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Author Topic: How can I prevent recordings with vocals in one channel and band in the other?  (Read 2572 times)

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Offline jj69

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Sometimes when stealth taping (with cards clipped to shirt collar), I end up with very "unbalanced" recordings.  For example, with drums/guitar/bass heavily favoring the left channel and vocals almost entirely in the right channel.  I assume this is the result of the sound reaching my left mic before the right one, and with the vocals (in this case coming off the right channel PA monitor) reaching my right mic first.  This results in a mess that I cannot correct.  If all instruments favored a single channel, that's easy enough to correct by delaying the favored channel by few samples, thereby centering everything in the middle of the sound field. The room in question has the stage set up along the long wall of the rectangular shaped room.  The left and right channel PA monitors are therefore some distance apart.  The room could really use a center fill channel, but I'm not holding my breath that will ever happen. 

Sometimes in this room, I make a nice, well balanced recording, but other times, I end up with an unbalanced mess like this.  Is there anything I can do to prevent this?  I try to stand in the dead center of the room, as far back as possible.  Should I try to orient my card mics so they're both facing straight ahead, or should I try to toe them outward in a more ORTF-like configuration? 

Any other suggestions?  I don't suppose there is anything I can do in post??? 

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I'm trying to picture the geometry here: You're centered in the room, but the vocals are reaching you from the right PA well before the left?

Offline Gutbucket

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Less directional mics or a more parallel arrangement of directional mics might help.

The Izotope RX remix algorithms are getting better all the time, but are only in the advanced version and so rather costly.  They aim to isolate vocals and specific instruments from a mix so that you can do whatever you like with each of them, such as re-panning their stereo image placement. I've not used them and am not sure if their quality is up to this task yet, but there is good potential here if the latest routines are able to avoid producing objectionable artifacts.

You might try a simpler stereo image rebalancing tool that splits content into a few frequency ranges and provides controls to modify the stereo width, center balance and panning of each range independent of each other.  If you are able to isolate the primary vocal mid and upper midrange material sufficiently in one control band you might be able to shift it to a more centered position.  That will effect all content in that frequency range though so tread lightly, its easy to make even more of a mess of things with those kinds of tools.

If nothing else works and the lopsided imaging is too odd and objectionable as it is, you might try something a bit more radical- Use the channel with the strong vocals as Mid channel and the other as Side channel into a Mid/Side decode matrix.  Adjust the balance between the two channels to suit. This will center the vocal (along with everything else that is dominant in that channel) and spread the stuff which is dominant in the other channel out to the sides somewhat amorphously.  It will destroy whatever discrete Left/Right aspects exist and and replace them with a sort of pseudo stereo effect of solid center with more spacious sides.  You get more of a sense of depth-stereo than left/right-stereo, but that can remedy the radical panning problems.  It has worked for me in the past to get something listenable out of overly lopsided recordings.

Lastly, decide if it might be acceptable to a listener to have the vocal all the way to one side.  That's not typical but can work sometimes.  It can be more difficult to accept as the recordist than a random listener since you were at the event when the recording was made and have a mental image of how things were laid out at the live situation and a conception of how its "supposed to sound".  Try to listen to it like a stranger.  That can help when assessing the Mid/Side trick thing too.  Don't compare too much with your concept of how it's supposed to sound, but find something that is simply enjoyable and avoids drawing the listener's attention to the original problem.
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Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline jj69

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Gutbucket,

Thank you for the thorough response!

Conicidentally, I just tried using RX7 to isolate the vocal in the right channel and paste it into the left. The result is actually a big improvement.

However, I'm intrigued by your pseudo mid side suggestion.  What is the best workflow to accomplish that in Audition 3.0 and/or RX7?

Less directional mics is a no go. The cards are barely enough to suppress the screaming of the usual drunken idiots that frequent these rock clubs...

Offline Gutbucket

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You can either do it manually in your DAW software, or with a free plug-in.  Some DAWs provide a useful shortcuts to do it easily.. Its been a while since I used Audition so I can't recall specifics there. 

