Become a Site Supporter and Never see Ads again!

Author Topic: How can I prevent recordings with vocals in one channel and band in the other?  (Read 2588 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline jj69

  • (3)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 192
Seems like the RX Phase tool samples a section to determine the phase relationship between channels across several frequency bands, then seeks to retain that phase relationship if it shifts in other sections.  If that is the mechanism, you'll need find a good "centered" section to sample for it to apply that relationship elsewhere.  It is possible that it could prove helpful in reducing wind-phasing problems as well as knocked-ajar microphone arrangements and unintended head rotation effects with head-worn rigs. 

If this is what it's supposed to do, then it doesn't work.  There is a nicely centered section on my recording.  When I sample that and apply it to the full waveform, the result sounds no different to my ears! 

It seems few people fully understand what these tools do.  What is this "JEM" group that Scooter123 got his ideas from.  Perhaps they have more detailed information about how to use RX? 


Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • (15)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 14378
  • Gender: Male
  • "and the rowers keep on rowing!"
In that case there may be, and likely are other reasons that the vocals sound un-centered other than a change in of the phase relationship between channels across different sections.  That tool probably targets rather subtle phase changes.  More of a polish thing.  I've not used it myself.

[edit- JEMS is a group of tapers famous in these circles for making quality recordings of big name acts in 70's and 80's under difficult conditions.  They have recently been remastering and re-releasing those cassette based recordings using modern digital tools such as these.  Some of the techniques they use for improving cassette based recordings may or may not apply to modern digital recordings.  Whatever they do to improve the stealth recording related issues is more likely to be applicable though]
« Last Edit: November 03, 2021, 09:39:59 AM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Online EmRR

  • (4)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 661
    • ElectroMagnetic Radiation Recorders
From the RX manual:  The Phase module balances asymmetric waveforms by rotating signal phase. Rotating the phase of a signal changes its peak values but doesn’t change its loudness, and otherwise has no audible effect on the signal.

This can be to make it such that one can maximize level through normalization, without limiting.   It does not have a mode to adjust one signal relative to another that I can see.  Use of it on a bunch of mono tracks that are related could be a disaster. 
« Last Edit: November 02, 2021, 03:03:49 PM by EmRR »
Mics: DPA 4060 w/MPS 6030 PSU/DAD6001/DAD4099, Neumann KM 131, KMR 81i, Oktava MK 012, Sennheiser MKH 105, MKH 20, MKH 30, MKH 40, MKH 800 TWIN, lots of other studio appropriate choices
Recorders: Zoom F8n, Sony MZ-R50, portable MOTU based multitrack DAW for client work

Offline jj69

  • (3)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 192
From the RX manual:  The Phase module balances asymmetric waveforms by rotating signal phase. Rotating the phase of a signal changes its peak values but doesn’t change its loudness, and otherwise has no audible effect on the signal.

This can be to make it such that one can maximize level through normalization, without limiting.   It does not have a mode to adjust one signal relative to another that I can see.  Use of it on a bunch of mono tracks that are related could be a disaster.

Yes, my understanding is that this feature is essentially just a phase rotator, designed to balance uneven wave forms. 

Online EmRR

  • (4)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 661
    • ElectroMagnetic Radiation Recorders
From the RX manual:  The Phase module balances asymmetric waveforms by rotating signal phase. Rotating the phase of a signal changes its peak values but doesn’t change its loudness, and otherwise has no audible effect on the signal.

This can be to make it such that one can maximize level through normalization, without limiting.   It does not have a mode to adjust one signal relative to another that I can see.  Use of it on a bunch of mono tracks that are related could be a disaster.

Yes, my understanding is that this feature is essentially just a phase rotator, designed to balance uneven wave forms.


