges as long as it’s reasonably doable to align tracks from two different decks.
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Offline vantheman

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Re: In a SBD/AUD matrix, what should the mics capture?
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2021, 11:22:40 AM »
So either a 4-track (or more) deck (ideal) or two separate 2-track recorders that you are planning to mix together in post-production?

I'm not against making the investment in a 4+ track deck (your DR680MKII looks like a good candidate, I'd love to keep it under the $250 mark) but I'd be making a calculation that with an artist and sound person I've never met, in a venue I haven't been to, that I'll be able to easily run mics and a sbd feed into the same device - either stage mics back to FOH or vice versa with the sbd feed. Is this so worth the effort and cost for an occasional project that I should do this over manually aligning in post? If so I'll do it.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: In a SBD/AUD matrix, what should the mics capture?
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2021, 11:53:48 AM »
IMHO, the DR680MK2 is a great machine and excellent value.

If SBD is made available I usually try and record it, bringing along a small handheld recorder and empty thumb drive in addition to my primary multichannel recorder so I can record SBD to either (or neither) depending on the situation.  Nice afterward to have everything sync'd on one machine when possible, but using a separate recorder or thumb drive can be easier because I don't need to mess with making a cable run, and I tend to fill up the available channels on the primary recorder with mics.  That does mean I need to sync and stretch the SBD to fit later, and I may or may not make the effort depending, but its nice to have the option.  For me the SBD contribution is almost always used sparingly as a vocal and bass sweetner like David mentions, subservient to and in support of my mics. Of course its great when I decide I don't need to bother with the recorded SBD because my AUD or stage-lip recording stands sufficiently tall on its own, but there's no way to be certain of that beforehand.

I find a lot of matrix recordings tend to be mixed overly dry and SBD heavy for my taste. Certainly not all of them.  It's a subjective thing.

If recording something with PA amplified vocals from on-stage or stage-lip I'd definitely want SBD.  Also like to have it if when recording from a bit too far away or in a less than great room.  With instrumental acts in small venues it's less necessary, same from an excellent AUD position.
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Offline opsopcopolis

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Re: In a SBD/AUD matrix, what should the mics capture?
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2021, 12:32:02 PM »
Great explanation of the scenarios from Gutbucket. I think it should be noted that it is often more venue dependent than it is band dependent, and it helps to know how the venue you'll be taping in mixes their shows (especially if it's the house guy running FOH.) The smaller the venue the less likely you are to get a nice balanced SBD feed and the more reliant you'll end up being on getting a nice balanced AUD tape. A good example from my personal experience is a now defunct venue in DC (Gypsy Sally's) that was very taper friendly. They were always happy to give us board feeds, but were almost always mediocre, and the actual AUD sound at the back of the room by the board was truly terrible. In the end I stopped asking for board feeds because I'd rather get a better sounding AUD from a different spot in the room. Stage lip was the only way to make a good SBD/Mic matrix in that room

In general, unless I know the band/room relatively well, I go in expecting this scenario:
You have no idea what the SBD feed you are provided might contain, what kind of balance it might have, or how helpful it may be.. or you discover the SDB feed you were excited about getting totally sucks, or is is otherwise useless.  In this case you'll want to set things up so as to get as good a balance of everything from your microphones alone, but still record the SBD if possible as it might end up being useful but no love lost if you toss it.

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Re: In a SBD/AUD matrix, what should the mics capture?
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2021, 01:13:53 PM »
So either a 4-track (or more) deck (ideal) or two separate 2-track recorders that you are planning to mix together in post-production?

I'm not against making the investment in a 4+ track deck (your DR680MKII looks like a good candidate, I'd love to keep it under the $250 mark) but I'd be making a calculation that with an artist and sound person I've never met, in a venue I haven't been to, that I'll be able to easily run mics and a sbd feed into the same device - either stage mics back to FOH or vice versa with the sbd feed. Is this so worth the effort and cost for an occasional project that I should do this over manually aligning in post? If so I'll do it.
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Offline morst

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Re: In a SBD/AUD matrix, what should the mics capture?
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2021, 02:28:08 PM »
  What kind of audience mics are they generally using in addition to the close mics? Typically a wide-spaced pair at the outer edges of the stage facing out at the audience to get the audience reaction and room sound.  Everything else is SBD.