To do it manually in the DAW's mixer without any shortcuts:
1) Break the stereo file into two separate mono tracks.
2) The channel with more vocals will be the Mid channel. Pan or assign that channel to center in the mixer (or route it to both Left and Right channels of the mix bus, which is the same thing).
3) Copy the other channel to a third mixer channel. Pan one copy of that hard Left.
5) Invert polarity on the other copy and pan it hard right.
6) Link the hard-panned channel faders together so that you can adjust their level in unison.  This pair of channels represents the Side signal.
7) Bring up the fader on the Mid channel- you'll get a mono, centered representation of the channel with more vox in it.
8 ) Bring up both hard-panned channels together and by the same amount (easy to do in an even way if they are linked, but that's not strictly necessary).  The more of this you add to the mono center, the wider and more diffuse sounding it will get.

You can further adjust things by un-linking two Side channel faders and setting their levels independently of each other.  This will make it wider on one side than the other, and also increase the level of the wide content on that side simultaneously. 

[Edit] You don't have to keep the Mid panned to center, you can pan it slightly to one side or the other as needed.  This can be helpful in combination with independent adjustment of the Side channel levels to get a good image and Left and Right energy balance.

Doing it manually like this in the DAW mixer will help you wrap your head around what is going on, making it a good way to go.  You can also do it using something like the Voxengo MSED plugin (free download) without the copying and extra mixer channels, but its not as easy to visualize what is going on that way.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2021, 03:03:24 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Gutbucket

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Another option is to simply mix it to mono!  That way you control the mix of the two channels without worries about the resulting stereo image.  If nothing else works this can be the least problematic option, and will be the first option for some folks.  Mono has inadvertently been made relevant in the modern age again via playback directly from a single phone speaker or wireless blue-tooth speaker.

Can be good to try this anyway just to see if you get a better balance of instruments and vocals, and as a point of comparison with the other techniques.

If the recording is dry enough, a light touch of reverb can give a mono recording a sense of stereo, but tread lightly.  That way you level balance the content first into mono, then add a bit of stereo 'verb ambiance.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline capnhook

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Mix to mono, then run it through Ozone Imager to "stereoize" it.

Better that polishing a turd....I think you'll get an acceptable result.

Make great tapes, man..

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Offline jj69

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I followed Gutbucket's instructions to make a mid-side mix, but I ended up with a mixdown that has the left channel much louder than the right.  I must be  doing something wrong? 

Offline capnhook

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I followed Gutbucket's instructions to make a mid-side mix, but I ended up with a mixdown that has the left channel much louder than the right.  I must be  doing something wrong?

Maybe too much polish?

PM me, send me the .wav, lemme see what I can do with it.

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"Don't ever take an all or nothing attitude when it comes to making a difference
and being beautiful and making the world a beautiful place through your actions.
Every little bit is registered.  Every little bit.  So be as beautiful as you can as often as you can"

"It'll never be over, 'till we learn."
 
"My dream is to get a bus and get the band and just go coast to coast. Just about everything else except music, is anti-musical.  That's it.  Music's the thing." - Jeb Puryear

Offline morst

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Sometimes when stealth taping (with cards clipped to shirt collar), I end up with very "unbalanced" recordings.  For example, with drums/guitar/bass heavily favoring the left channel and vocals almost entirely in the right channel.  I assume this is the result of the sound reaching my left mic before the right one, and with the vocals (in this case coming off the right channel PA monitor) reaching my right mic first.  This results in a mess that I cannot correct. 
Do you mean that you are standing close to the stage, on the "house left" side, and your left channel has the PA speaker "stack" and your right channel has the sound of a loud stage monitor which carries a lot of vocals? Or in a small club, vice versa, where you are on house right side, and the speaker on your right channel side has nothing but vocals, and the left side of your head (collar!) has the loud band?
Can you provide a short sample of the sound so we can hear what you mean?
If you are recording something where one side of your head (shirt collar?) gets a lot of vocals, and the other side gets a full mix then this makes sense.
Combining a mono mix with your stereo channels might be a good way to split the difference between what you have and a pure mono mix.
There are different ways to do this- panning the left and right towards center, or adding a mono summed track to your stereo pair.
I think those techniques wind up giving you the same options.

Offline opsopcopolis

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^^ that’s what it sounds like to me. Standing close to the stage, direct sound from stage in one mice, PA in the other. Seems the solution would be to move bak and center on the stack, even with omnis you’ll still end up with a portly balanced tape (although easier to fix than the cards
Mics: Berliner CM-33, CA-14 card, CA-11 card & omni, AT-853, Sony ECM-907
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Offline Gutbucket

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I followed Gutbucket's instructions to make a mid-side mix, but I ended up with a mixdown that has the left channel much louder than the right.  I must be  doing something wrong?

