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Gear / Technical Help => Ask The Tapers => Topic started by: Boctaper on February 10, 2009, 08:25:59 PM
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Hey Friends
Im just starting to enjoy this new hobby.Ive only taped a few rock shows with my old SONY TCM-454VK Cassette recorder:-( Really bad sound as you would guess.Ive been looking for a new recorder, what do you recommend out of these:
Sony PCM-D50
Zoom H2
Olympus LS-10
Tascam DR100
Any Idea on mic's? I don't know where to begin for taping live shows,Do I really need a mic?
what about Core Sound Binaural mic's?any good?
Thanks for your help my friends
Brian
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There have been *many* excellent tapes made with CSBs.
D50.
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You probably know all this already: http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,33610.0.html
This is really good: http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,35004.0.html
Running crappy mics into a supergood recorder will more than likely get you crappy recordings. I recommend something better than CSBs, although great tapes have been made with them. Another inexpensive alternative are the Church Audio mics being sold here (do a search). Lots of good mid-priced set, like the AKG460s, are available in the Yard Sale.
As for recorders, I would say the Marantz PMD661 with an Oade mod... Or the Sony PCM-D50...
Terry
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I really recommend the R09HR. Its a great recorder for not a lot of money.
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Check out Chris' mics above. (Church Audio)
I am a D50 believer.
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Ok,I think im going with the Sony Pcm-50
Thanks guys
Now the hard part Mic's? Tons of choices :o Im looking for stealth mic's now,I just checked that topic :-[ Crazy!
Thinking:
http://www.sonicsense.com/core.htm
or
My friend said he saw a mic that goes around your ears or something ???
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Crappy mics..lol. That's funny. I've never owned a pair, however I have piles if excellent recordings made with them..which is what I thought this was all about..guess I was wrong. What exactly puts a mic into the "crap" category nowadays ?
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My vote for starter stealth rig:
Church Audio CA-11 > Battery Box or Church Audio 9100 preamp > Edirol R-09HR
That would run around $500 or so. If your budget is higher than that, then that gives you more options.
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Now the hard part Mic's? Tons of choices :o Im looking for stealth mic's now,I just checked that topic :-[ Crazy!
Many here use:
Church Audio
Sound Professionals
Microphone Madness
DPA
Nevaton
Schoeps
...to a lesser extent, Core Sound
I've owned all but the Nevatons. It's a tough choice. Right now I am comfortable with my CA-14's. Don't let size or how you will stealth sway you. Stay focused on the quality and you'll engineer a way to comfortably record a concert.
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Ok,cool!
Church Audio it is 8)
http://cgi.ebay.com/STEREO-MICROPHONES-PREAMP-4-R09-MT2-DAT-AND-MINIDISC_W0QQitemZ250296589780QQihZ015QQcategoryZ3281QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153.l1262
Anything else I need to have the whole set up?
Sony Pcm-D50<Church audio with Preamp,mic!
So I do forsure need a preamp? I can't just plug in a mic right into my Sony Pcm-d50? amp is just for better sound from the Mic?
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Anything else I need to have the whole set up?
Sony Pcm-D50<Church audio with Preamp,mic!
So I do forsure need a preamp? I can't just plug in a mic right into my Sony Pcm-d50? amp is just for better sound from the Mic?
I believe you can run the CA-11 off plug-in power from the D50 (or R-09HR) if you get the '2.7k mod' for the CA-11 mics. The preamp is necessary mostly if you need to add 'clean' gain, e.g. for quieter/acoustic type shows, although many believe that it also improves the sonic quality of your recordings. The 9100 preamp, in my experience, is very quiet (low noise floor) so that you have less hiss when you need to boost levels 'in post' (editing on your computer). But for loud rock shows, you could get away with just the mics with 2.7k mod and the D50. I'm sure Mr. Church will chime in if that's incorrect. :P
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Cool! I can't wait to get started! Thanks for all the help 8)
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Anything else I need to have the whole set up?
Sony Pcm-D50<Church audio with Preamp,mic!
So I do forsure need a preamp? I can't just plug in a mic right into my Sony Pcm-d50? amp is just for better sound from the Mic?
I believe you can run the CA-11 off plug-in power from the D50 (or R-09HR) if you get the '2.7k mod' for the CA-11 mics. The preamp is necessary mostly if you need to add 'clean' gain, e.g. for quieter/acoustic type shows, although many believe that it also improves the sonic quality of your recordings. The 9100 preamp, in my experience, is very quiet (low noise floor) so that you have less hiss when you need to boost levels 'in post' (editing on your computer). But for loud rock shows, you could get away with just the mics with 2.7k mod and the D50. I'm sure Mr. Church will chime in if that's incorrect. :P
You cant run a pair of my mics directly from the D50 I dont think it has the same amount of bias voltage as the R09HR. Also one thing to keep in mind my preamp has less self noise then the D50 so depending on what your trying to record you might need an external preamp.
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Ok,cool!
Church Audio it is 8)
http://cgi.ebay.com/STEREO-MICROPHONES-PREAMP-4-R09-MT2-DAT-AND-MINIDISC_W0QQitemZ250296589780QQihZ015QQcategoryZ3281QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153.l1262
Anything else I need to have the whole set up?
Sony Pcm-D50<Church audio with Preamp,mic!
So I do forsure need a preamp? I can't just plug in a mic right into my Sony Pcm-d50? amp is just for better sound from the Mic?
Dont get that setup. Its not good for what you want to do.
