Become a Site Supporter and Never see Ads again!

Author Topic: Record choir/organ in wide width/narrow depth balcony space  (Read 1605 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline aaronji

  • Site Supporter
  • (8)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *
  • Posts: 3377
Re: Record choir/organ in wide width/narrow depth balcony space
« Reply #30 on: October 24, 2021, 04:33:31 PM »
The OP is using a pair of ultra-lightweight mics. The cheap Chinese stuff will more than suffice. Another option there is the Superlux MA-90.

I generally subscribe to the "buy once, cry once" principal. I would rather pay a little extra for a high grade item that will be dependable and long-lived. I thought about the Superlux, but I saw quite a few negative comments about its quality. With respect to t.bone, I have owned several of the products in the line and they aren't terrible, but they aren't great either. Plus, Thomann is a German company and shipping to the US would be about $50.

I guess this strays a bit into PZ territory, but I also prefer to purchase US or EU made items.

Outside of the 154B, there really isn't much on the market that will do 60 cm width. I agree that the bar from mikrofonschiene looks great, and you have previously shared how much you like it. It would cost 133 EUR with shipping to USA (no VAT). Still quite a bit to spend, but if followinbob's wide bar wasn't available, that is what I would probably buy.

I just looked up the 66 cm SpaceBar. I am sure it is beautifully engineered, but for that price, it should be made out of titanium.

Yes, the SpaceBar is spendy. I would like one, but I haven't been able to justify the cost (yet; maybe someday). Compared to the 154B, though, I would much rather have a bar from Robert (especially with it's easily expandable configuration) or a followinbob bar*. The Manfrotto is just so cumbersome and unwieldy. As the OP is concerned about visual impact, there are just other, better, options, including some of the DIY bars people here have posted about previously.

*When I bought the mikrofonshiene.de bar, I was actually planning to buy one from followinbob. When I calculated shipping, VAT, duties and fees, though, it just made more sense for me to buy from Robert.

[EDIT:] A couple of the do-it-yourself options are described in this thread.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2021, 04:48:45 PM by aaronji »

Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • (15)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 14383
  • Gender: Male
  • "and the rowers keep on rowing!"
Re: Record choir/organ in wide width/narrow depth balcony space
« Reply #31 on: October 25, 2021, 11:44:17 AM »
Thanks for outlining how this will be used.  I think this should be the primary influence on what mounting gear you purchase.  Since it's a regular Sunday service with congregation present, I'd start out as described with two stands and experiment with slightly different setups each week for a couple months.  Once you tire of experimenting, purchase a dedicated 3D printed bar that fits the configuration that worked best, which will help make setting up weekly from that point on as quick, easy, and repeatable as possible - by yourself or whomever you might hand the job off to.  The value of a simple setup with repeatability will become increasingly evident as time goes on and this becomes a routine task rather than an opportunity to experiment.

The Healy Method is just a particular variant on near-spaced omnis.  It's a pseudo-binaural technique originally designed to feed highly isolating in ear monitors with some on-stage sound.  It originally used larger diaphragm omnidirecitonal microphones which become somewhat directional at high frequencies, placed back to back and oriented 180 degrees apart so as to to compensate somewhat for the close spacing and lack of a baffle or dummy head between the microphones. It might work for this. A dummy head or simple flat baffle (Jecklin disk) work somewhat similarly.  Those techniques can sound quite natural.  But all of them make for a recording that sort of emulates the experience of a listener with his head placed where the microphones are.  I suspect the acoustic crosstalk inherent from not using a baffle of dummy head will be advantageous here to help blend the sources together somewhat amorphously rather than seeking to place them specifically around the listener.

In your process of homing in on an optimal configuration, adjustment of the spacing between the microphones will have an effect on the perceived width, spatial distribution, and revererant openness of the playback image.  You might also notice a somewhat more subtle tonal EQ effect in the mid and lower frequencies (this will likely be more evident if making small spacing adjustments by hand).

Using omnis, adjustment of the angle between the microphones will sort of as a high frequency tonal focus control.  So once you get the spacing about where you want it, play around with angle to balance the brightness and clarity of the organ in the middle against that of the choir out to either side.

The more directional the microphones used, the more angle will interact with spacing in terms of the combined effect over image distribution, in addition to having an effect on focus and tonal balance. 

That's how things behave in general.  I hesitate to speculate too much further on what might work best in this specific situation.  Once you get rolling, make notes of your setups so you can associate what you did differently each recording.  Once you do it enough you'll get to a point where you'll get a good feel for how spacing and angle interact in this particular situation.

If you are able to post some samples or point us to the webcasts along with letting us know how the microphones were set up each time, we can listen and provide more detailed feedback on the arrangements.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline voltronic

  • (34)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3425
Re: Record choir/organ in wide width/narrow depth balcony space
« Reply #32 on: October 25, 2021, 07:21:52 PM »
I generally subscribe to the "buy once, cry once" principal. I would rather pay a little extra for a high grade item that will be dependable and long-lived. I thought about the Superlux, but I saw quite a few negative comments about its quality. With respect to t.bone, I have owned several of the products in the line and they aren't terrible, but they aren't great either. Plus, Thomann is a German company and shipping to the US would be about $50.

That's fair, and I also don't mind paying a bit more for something well-made and reliable. The mikrofonschiene products appear to be exactly that.

I plugged in my address on Thomann, and ouch you are correct. Never recommending that one to US residents again.