Not necessarily doing anything wrong.  That technique may or may not work well depending on the content.  Its just one potentially useful option to try.  One general problem with it is the low frequency content which tends to be phase correlated in both channels will be constructively reinforced in the left (sum) channel and destructively canceled in the right (difference) channel, unless you do additional stuff like mono the low frequencies afterward, only apply the Mid/Side (sum/difference) matrixing above the bass range, or do use other advanced techniques to create the Side (difference) channel. That's why its louder in the left channel.

It can be fun to play around with this stuff, but I think the Captain's instinct is likely best if you just want to be done with it and move on. Mix to mono and either leave it that way or do something to lightly stereoize it.  The Mid/Side rematrixing technique is essentially a variation on that, using the difference between channels to effect the "stereoization".  However, like anything else, it can often take a bit of extra massaging to get it to work right.  Its just one interesting technique to try and have available.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Gutbucket

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^^ that’s what it sounds like to me. Standing close to the stage, direct sound from stage in one mice, PA in the other. Seems the solution would be to move bak and center on the stack, even with omnis you’ll still end up with a portly balanced tape (although easier to fix than the cards

This is right. If you need or want to be in that position though, close your eyes and rotate the rig (which might be you) until you get a centered sound at the start of recording.  That will generally have you pointing directly toward the closer, louder PA speaker or on-stage source.  Don't try and compensate for being off center by facing or pointing the mics at center stage, or worse - toward the more distant PA speaker on the opposite side.  Trying to compensate that way will only exacerbate the problem.   In this way you will at least get a centered image.   To get a better stereo image that will also also centered, you'd need to move to a new position where you are exposed to about the same level from both PA speakers.  From an off center position you don't have much choice but to sacrifice good stereo image of the on-stage sound, but that doesn't mean you need to end up with a lopsided recording of the PA & stage sound.  This technique will emphasize the lopsidedness of the audience reaction a bit more, but that's an acceptable trade off IMO.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline opsopcopolis

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^^ that’s what it sounds like to me. Standing close to the stage, direct sound from stage in one mice, PA in the other. Seems the solution would be to move bak and center on the stack, even with omnis you’ll still end up with a portly balanced tape (although easier to fix than the cards

This is right. If you need or want to be in that position though, close your eyes and rotate the rig (which might be you) until you get a centered sound at the start of recording.  That will generally have you pointing directly toward the closer, louder PA speaker or on-stage source.  Don't try and compensate for being off center by facing or pointing the mics at center stage, or worse - toward the more distant PA speaker on the opposite side.

I'm often the one person standing off to the side facing straight forward instead of angled toward the stage...
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Offline seethreepo

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^^ that’s what it sounds like to me. Standing close to the stage, direct sound from stage in one mice, PA in the other. Seems the solution would be to move bak and center on the stack, even with omnis you’ll still end up with a portly balanced tape (although easier to fix than the cards

The OP says he’s centered and as far back as possible so is not a stack tape / monitor situation.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Still need to rotate the rig to point directly at the audible acoustic center no mater the location, centered or otherwise.  The common problem is that the acoustic center and visual center frequently differ.  If it's particularly bad, with differing lopsidedness's for various instruments or parts of the mix you'll need to choose what is most important to have centered in the resulting recording (the vocal presumably) and let the rest fall where it may.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline jj69

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^^ that’s what it sounds like to me. Standing close to the stage, direct sound from stage in one mice, PA in the other. Seems the solution would be to move bak and center on the stack, even with omnis you’ll still end up with a portly balanced tape (although easier to fix than the cards

No, this was not the situation at all.  I was in the sweet spot, dead center in front of the stage between the two monitors and about 2/3 back from the stage.  75% of the time  this produces a well balanced recording in this room, but 25% of the time I get vocals dominant in one channel.  The stage  is on the long wall in a rectangular room, resulting in the ceiling mounted PA monitors being farther apart than they should be.  The room desperately needs a center fill channel.  I just wish I could find a way to reduce that 25% figure but I'm not sure what else I can do.  I'm guessing the mic on my right shirt collar must have shifted too far outward.  I have to remember to get my shirt starched at the cleaners. 


