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Author Topic: How can I prevent recordings with vocals in one channel and band in the other?  (Read 2565 times)

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Offline jj69

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Maybe it's just me, but I don't hear unbalanced vocals in either of those samples — vocals seem reasonably centered, but the instruments are marginally skewed to one side, as you would get if you were centered between the PA stacks but the amps/drums weren't centered on the stage.

Yes, the vocals are skewed somewhat to the right.  For me, much too far to the right (but as I said, I'm hypersensitive to such things) and I always master while wearing headphones.  Rhythm guitar is skewed left because that's was where the guitarist was positioned on stage.  Oddly, the guitar solos are well centered, which I'm guessing had something to do with the mix. 

It's the vocal position that bothers me the most.  My goal is always to at least center drums and vocals.  Otherwise, I will always find the positioning distracting. 

Offline opsopcopolis

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Another frustrating thing about this show was that the vocals (and the drums to a lesser extent) were mixed too high, which leaves the rhythm guitar - the key instrument for a metal band - far too low in the mix.  This is why I reduced the gain of the vocal track in both channels.

There's a certain point, IMO, where trying to change stuff like this is pointless. We're capturing the performance. A shitty mix can be a major bummer, but it's the performance and you're just gonna cause yourself a bunch of grief trying to fix it
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Offline Scooter123

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Yeah, I run Phase and De-Click from RX7 on every tape, a trick I learned from the JEMs folks. 

Yes, Center Extract gets you a two channel mono file which borrows some of the music from each channel.  I say some because bit doesn’t just mix the two together (sum them) but creates a new track which has some left and some right, how wide a swath is adjustable.  But now that I think about it summing the two together might be a nice track. 

The idea is by creating a bunch of extracts called stems in RX7 parlance, you then mix them together in your DAW of choice (I use Reaper) and give each the weight they deserve using your own ears.
Regards,
Scooter123

mk41 > N Box  > Sony M-10
mk4 > N Box > Sony M-10

Offline jj69

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What does De-click do?

Do you run that and phase first, at the start of your workflow, or at the end?

Offline capnhook

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What does De-click do?

Do you run that and phase first, at the start of your workflow, or at the end?

Sorry, I don't understand how/why you're using "Phase" either.
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Offline capnhook

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What does De-click do?

Do you run that and phase first, at the start of your workflow, or at the end?

Sorry, I don't understand how/why you're using "Phase" either.

Hmmmm, learned something new today, glad I got out of bed...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSV5ocyfKLA
Proud member of the reality-based community

BSCS-L->JB-mod [NAK CM-300 (CP-3) and/or (CP-1)]->LSD2->CA CAFS-Omni->Sony ECM-907**Apogee MiniMe Rev. C->CA Ugly II->**Edirol OCM R-44->Tascam DR-22WL->Sony TCD-D8


"Don't ever take an all or nothing attitude when it comes to making a difference
and being beautiful and making the world a beautiful place through your actions.
Every little bit is registered.  Every little bit.  So be as beautiful as you can as often as you can"

"It'll never be over, 'till we learn."
 
"My dream is to get a bus and get the band and just go coast to coast. Just about everything else except music, is anti-musical.  That's it.  Music's the thing." - Jeb Puryear

Offline Scooter123

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Phase in RX7 is the shifting of the sound by mechanical means, in other words, for a brief instant, the left channel is getting more sound or sound quicker than the right or in a different direction.  It is not the sound engineer's definition of phase, where the wave curves are opposite the ones in the other channel. 

It is generally caused microphones are attached to the shoulders, the collar or the head and the taper moves his or her body causing the recording to be slightly out of phase.  RX7 goes through a learning phase (no pun intended) to analyze the recording to determine if portions are out of phase, then adjusts the channels in very short intervals to increase the gain in that out of phase channel.  The sensitivity, the amount of correction, and the time segments are adjustable in RX7. 

This is an over-simplification, but I invite you folks to try it on a throw away recording, making 10 seconds facing the stage and 10 seconds facing left and 10 seconds facing right.  RX7 adjusts for these otherwise imperceptible head movements. 