For this application (relatively complete SBD mix), short shotguns pointed about 10 rows back are commonly employed.
I've also set up a pair of long shotguns and a pair of short shotguns flanking the stage and aimed out into the crowd, although it's possible that one of the pairs was designated to the monitor mix engineer who could then "sweeten" the in-ear monitor feed, so the performers get some reaction.
I think it was Mix magazine which printed an interview with Steely Dan's engineer Roger Nichols, who was mixing stage monitors when they first tried IEMs in the early 1990s.
The first show, Donald and Walter complained that the crowd hated it, because they didn't hear any reaction.
On night two, Roger placed left and right shotguns aimed some rows back and dialed those in, and they all realized that the first night was like wearing earplugs against the crowd!

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Re: In a SBD/AUD matrix, what should the mics capture?
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2021, 02:42:59 PM »
Not sure if it was mentioned, but a nice thing about the DR-680 (or other recorders with > 4 channels) is that you can run your stereo room mics (2 ch), SBD (1 or 2 ch), and then grab other individual channels from the board.

I like to do 2xMICS, 1xSBD (unless it's a stereo mix), and then grab as many vocal mics as I can. Sometimes I use the extra channels, sometimes I don't.
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Offline billydee

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Re: In a SBD/AUD matrix, what should the mics capture?
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2021, 03:14:42 PM »
  What kind of audience mics are they generally using in addition to the close mics? Typically a wide-spaced pair at the outer edges of the stage facing out at the audience to get the audience reaction and room sound.  Everything else is SBD.

For this application (relatively complete SBD mix), short shotguns pointed about 10 rows back are commonly employed.
I've had quite a few opportunities to place a pair of mics anywhere I'd like on or near stage while also getting a balanced soundboard feed on a 4-channel recorder (Tascam DR701D). I've almost always opted to use omni capsules in this application and was most recently configured pointing out over the audience as in the attached picture.

And with this recent setup (pictured) I hoped to get a little of everything with the mics, some of the side fill speakers, some onstage sound, maybe a little PA and of course some audience. But in reality I got a little more audience noise (applause) then I would have wanted. Not a big deal in the end as I also recorded the live mix at about a 60% sbd/40% aud ratio onto channels 5 & 6, and find that adding a bit more straight soundboard to that live mix works well.

I was originally going to point the mics straight up in the air but at the last minute opted for the audience-facing angle in the picture. Would that have been better? Who knows...I'm just thankful for the opportunity to try different setups.

That all said I find the idea of pointing some sort of shotgun or more directional mic at the audience intriguing, and just giving up on the concept of capturing everything at once with the mics.

Thanks to the OP for starting this thread and all the good input!

Offline morst

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Re: In a SBD/AUD matrix, what should the mics capture?
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2021, 03:35:49 PM »
I've almost always opted to use omni capsules in this application and was most recently configured pointing out over the audience as in the attached picture.

And with this recent setup (pictured) I hoped to get a little of everything with the mics, some of the side fill speakers, some onstage sound, maybe a little PA and of course some audience. But in reality I got a little more audience noise (applause) then I would have wanted. Not a big deal in the end as I also recorded the live mix at about a 60% sbd/40% aud ratio onto channels 5 & 6, and find that adding a bit more straight soundboard to that live mix works well.
Have you heard the good word about the Subcardioid pattern? Also known as hypocardioid, it is mathematically a hybrid of omni and cardioid. So it has less coloration than a cardioid would, as well as less susceptibility to wind, while still allowing for some rejection in one direction.
I got a pair of Neumann KM143's which are their "Wide Cardioid" pattern, and I find them ideal for stage lip use because I can point them away from the audience (aka aim at the kick drum haha!)
sample mix
https://archive.org/details/CVB2018-08-31.FLAC1648/CVB2018-08-31t15.flac