Offline jj69

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I was not able to make the pseudo mid-side mix work.  Mono is out of the question for me. 

The best result I've been able to get so far has been through use of the "Music Rebalance" feature in Izotope RX7.  I used that feature to isolate the lead vocal from the right channel.  I then inverted the polarity of the isolated vocal and I "Mix Pasted" that inverted isolated vocal track into the the left channel.  I found that after isolating the lead vocal, I had to significantly reduce the gain on the resulting isolated vocal track before pasting it into the left channel.  I'm not sure why.  It could be an artifact of the Music Rebalance process.  The vocals were actually too loud in the mix in general for this show, so that is a factor as well. 

The result I got was very natural sounding, but the vocals are still too dominant in the mix.  I'm going to try using Music Rebalance to reduce the gain on the vocal in the original right channel by a couple of db to see if that helps...


Offline Gutbucket

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More starch!  ;)
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Scooter123

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Or Center Channel Extract in RX7 would work perfect, the software taking the perceived center of the two channels and extracting that as a separate source.  Add the two original sources plus the extract to a DAW (Reaper ProTools, etc) and mix the three sources accordingly. 
« Last Edit: October 26, 2021, 07:53:20 PM by Scooter123 »
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Offline jj69

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What's the best way for me to post samples here? 

Offline capnhook

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Offline opsopcopolis

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^^ that’s what it sounds like to me. Standing close to the stage, direct sound from stage in one mice, PA in the other. Seems the solution would be to move bak and center on the stack, even with omnis you’ll still end up with a portly balanced tape (although easier to fix than the cards

No, this was not the situation at all.  I was in the sweet spot, dead center in front of the stage between the two monitors and about 2/3 back from the stage.  75% of the time  this produces a well balanced recording in this room, but 25% of the time I get vocals dominant in one channel.  The stage  is on the long wall in a rectangular room, resulting in the ceiling mounted PA monitors being farther apart than they should be.  The room desperately needs a center fill channel.  I just wish I could find a way to reduce that 25% figure but I'm not sure what else I can do.  I'm guessing the mic on my right shirt collar must have shifted too far outward.  I have to remember to get my shirt starched at the cleaners.

If that's the case and what you're hearing in the recording is NOT what you're hearing in the tape, omnis will make a huge difference as the orientation of the capsules will have a significantly smaller effect on the pickup. That said, the change in balance is weird, I'd expect one channel to be quieter than the other, not pickup entirely different signal
Mics: Berliner CM-33, CA-14 card, CA-11 card & omni, AT-853, Sony ECM-907
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Offline jj69

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^^ that’s what it sounds like to me. Standing close to the stage, direct sound from stage in one mice, PA in the other. Seems the solution would be to move bak and center on the stack, even with omnis you’ll still end up with a portly balanced tape (although easier to fix than the cards

No, this was not the situation at all.  I was in the sweet spot, dead center in front of the stage between the two monitors and about 2/3 back from the stage.  75% of the time  this produces a well balanced recording in this room, but 25% of the time I get vocals dominant in one channel.  The stage  is on the long wall in a rectangular room, resulting in the ceiling mounted PA monitors being farther apart than they should be.  The room desperately needs a center fill channel.  I just wish I could find a way to reduce that 25% figure but I'm not sure what else I can do.  I'm guessing the mic on my right shirt collar must have shifted too far outward.  I have to remember to get my shirt starched at the cleaners.

If that's the case and what you're hearing in the recording is NOT what you're hearing in the tape, omnis will make a huge difference as the orientation of the capsules will have a significantly smaller effect on the pickup. That said, the change in balance is weird, I'd expect one channel to be quieter than the other, not pickup entirely different signal

Unfortunately, omnis would be counterproductive in this situation.  Remember, this is a stealth recording with small mics clipped to a shirt collar.  As with must rock clubs, the room is filled with screaming drunken idiots.  It's hard enough keeping away from them as it is.  Cards are just mandatory in such situations. 

I've come up with what I think is a good result.  Is there an easy way for me to post samples here? 

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Offline jj69

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Here are two samples, the first without processing, the second using the "Music Rebalance" feature to do two things:

1. Isolate the vocal from the right channel, reverse its polarity and then paste it into the left channel. 
2. Reduce the overall gain of the vocal in both channels. 