Yes, the SpaceBar is spendy. I would like one, but I haven't been able to justify the cost (yet; maybe someday). Compared to the 154B, though, I would much rather have a bar from Robert (especially with it's easily expandable configuration) or a followinbob bar*. The Manfrotto is just so cumbersome and unwieldy. As the OP is concerned about visual impact, there are just other, better, options, including some of the DIY bars people here have posted about previously.

Point taken. The SpaceBar is just massively overpriced IMHO, unless they make it out of titanium as I said before. Even worse are the mic bars sold by Schoeps, DPA and Gefell.

[EDIT:] A couple of the do-it-yourself options are described in this thread.

Yes, I was revisiting that thread the other day and was compiling my own list of 15mm-based hardware. Looks like you can put together some great setups for really cheap, but I'll continue that discussion over there.
DPA 4061 ~ Line Audio CM3 ~ Naiant X-Q ~ AT 853  |  Naiant PFAs ~ Shure FP24  |  Zoom F6 ~ Sony PCM-M10
MOTU M2 ~ KRK Rokit RP5 ~ Sennheiser HD 650 ~ Etymotic ER4XR

Team Line Audio

Offline aaronji

  • Site Supporter
  • (8)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *
  • Posts: 3377
Re: Record choir/organ in wide width/narrow depth balcony space
« Reply #33 on: October 26, 2021, 01:22:51 PM »
^ Thomann's US shipping is indeed expensive, but your caveat is a good one. The company has a huge range of products, fast shipping, and responsive customer service. I have bought a lot of stuff from them. Their site is also available in a wide range of languages and their e-mails (and responses to customer inquiries) are in the country specific language.

I would love to own a SpaceBar or the DPA bar (I think it is the UA0836), but $500 (+) is a LOT of cash for an amateur hobbyist to spend on something like that. Not that the expense particularly slowed down my mic (or other gear) purchases, however...   

Offline willdawg

  • (0)
  • Taperssection Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 7
Re: Record choir/organ in wide width/narrow depth balcony space
« Reply #34 on: October 28, 2021, 05:11:25 PM »
So, went with this microphone support setup --


I feel that's a good setup for ~$280... (good enough for me, anyhow)

Thomann was indeed easy to work with -- billing in USD for a DE-based company, and I think I got it in less than a week! (No complaints about NoHype, either... Very happy with JPG's service!)

Anyways, the opening setup:
  • stand ~7.5ft high
  • omni's spread at 64cm (32cm from center each way, widest setting on the bar)
  • mics angled at 30deg outward (so as to not point straight at organ pipes)

Side view:


Front view:


View from floor area looking up (you can see the offset from center in this photo, don't believe I can do much about that):


Am I way off base here, or it's just a game of "use your ears, change, repeat?" at this point?

Thanks again you guys for pitching in and guiding me! Love this community...

Offline voltronic

  • (34)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3425
Re: Record choir/organ in wide width/narrow depth balcony space
« Reply #35 on: October 28, 2021, 08:47:22 PM »
This looks like a good starting place to me, other than being very far off center. Why do you say you can't do anything about that? Your setup should definitely be centered on the choir. I would have a conversation with the conductor about having the stand directly behind him. Otherwise, you will never get a decent balance. This is standard practice for any pro choral or orchestra recording for a main array (albeit usually not nearly so close).
DPA 4061 ~ Line Audio CM3 ~ Naiant X-Q ~ AT 853  |  Naiant PFAs ~ Shure FP24  |  Zoom F6 ~ Sony PCM-M10
MOTU M2 ~ KRK Rokit RP5 ~ Sennheiser HD 650 ~ Etymotic ER4XR

Team Line Audio

Offline DSatz

  • Site Supporter
  • (35)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *
  • Posts: 3170
  • Gender: Male
Re: Record choir/organ in wide width/narrow depth balcony space
« Reply #36 on: October 29, 2021, 10:52:43 AM »
I have the same question. You can't "correct" a stereo recording (e.g. by adjusting the relative levels of the left and right recorded channels) to make up for an off-center main mike setup.

--best regards
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline rocksuitcase

  • (3)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 7176
  • Gender: Male
    • RockSuitcase: stage photography
Re: Record choir/organ in wide width/narrow depth balcony space
« Reply #37 on: October 29, 2021, 11:14:08 AM »
DSatz and volt are eminent voices regarding this type of recording. They are making THE point. Explain to the conductor that NO recording will sound "Complete" unless you start in the center.
Then you'll be sliding the omnis from full extension, to about 30 cm apart. (if it were me, I'd do 2 recordings at each omni separation. full extension [54cm?], 40 cm, 30 cm)
music IS love

When you get confused, listen to the music play!

Mics:         AKG460|CK61|CK1|CK3|CK8|Beyer M 201E|DPA 4060 SK
Recorders:Marantz PMD661 OADE Concert mod; Tascam DR680 MKI

Offline voltronic

  • (34)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3425
Re: Record choir/organ in wide width/narrow depth balcony space
« Reply #38 on: October 30, 2021, 07:20:23 AM »
I would also make the point that having a mic array way off-center is far more visually obtrusive than one positioned far to one side. People will look up and see the symmetry of the organ and the church in general, and the off-centered mics will appear discordant even to people who don't know what they are looking at.
DPA 4061 ~ Line Audio CM3 ~ Naiant X-Q ~ AT 853  |  Naiant PFAs ~ Shure FP24  |  Zoom F6 ~ Sony PCM-M10
MOTU M2 ~ KRK Rokit RP5 ~ Sennheiser HD 650 ~ Etymotic ER4XR

Team Line Audio

 

RSS | Mobile
Page created in 0.043 seconds with 32 queries.
© 2002-2021 Taperssection.com
Powered by SMF