Offline vantheman

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Re: In a SBD/AUD matrix, what should the mics capture?
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2021, 04:00:44 PM »
I think it was Mix magazine which printed an interview with Steely Dan's engineer Roger Nichols, who was mixing stage monitors when they first tried IEMs in the early 1990s.
The first show, Donald and Walter complained that the crowd hated it, because they didn't hear any reaction.
On night two, Roger placed left and right shotguns aimed some rows back and dialed those in, and they all realized that the first night was like wearing earplugs against the crowd![/font]

That's funny. I wasn't aware that Nichols did anything other than studio work for them. I was just reading that he spent something like a year doing nothing but drums for Kamakiriad. I know that album has its fans, but I still can't get through it (no fault of Roger Nichols obviously).
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Offline billydee

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Re: In a SBD/AUD matrix, what should the mics capture?
« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2021, 04:08:09 PM »
I've almost always opted to use omni capsules in this application and was most recently configured pointing out over the audience as in the attached picture.

And with this recent setup (pictured) I hoped to get a little of everything with the mics, some of the side fill speakers, some onstage sound, maybe a little PA and of course some audience. But in reality I got a little more audience noise (applause) then I would have wanted. Not a big deal in the end as I also recorded the live mix at about a 60% sbd/40% aud ratio onto channels 5 & 6, and find that adding a bit more straight soundboard to that live mix works well.
Have you heard the good word about the Subcardioid pattern? Also known as hypocardioid, it is mathematically a hybrid of omni and cardioid. So it has less coloration than a cardioid would, as well as less susceptibility to wind, while still allowing for some rejection in one direction.
I got a pair of Neumann KM143's which are their "Wide Cardioid" pattern, and I find them ideal for stage lip use because I can point them away from the audience (aka aim at the kick drum haha!)
sample mix
https://archive.org/details/CVB2018-08-31.FLAC1648/CVB2018-08-31t15.flac
Hey morst, what's up my friend! Thanks to that link I'll be listening to "(We're A) Bad Trip" the rest of the day!  :headphones:
Back on topic- yes I am familiar with sub and hyper card mics but don't presently own any. I'm a stubborn user of Naks and related clones and the pictured setup was a Teac ME-120 phantom-modded pair. So with my limited quiver it's just omni, card and long-ass shotgun caps for my options.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: In a SBD/AUD matrix, what should the mics capture?
« Reply #19 on: September 14, 2021, 05:16:50 PM »
EmRR just posted yesterday about his use of audience-facing wide spaced shotgun mics last weekend over in the shotgun mics usage thread (< link points to his 1st post about it yesterday), and we've discussed some details about it over there since.

Shotguns used in that way seems be a commonly used technique, but as mentioned in that thread, I wonder if shotguns are really the most appropriate choice for the application.  The intent is to maximize pickup of the audience with minimal pickup from stage and PA.  Okay I'm onboard with that, but with the stuff being rejected being potentially louder than what is on-axis, I'd think supercardioids to be a superior choice due to the much better off-axis behavior of a supercardioid than a shotgun, in the interest of keeping the significant audible bleed that inevitably occurs more natural sounding.  That way one should be able to use more level from them if desired before the rejected stuff becomes problematically audible.

The opposite (polar opposite, heh, heh) would be substitution with omnis like billydee mentions using.  With no meaningful directional sensitivity, placement becomes a critical balance tool, but what is picked up is likely to sound more natural.   If they can be placed appropriately and used like he mentions, getting a little bit of everything around them to good effect, that approach can work great.  Its really more like an on-stage mic'ing thing that includes up front audience.

I found using the edge of the stage itself as sort of a baffle (directional mics placed below the lip facing out) to help significantly when the goal is to keep as much stage sound out of the audience channels as possible.

I think it was Mix magazine which printed an interview with Steely Dan's engineer Roger Nichols, who was mixing stage monitors when they first tried IEMs in the early 1990s.
The first show, Donald and Walter complained that the crowd hated it, because they didn't hear any reaction.
On night two, Roger placed left and right shotguns aimed some rows back and dialed those in, and they all realized that the first night was like wearing earplugs against the crowd![/font]

I heard the same idea was the driver behind the origin of the "Healy method" of placing on stage two back to back LD omnis spaced about the same as one's ears angled 180 degrees apart - not so much for recording, but rather for feeding the then new highly-isolating IEMs the band had started using in place of monitor wedges with a bit of on-stage and audience sound.
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Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline crackmc