Note: Both tracks have had basic mastering done, including mild EQ, normalization, gain adjustment, and downsample to 44/16.  Gear used was Church CA-14 cards > Sound Professionals 12V BB > Sony PCM-A10. 

https://soundcloud.com/user-81208688/01-lil-sample-no-processing?si=c4f53d97f07045ad8a4ad98c3c894955

https://soundcloud.com/user-81208688/02-lil-sample-music-rebalance?si=c4f53d97f07045ad8a4ad98c3c894955

Offline opsopcopolis

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^^ that’s what it sounds like to me. Standing close to the stage, direct sound from stage in one mice, PA in the other. Seems the solution would be to move bak and center on the stack, even with omnis you’ll still end up with a portly balanced tape (although easier to fix than the cards

No, this was not the situation at all.  I was in the sweet spot, dead center in front of the stage between the two monitors and about 2/3 back from the stage.  75% of the time  this produces a well balanced recording in this room, but 25% of the time I get vocals dominant in one channel.  The stage  is on the long wall in a rectangular room, resulting in the ceiling mounted PA monitors being farther apart than they should be.  The room desperately needs a center fill channel.  I just wish I could find a way to reduce that 25% figure but I'm not sure what else I can do.  I'm guessing the mic on my right shirt collar must have shifted too far outward.  I have to remember to get my shirt starched at the cleaners.

If that's the case and what you're hearing in the recording is NOT what you're hearing in the tape, omnis will make a huge difference as the orientation of the capsules will have a significantly smaller effect on the pickup. That said, the change in balance is weird, I'd expect one channel to be quieter than the other, not pickup entirely different signal

Unfortunately, omnis would be counterproductive in this situation.  Remember, this is a stealth recording with small mics clipped to a shirt collar.  As with must rock clubs, the room is filled with screaming drunken idiots.  It's hard enough keeping away from them as it is.  Cards are just mandatory in such situations. 

I've come up with what I think is a good result.  Is there an easy way for me to post samples here?

When you think about it purely in theoretical terms of pickup pattern, yeah, but that’s not how it turns out in practice. I’ve been stealthing with omnis in situations like that for years with generally great results. Your body acts as a baffle to block most of the sound from behind you, and the music will drown out most talkers around you the same way it does with cards. On top of that, the omnis are way more forgiving to body position and movement, so I can be less of a statue if I want to. It actually ends up being more of an issue at quiet jazz club style shows, picking up dishes/glasses/waiters more than it does talkers at loud shows.

Happy to provide some samples if you’re interested
« Last Edit: October 26, 2021, 11:35:01 PM by opsopcopolis »
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https://soundcloud.com/user-81208688/01-lil-sample-no-processing?si=c4f53d97f07045ad8a4ad98c3c894955

https://soundcloud.com/user-81208688/02-lil-sample-music-rebalance?si=c4f53d97f07045ad8a4ad98c3c894955

Maybe it's just me, but I don't hear unbalanced vocals in either of those samples — vocals seem reasonably centered, but the instruments are marginally skewed to one side, as you would get if you were centered between the PA stacks but the amps/drums weren't centered on the stage.

Either way, I agree with opsopcopolis that it's worth giving omnis a try, especially if you're using shoulder-clipped mics to record loud music in a room where you can set up in the sweet spot. Maybe run a test for an opening band that you don't care about?

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+1 

Very good tape, a little out of balance, but not bad.  I always run Phase and De-Click on every audience tape, and on this one I would run center extract or re-balance with a vocal extract. 
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Offline jj69

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+1 

Very good tape, a little out of balance, but not bad.  I always run Phase and De-Click on every audience tape, and on this one I would run center extract or re-balance with a vocal extract.

Scooter123: Do you mean you use the Phase and D-Click features in RX?  What do they do and how do you use them?  What about Center Extract - does that just create a mono version? 

When you say re-balance with a vocal extract, I believe that's what I did?

I should have stated from the outset that I tend to be hypercritical and hypersensitive to things like this, so when I say the recording is a mess, many people would consider that exaggeration.  Things like this drive me crazy, in large part because I know how good recordings in this room have been in the past - so I think it's a preventable problem if I could just find a way to prevent it. 