It does tend to sound different too, despite what they say.  Most obvious with voices or horns, which are naturally asymmetric.  It's more of a broadcast trick, if you need maximum coverage within licensed peak limits. 
Mics: DPA 4060 w/MPS 6030 PSU/DAD6001/DAD4099, Neumann KM 131, KMR 81i, Oktava MK 012, Sennheiser MKH 105, MKH 20, MKH 30, MKH 40, MKH 800 TWIN, lots of other studio appropriate choices
Recorders: Zoom F8n, Sony MZ-R50, portable MOTU based multitrack DAW for client work

Offline rocksuitcase

  • (3)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 7173
  • Gender: Male
    • RockSuitcase: stage photography
JEMS (not JEM)   or, in the old days GEMS.     yup, I'm being THAT guy.... ;D

Search that name on here. They post their work frequently.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2021, 06:55:41 AM by rocksuitcase »
music IS love

When you get confused, listen to the music play!

Mics:         AKG460|CK61|CK1|CK3|CK8|Beyer M 201E|DPA 4060 SK
Recorders:Marantz PMD661 OADE Concert mod; Tascam DR680 MKI

Offline Scooter123

  • "I am not an alcoholic. I am a drunk. Drunks don't go to meetings."
  • (9)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 2777
It works to correct head movement.  Try it.  Do 30 seconds straight ahead, then 30 seconds moving your head left and right from the sound source.  You can hear the issue first hand.  Then use Phase in RX7 and it will correct that. 

Again, I don't have the technical knowledge of Mr. Bucket or others here, but I know it works.  Check it out and you'll see. 
Regards,
Scooter123

mk41 > N Box  > Sony M-10
mk4 > N Box > Sony M-10

Online nulldogmas

  • (6)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1194
    • How I Escaped My Uncertain Fate
It works to correct head movement.  Try it.  Do 30 seconds straight ahead, then 30 seconds moving your head left and right from the sound source.  You can hear the issue first hand.  Then use Phase in RX7 and it will correct that. 

Again, I don't have the technical knowledge of Mr. Bucket or others here, but I know it works.  Check it out and you'll see.

I just tried it with a couple of recordings where I had turned my body (shoulder-mounted mics) to the side briefly, and it accomplished nothing on those. Which isn't to say it never works, just YMMV.

Offline hoserama

  • (1)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 376
  • Gender: Male
DeClick routines generally target brief impulses that are not common to both channels.  In other words, those that tend to be found only, or mostly in one channel but not the other.

Seems like the RX Phase tool samples a section to determine the phase relationship between channels across several frequency bands, then seeks to retain that phase relationship if it shifts in other sections.  If that is the mechanism, you'll need find a good "centered" section to sample for it to apply that relationship elsewhere.  It is possible that it could prove helpful in reducing wind-phasing problems as well as knocked-ajar microphone arrangements and unintended head rotation effects with head-worn rigs. 

By contrast RePhase manipulates the overall baseline phase relationship between channels, rather than actively modifying other portions of the file to match a specific target region.

Funny, I've never noticed any preference on spatial balance for RX's declicker. I've seen it zap claps that are dead center and others that are hard panned, no issues.

I use the same method as Scooter123, and find that almost every audience recording needs a little stereo adjustment. The phase/azimuth adjustor allows to account for the couple of samples that the left and right are off, usually due to just slightly less than perfect alignment with PA and/or position in a hat. I do it manually though, and don't use the automatic feature.
Audio: Countryman B3 + AT853(hypers/cards/subcards) + SBD feeds
Wireless Receivers: Lots of those
Antennas: Lots of those
Cables: Lots of those
Recorders: Cymatic Utrack24, Cymatic LR16, RME Multiface, Zoom F8, (3) Tascam 680, (2) Tascam 2D, Zoom H6, Zoom H4n, and a graveyard of irivers/nomads/minidiscs.

Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • (15)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 14378
  • Gender: Male
  • "and the rowers keep on rowing!"
^ Good to know.  I've not used the RX Declicker specifically, that's just how some of them have worked in the past
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline moondust.and.solitude

  • (1)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 50
  • Gender: Male
  • Holding hands singing kumbaya
I've been using the RX de-clicker for some time, and it works fabulous. I am very curious about the phase application though. Is this something you let run for the entire wav file or do you only use it in sections that the unbalance occurs?

 

RSS | Mobile
Page created in 0.048 seconds with 34 queries.
© 2002-2021 Taperssection.com
Powered by SMF