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Re: In a SBD/AUD matrix, what should the mics capture?
« Reply #20 on: September 16, 2021, 12:51:09 AM »
my preferred setup:

2x SBD
2x on stage omnis (split wide)
2x on stage cardioids (DFC/wide near-coincident/ORTF/whatever)
2x FOB/FOH cardioids/hypers/subs/depends on the room

throw it all into a DAW > save numerous beta mixes > spend a month listening to each mix in the car, home, headphones, etc. > ultimately remain undecided re: which mix you like best

you know, the usual
you'll love it
it's a way of life

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Re: In a SBD/AUD matrix, what should the mics capture?
« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2021, 08:35:27 AM »
my preferred setup:

2x SBD
2x on stage omnis (split wide)
2x on stage cardioids (DFC/wide near-coincident/ORTF/whatever)

2x FOB/FOH cardioids/hypers/subs/depends on the room

throw it all into a DAW > save numerous beta mixes > spend a month listening to each mix in the car, home, headphones, etc. > ultimately remain undecided re: which mix you like best

you know, the usual
Where do you aim the stage cards? At the band?

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Re: In a SBD/AUD matrix, what should the mics capture?
« Reply #22 on: September 16, 2021, 09:37:00 AM »
..throw it all into a DAW > save numerous beta mixes > spend a month listening to each mix in the car, home, headphones, etc. > ultimately remain undecided re: which mix you like best

you know, the usual

 :yack:
Great TS signature line there
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

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Re: In a SBD/AUD matrix, what should the mics capture?
« Reply #23 on: September 16, 2021, 12:19:24 PM »
throw it all into a DAW > save numerous beta mixes > spend a month listening to each mix in the car, home, headphones, etc. > ultimately remain undecided re: which mix you like best
:yack:This is pretty much me for all of my recordings. I end up posting very few shows because I get hung up on the mix, get bored with it, then record another show and move on to that one. Rinse and repeat.

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Re: In a SBD/AUD matrix, what should the mics capture?
« Reply #24 on: September 17, 2021, 12:07:00 AM »
my preferred setup:

2x SBD
2x on stage omnis (split wide)
2x on stage cardioids (DFC/wide near-coincident/ORTF/whatever)

2x FOB/FOH cardioids/hypers/subs/depends on the room

throw it all into a DAW > save numerous beta mixes > spend a month listening to each mix in the car, home, headphones, etc. > ultimately remain undecided re: which mix you like best

you know, the usual


Where do you aim the stage cards? At the band?

yup
i'll point a cardioid at the crowd if i have a free channel
i've ran XY @ the crowd when FOB/FOH isn't doable with really good results
(but really a mono center channel works better than stereo in this application IMO)
you'll love it
it's a way of life

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Re: In a SBD/AUD matrix, what should the mics capture?
« Reply #25 on: October 10, 2021, 07:58:29 PM »
I have a couple more questions that didn’t turn up a good search result -

Any reason why I should not run my CM4s on stage lip? I’ve read that these mics need a little breathing room away from ceilings. I gather this might also apply to a stage floor as well.

And for running my stage mics to the board, do I need XLR cables long enough to extend to the board, or will the FOH guy have that covered? And if so, how much length would I need to have a high likelihood of reaching the board in a 200ish capacity club?
AT U853A Cardioids (SP-CMC-4U) > SP-SPSB-10 12V > Sony A10

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Re: In a SBD/AUD matrix, what should the mics capture?
« Reply #26 on: October 11, 2021, 09:30:31 AM »
Your CM4s will work great at stagelip if the sound is good there. Don't fear the floor.  Running low to the floor on stage can work really well, often providing less obscured direct lines from a majority of on-stage sound sources.

Yes, maybe, depends.
Sometimes easiest to run a separate recorder up at the stage, in which case you will likely need to sync/stretch one source to mix with the other.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline vantheman

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Re: In a SBD/AUD matrix, what should the mics capture?
« Reply #27 on: October 11, 2021, 09:43:43 AM »
Your CM4s will work great at stagelip if the sound is good there. Don't fear the floor.  Running low to the floor on stage can work really well, often providing less obscured direct lines from a majority of on-stage sound sources.