I am no audio expert.  But I learned this trick from the JEMs folks who literally do this on every audience tape.  It works. 
Regards,
Scooter123

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Offline capnhook

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Phase in RX7 is the shifting of the sound by mechanical means, in other words, for a brief instant, the left channel is getting more sound or sound quicker than the right or in a different direction.  It is not the sound engineer's definition of phase, where the wave curves are opposite the ones in the other channel. 

It is generally caused microphones are attached to the shoulders, the collar or the head and the taper moves his or her body causing the recording to be slightly out of phase.  RX7 goes through a learning phase (no pun intended) to analyze the recording to determine if portions are out of phase, then adjusts the channels in very short intervals to increase the gain in that out of phase channel.  The sensitivity, the amount of correction, and the time segments are adjustable in RX7. 

This is an over-simplification, but I invite you folks to try it on a throw away recording, making 10 seconds facing the stage and 10 seconds facing left and 10 seconds facing right.  RX7 adjusts for these otherwise imperceptible head movements. 

I am no audio expert.  But I learned this trick from the JEMs folks who literally do this on every audience tape.  It works.

Thanks much for the hint.  I will be adding this step to my workflow.  I tried it on some brass instrument waveforms, and it works there, too.

Do you have any good starting parameters for the de-click operation?
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"Don't ever take an all or nothing attitude when it comes to making a difference
and being beautiful and making the world a beautiful place through your actions.
Every little bit is registered.  Every little bit.  So be as beautiful as you can as often as you can"

"It'll never be over, 'till we learn."
 
"My dream is to get a bus and get the band and just go coast to coast. Just about everything else except music, is anti-musical.  That's it.  Music's the thing." - Jeb Puryear

Offline Scooter123

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I’ll fire up RX7 and give you the settings.   They are a direct rip off from JEMs, so whatever they do, I do.  I’ll do this tomorrow. The starting parameters are pretty low, so you’ll notice an improvement but not a remarkable wow moment. 
   
I’ll say this.  I make a 1-2 minute composite recording to play with, consisting of 10-15 second excerpts in a few locations.  RX7 takes FOREVER for some functions like center extract and music balance, and I like to run the test tape through the particular process and listen and look at the wave file.   I then play around with the settings.   You can really fuck up a recording so less is more. 
Regards,
Scooter123

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Offline Scooter123

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De-Click:  Multi-Band Setting, Sensitivity 6.1, Frequency Skew 6.0, Click Widening 0

Phase:  Default Setting.  I leave rotation alone, and run Suggest Adaptive Phase Rotation, and let RX7 do its thing. 
Regards,
Scooter123

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Offline jj69

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Scooter123 - Thanks so much for this.  Can't wait to try these settings!

Also, what does DeClick do???  Remove clapping?  Won't it also remove a lot of percussion?
« Last Edit: October 31, 2021, 10:28:05 PM by jj69 »

Offline neutrino

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Scooter123 - Thanks so much for this.  Can't wait to try these settings!

Also, what does DeClick do???  Remove clapping?  Won't it also remove a lot of percussion?

I think be saying “DeClick” the person means to unselect that option in the menu op
tion.
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Online nulldogmas

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Scooter123 - Thanks so much for this.  Can't wait to try these settings!

Also, what does DeClick do???  Remove clapping?  Won't it also remove a lot of percussion?

I think be saying “DeClick” the person means to unselect that option in the menu op
tion.

No, "De-click" is an Izotope filter. It removes clicks (as in from vinyl surface noise), but also, as I'm discovering in my first 24 hours as an Izotope RX Elements owner, can get rid of small crackles and other unwanted noise, which can be hugely helpful on certain recordings.

Offline Scooter123

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and clapping. 
Regards,
Scooter123

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mk4 > N Box > Sony M-10

Offline Gutbucket

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DeClick routines generally target brief impulses that are not common to both channels.  In other words, those that tend to be found only, or mostly in one channel but not the other.

Seems like the RX Phase tool samples a section to determine the phase relationship between channels across several frequency bands, then seeks to retain that phase relationship if it shifts in other sections.  If that is the mechanism, you'll need find a good "centered" section to sample for it to apply that relationship elsewhere.  It is possible that it could prove helpful in reducing wind-phasing problems as well as knocked-ajar microphone arrangements and unintended head rotation effects with head-worn rigs. 

By contrast RePhase manipulates the overall baseline phase relationship between channels, rather than actively modifying other portions of the file to match a specific target region.
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