Another frustrating thing about this show was that the vocals (and the drums to a lesser extent) were mixed too high, which leaves the rhythm guitar - the key instrument for a metal band - far too low in the mix.  This is why I reduced the gain of the vocal track in both channels. 

Offline jj69

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Maybe it's just me, but I don't hear unbalanced vocals in either of those samples — vocals seem reasonably centered, but the instruments are marginally skewed to one side, as you would get if you were centered between the PA stacks but the amps/drums weren't centered on the stage.

Yes, the vocals are skewed somewhat to the right.  For me, much too far to the right (but as I said, I'm hypersensitive to such things) and I always master while wearing headphones.  Rhythm guitar is skewed left because that's was where the guitarist was positioned on stage.  Oddly, the guitar solos are well centered, which I'm guessing had something to do with the mix. 

It's the vocal position that bothers me the most.  My goal is always to at least center drums and vocals.  Otherwise, I will always find the positioning distracting. 

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Another frustrating thing about this show was that the vocals (and the drums to a lesser extent) were mixed too high, which leaves the rhythm guitar - the key instrument for a metal band - far too low in the mix.  This is why I reduced the gain of the vocal track in both channels.

There's a certain point, IMO, where trying to change stuff like this is pointless. We're capturing the performance. A shitty mix can be a major bummer, but it's the performance and you're just gonna cause yourself a bunch of grief trying to fix it
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Offline Scooter123

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Yeah, I run Phase and De-Click from RX7 on every tape, a trick I learned from the JEMs folks. 

Yes, Center Extract gets you a two channel mono file which borrows some of the music from each channel.  I say some because bit doesn’t just mix the two together (sum them) but creates a new track which has some left and some right, how wide a swath is adjustable.  But now that I think about it summing the two together might be a nice track. 

The idea is by creating a bunch of extracts called stems in RX7 parlance, you then mix them together in your DAW of choice (I use Reaper) and give each the weight they deserve using your own ears.
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What does De-click do?

Do you run that and phase first, at the start of your workflow, or at the end?

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What does De-click do?

Do you run that and phase first, at the start of your workflow, or at the end?

Sorry, I don't understand how/why you're using "Phase" either.
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What does De-click do?

Do you run that and phase first, at the start of your workflow, or at the end?

Sorry, I don't understand how/why you're using "Phase" either.

Hmmmm, learned something new today, glad I got out of bed...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSV5ocyfKLA
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"Don't ever take an all or nothing attitude when it comes to making a difference
and being beautiful and making the world a beautiful place through your actions.
Every little bit is registered.  Every little bit.  So be as beautiful as you can as often as you can"

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Phase in RX7 is the shifting of the sound by mechanical means, in other words, for a brief instant, the left channel is getting more sound or sound quicker than the right or in a different direction.  It is not the sound engineer's definition of phase, where the wave curves are opposite the ones in the other channel. 

It is generally caused microphones are attached to the shoulders, the collar or the head and the taper moves his or her body causing the recording to be slightly out of phase.  RX7 goes through a learning phase (no pun intended) to analyze the recording to determine if portions are out of phase, then adjusts the channels in very short intervals to increase the gain in that out of phase channel.  The sensitivity, the amount of correction, and the time segments are adjustable in RX7. 

This is an over-simplification, but I invite you folks to try it on a throw away recording, making 10 seconds facing the stage and 10 seconds facing left and 10 seconds facing right.  RX7 adjusts for these otherwise imperceptible head movements. 

I am no audio expert.  But I learned this trick from the JEMs folks who literally do this on every audience tape.  It works. 
Regards,
Scooter123

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Phase in RX7 is the shifting of the sound by mechanical means, in other words, for a brief instant, the left channel is getting more sound or sound quicker than the right or in a different direction.  It is not the sound engineer's definition of phase, where the wave curves are opposite the ones in the other channel. 

It is generally caused microphones are attached to the shoulders, the collar or the head and the taper moves his or her body causing the recording to be slightly out of phase.  RX7 goes through a learning phase (no pun intended) to analyze the recording to determine if portions are out of phase, then adjusts the channels in very short intervals to increase the gain in that out of phase channel.  The sensitivity, the amount of correction, and the time segments are adjustable in RX7. 

This is an over-simplification, but I invite you folks to try it on a throw away recording, making 10 seconds facing the stage and 10 seconds facing left and 10 seconds facing right.  RX7 adjusts for these otherwise imperceptible head movements. 