Yes, maybe, depends.
Sometimes easiest to run a separate recorder up at the stage, in which case you will likely need to sync/stretch one source to mix with the other.

Thanks again Gutbucket. I’m starting to lean toward running my own deck up by the stage. If nothing else it’ll give me a chance to get my bearings working up there, and then sometime down the road start running the multitrack recorder back at the board.
AT U853A Cardioids (SP-CMC-4U) > SP-SPSB-10 12V > Sony A10

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Re: In a SBD/AUD matrix, what should the mics capture?
« Reply #28 on: October 11, 2021, 10:37:14 AM »
If the FOH is game, it’s definitely easiest to run the stage lip mics through the snake to FOH.
Mics: Berliner CM-33, CA-14 card, CA-11 card & omni, AT-853, Sony ECM-907
Recorders: Tascam DR-60D, Tascam DR-05, Sony Hi-MD

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Re: In a SBD/AUD matrix, what should the mics capture?
« Reply #29 on: October 11, 2021, 11:01:44 AM »

All mileage may vary, of course depending on seat location etc.
BUT Direct answer to the cable question is:
Carry a pair of 50' XLR to XLR with XLR to 1/4 inch adapters for the breakout box onstage. Then carry a shorter pair (10-15') of XLR to 1/4 inch and or RCA for plugging from SBD to your deck.

If the FOH guy offers or has room, it is typically best to let him run your signal to the SBD via his snake and plug your mics into his breakout box.
music IS love

When you get confused, listen to the music play!

Mics:         AKG460|CK61|CK1|CK3|CK8|Beyer M 201E|DPA 4060 SK
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Re: In a SBD/AUD matrix, what should the mics capture?
« Reply #30 on: October 11, 2021, 11:30:35 AM »

Any reason why I should not run my CM4s on stage lip? I’ve read that these mics need a little breathing room away from ceilings. I gather this might also apply to a stage floor as well.

And for running my stage mics to the board, do I need XLR cables long enough to extend to the board, or will the FOH guy have that covered? And if so, how much length would I need to have a high likelihood of reaching the board in a 200ish capacity club?

My go to in smaller clubs is to run mics at the stage lip and recorder back by the board.
(1) Use a couple of empty snake channels to run the signal to the back and record from the relative safety of the FOH. Take your SBD patch back there.
(2) If no empty input channels on the stage snake there is often an empty send from the FOH. Ask the FOH to send your feed to the front and take it from the stage box. Run recorder off to the side.
(3) If no other options I'll just run mics and recorder at the FOH position.

Things I always prepare for in this scenario -

Short desktop stand gets mics high enough to point over the monitors but oriented low.
Plenty of XLR cables and adapters. A pair of TRS > XLRM has saved my bacon more than once.
A kickdown for the FOH engineer. Amazing how many times this has changed someone's tone when I need a favor from them even if they said no thanks.
rig in transition during temporary hiatus

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Re: In a SBD/AUD matrix, what should the mics capture?
« Reply #31 on: October 11, 2021, 12:20:51 PM »
Team Pickle technique is to carry two sets of XLR barrel "Turnarounds" of each gender, male-male and female-female, and have the FoH mix engineer send the board feed up a couple of unused snake input channels by using the adaptors.
Now you have a board feed on stage and you can plug that into a multitrack recorder along with your stage mics, AND you can see the show from up front AND keep an eye on your mic placement!



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Re: In a SBD/AUD matrix, what should the mics capture?
« Reply #32 on: October 11, 2021, 02:34:38 PM »
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I've seen morst in action. He is good at "adapting".       s/ Even when the promoter is sketchy.         :o    (inside joke) /s
music IS love

When you get confused, listen to the music play!

Mics:         AKG460|CK61|CK1|CK3|CK8|Beyer M 201E|DPA 4060 SK
Recorders:Marantz PMD661 OADE Concert mod; Tascam DR680 MKI

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: In a SBD/AUD matrix, what should the mics capture?
« Reply #33 on: October 11, 2021, 04:48:40 PM »
Go team pickle!
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

 

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