I am no audio expert.  But I learned this trick from the JEMs folks who literally do this on every audience tape.  It works.

Thanks much for the hint.  I will be adding this step to my workflow.  I tried it on some brass instrument waveforms, and it works there, too.

Do you have any good starting parameters for the de-click operation?
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"Don't ever take an all or nothing attitude when it comes to making a difference
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Offline Scooter123

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I’ll fire up RX7 and give you the settings.   They are a direct rip off from JEMs, so whatever they do, I do.  I’ll do this tomorrow. The starting parameters are pretty low, so you’ll notice an improvement but not a remarkable wow moment. 
   
I’ll say this.  I make a 1-2 minute composite recording to play with, consisting of 10-15 second excerpts in a few locations.  RX7 takes FOREVER for some functions like center extract and music balance, and I like to run the test tape through the particular process and listen and look at the wave file.   I then play around with the settings.   You can really fuck up a recording so less is more. 
Regards,
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Offline Scooter123

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De-Click:  Multi-Band Setting, Sensitivity 6.1, Frequency Skew 6.0, Click Widening 0

Phase:  Default Setting.  I leave rotation alone, and run Suggest Adaptive Phase Rotation, and let RX7 do its thing. 
Regards,
Scooter123

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Offline jj69

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Scooter123 - Thanks so much for this.  Can't wait to try these settings!

Also, what does DeClick do???  Remove clapping?  Won't it also remove a lot of percussion?
« Last Edit: October 31, 2021, 10:28:05 PM by jj69 »

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Scooter123 - Thanks so much for this.  Can't wait to try these settings!

Also, what does DeClick do???  Remove clapping?  Won't it also remove a lot of percussion?

I think be saying “DeClick” the person means to unselect that option in the menu op
tion.
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Scooter123 - Thanks so much for this.  Can't wait to try these settings!

Also, what does DeClick do???  Remove clapping?  Won't it also remove a lot of percussion?

I think be saying “DeClick” the person means to unselect that option in the menu op
tion.

No, "De-click" is an Izotope filter. It removes clicks (as in from vinyl surface noise), but also, as I'm discovering in my first 24 hours as an Izotope RX Elements owner, can get rid of small crackles and other unwanted noise, which can be hugely helpful on certain recordings.

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and clapping. 
Regards,
Scooter123

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DeClick routines generally target brief impulses that are not common to both channels.  In other words, those that tend to be found only, or mostly in one channel but not the other.

Seems like the RX Phase tool samples a section to determine the phase relationship between channels across several frequency bands, then seeks to retain that phase relationship if it shifts in other sections.  If that is the mechanism, you'll need find a good "centered" section to sample for it to apply that relationship elsewhere.  It is possible that it could prove helpful in reducing wind-phasing problems as well as knocked-ajar microphone arrangements and unintended head rotation effects with head-worn rigs. 

By contrast RePhase manipulates the overall baseline phase relationship between channels, rather than actively modifying other portions of the file to match a specific target region.
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Offline jj69

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Seems like the RX Phase tool samples a section to determine the phase relationship between channels across several frequency bands, then seeks to retain that phase relationship if it shifts in other sections.  If that is the mechanism, you'll need find a good "centered" section to sample for it to apply that relationship elsewhere.  It is possible that it could prove helpful in reducing wind-phasing problems as well as knocked-ajar microphone arrangements and unintended head rotation effects with head-worn rigs. 

If this is what it's supposed to do, then it doesn't work.  There is a nicely centered section on my recording.  When I sample that and apply it to the full waveform, the result sounds no different to my ears! 

It seems few people fully understand what these tools do.  What is this "JEM" group that Scooter123 got his ideas from.  Perhaps they have more detailed information about how to use RX? 


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In that case there may be, and likely are other reasons that the vocals sound un-centered other than a change in of the phase relationship between channels across different sections.  That tool probably targets rather subtle phase changes.  More of a polish thing.  I've not used it myself.

[edit- JEMS is a group of tapers famous in these circles for making quality recordings of big name acts in 70's and 80's under difficult conditions.  They have recently been remastering and re-releasing those cassette based recordings using modern digital tools such as these.  Some of the techniques they use for improving cassette based recordings may or may not apply to modern digital recordings.  Whatever they do to improve the stealth recording related issues is more likely to be applicable though]
« Last Edit: November 03, 2021, 09:39:59 AM by Gutbucket »
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Offline EmRR

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From the RX manual:  The Phase module balances asymmetric waveforms by rotating signal phase. Rotating the phase of a signal changes its peak values but doesn’t change its loudness, and otherwise has no audible effect on the signal.

This can be to make it such that one can maximize level through normalization, without limiting.   It does not have a mode to adjust one signal relative to another that I can see.  Use of it on a bunch of mono tracks that are related could be a disaster. 
« Last Edit: November 02, 2021, 03:03:49 PM by EmRR »
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From the RX manual:  The Phase module balances asymmetric waveforms by rotating signal phase. Rotating the phase of a signal changes its peak values but doesn’t change its loudness, and otherwise has no audible effect on the signal.

This can be to make it such that one can maximize level through normalization, without limiting.   It does not have a mode to adjust one signal relative to another that I can see.  Use of it on a bunch of mono tracks that are related could be a disaster.

Yes, my understanding is that this feature is essentially just a phase rotator, designed to balance uneven wave forms. 

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From the RX manual:  The Phase module balances asymmetric waveforms by rotating signal phase. Rotating the phase of a signal changes its peak values but doesn’t change its loudness, and otherwise has no audible effect on the signal.

This can be to make it such that one can maximize level through normalization, without limiting.   It does not have a mode to adjust one signal relative to another that I can see.  Use of it on a bunch of mono tracks that are related could be a disaster.

Yes, my understanding is that this feature is essentially just a phase rotator, designed to balance uneven wave forms.


It does tend to sound different too, despite what they say.  Most obvious with voices or horns, which are naturally asymmetric.  It's more of a broadcast trick, if you need maximum coverage within licensed peak limits. 
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JEMS (not JEM)   or, in the old days GEMS.     yup, I'm being THAT guy.... ;D

Search that name on here. They post their work frequently.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2021, 06:55:41 AM by rocksuitcase »
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It works to correct head movement.  Try it.  Do 30 seconds straight ahead, then 30 seconds moving your head left and right from the sound source.  You can hear the issue first hand.  Then use Phase in RX7 and it will correct that. 

Again, I don't have the technical knowledge of Mr. Bucket or others here, but I know it works.  Check it out and you'll see. 
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It works to correct head movement.  Try it.  Do 30 seconds straight ahead, then 30 seconds moving your head left and right from the sound source.  You can hear the issue first hand.  Then use Phase in RX7 and it will correct that. 

Again, I don't have the technical knowledge of Mr. Bucket or others here, but I know it works.  Check it out and you'll see.

I just tried it with a couple of recordings where I had turned my body (shoulder-mounted mics) to the side briefly, and it accomplished nothing on those. Which isn't to say it never works, just YMMV.

Offline hoserama

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DeClick routines generally target brief impulses that are not common to both channels.  In other words, those that tend to be found only, or mostly in one channel but not the other.

Seems like the RX Phase tool samples a section to determine the phase relationship between channels across several frequency bands, then seeks to retain that phase relationship if it shifts in other sections.  If that is the mechanism, you'll need find a good "centered" section to sample for it to apply that relationship elsewhere.  It is possible that it could prove helpful in reducing wind-phasing problems as well as knocked-ajar microphone arrangements and unintended head rotation effects with head-worn rigs. 

By contrast RePhase manipulates the overall baseline phase relationship between channels, rather than actively modifying other portions of the file to match a specific target region.

Funny, I've never noticed any preference on spatial balance for RX's declicker. I've seen it zap claps that are dead center and others that are hard panned, no issues.

I use the same method as Scooter123, and find that almost every audience recording needs a little stereo adjustment. The phase/azimuth adjustor allows to account for the couple of samples that the left and right are off, usually due to just slightly less than perfect alignment with PA and/or position in a hat. I do it manually though, and don't use the automatic feature.
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^ Good to know.  I've not used the RX Declicker specifically, that's just how some of them have worked in the past
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Offline moondust.and.solitude

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I've been using the RX de-clicker for some time, and it works fabulous. I am very curious about the phase application though. Is this something you let run for the entire wav file or do you only use it in sections that the unbalance occurs?

 

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