I dont want to get into selling in a public thread so if you have more questions please fire me off an email or a pm.
Chris
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Order from Chris here, not through eBay. You'll get a better deal. Give him plenty of time to build and ship (patience is a virtue) and you'll get a good product with excellent support.
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Ok,cool!
Church Audio it is 8)
http://cgi.ebay.com/STEREO-MICROPHONES-PREAMP-4-R09-MT2-DAT-AND-MINIDISC_W0QQitemZ250296589780QQihZ015QQcategoryZ3281QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153.l1262
Anything else I need to have the whole set up?
Sony Pcm-D50<Church audio with Preamp,mic!
So I do forsure need a preamp? I can't just plug in a mic right into my Sony Pcm-d50? amp is just for better sound from the Mic?
Dont get that setup. Its not good for what you want to do.
I dont want to get into selling in a public thread so if you have more questions please fire me off an email or a pm.
Chris
Pm sent 8)
Man,I didn't think it would be this hard :-[
Now its between
Pcm-D50 and R09HR
I mainly record rock shows=
Blue Oyster Cult (record it last year with my crap sony tape recorder) B recording on dbetree ::)
Shinedown
Mark Knopfler (Again with my Sony tape recorder) B- recording on dbetree plus ran out of tape/missing 5 songs :-\
Fates Warning
Audioslave
April wine (seeing them in 3 weeks)
Well,stuff like this.
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Now its between
Pcm-D50 and R09HR
If you want to keep your setup small and only tape loud shows, you can start by picking up an R-09HR and run mics directly into it. If you feel that you want to tape quiet stuff later on, but stick to stealth size - upgrade path CA-9100.
If you see yourself going open taping in the long run, the D50 will provide a better upgrade path, allowing digi-in. Can be paired with UA-5 or various high end AD's. You have more options, but your rig will be bulkier.
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Hey Guys
Im going to buy a new recorder Monday!Just post which one you would buy!
Sony D50
Or
R-09HR
Just what is better for you with features,sound and durable!Both I wouldn't mind getting! :-[
Thanks guys
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Hey Guys
Im going to buy a new recorder Monday!Just post which one you would buy!
Sony D50
Or
R-09HR
Just what is better for you with features,sound and durable!Both I wouldn't mind getting! :-[
Thanks guys
R09HR but there is also a d50 for sale cheap in the yardsale if its still there.
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I hate advising people to buy gear based on a popularity contest.
If most of the music you listen to dictates that you are a stealth taper, my vote goes for the R09HR. Advantages are (supposedly) a better analog input section than the Sony, and SD cards instead of those oddball sony cards. Plus it really is quite a bit smaller, and half the weight (7 oz versus 13oz per their respective websites).
If you anticipate getting more into "open taping" with big mics and preamp, the digi-in on the sony allows for future growth.
Here is a tape my friend made with Church Audio STC-11 (same as CA-11's right?) stage lip, directly into the R09HR mic in with no preamp. That's pretty small.
By the way... a big difference between omnis and cardioid mics. Omnis pick up all around, and in the right setting they are great, but in the wrong setting they are all crowd chatter. Regardless of the brand you buy, that is the case. If you can get cardioid mics pointed in the right direction they will pick up less noise.
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Hey Guys
Im going to buy a new recorder Monday!Just post which one you would buy!
Sony D50
Or
R-09HR
Just what is better for you with features,sound and durable!Both I wouldn't mind getting! :-[
Thanks guys
My recommendation would be the R-09HR. The D-50 looks big and bulky.
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I hate advising people to buy gear based on a popularity contest.
If most of the music you listen to dictates that you are a stealth taper, my vote goes for the R09HR. Advantages are (supposedly) a better analog input section than the Sony, and SD cards instead of those oddball sony cards. Plus it really is quite a bit smaller, and half the weight (7 oz versus 13oz per their respective websites).
If you anticipate getting more into "open taping" with big mics and preamp, the digi-in on the sony allows for future growth.
Here is a tape my friend made with Church Audio STC-11 (same as CA-11's right?) stage lip, directly into the R09HR mic in with no preamp. That's pretty small.
By the way... a big difference between omnis and cardioid mics. Omnis pick up all around, and in the right setting they are great, but in the wrong setting they are all crowd chatter. Regardless of the brand you buy, that is the case. If you can get cardioid mics pointed in the right direction they will pick up less noise.
Yes they are the same. I really recommend a battery box at the least when running my mics into a recorder but for low volume shows around 79 to 100db Max it can be done with out a battery box or preamp. Remember 100db for a bar band is very low.
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Hey Guys
Im going to buy a new recorder Monday!Just post which one you would buy!
Sony D50
Or
R-09HR
Just what is better for you with features,sound and durable!Both I wouldn't mind getting! :-[
Thanks guys
My recommendation would be the R-09HR. The D-50 looks big and bulky.
Ditto ;)
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Man,it's been a tough few days!
So, Im going with the R-09HR 8) I really was going to go for the sony but I thought about the sneaky sneaky part about it and what would be great for Loud rock shows! :P
I'll be getting this mic:
http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-CMC-8
Hope im set for a nice recording :D
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Hope im set for a nice recording :D
You'll be happy, at least for a while. Then one day you'll decide that maybe you get too much audience chatter and off you'll go buying more gear. And then you'll want to try something else ... more gear. You are now addicted! Welcome to the opium den ;D
BTW, you've made some good choices. There comes a point where you just have to jump in. As an old girlfriend of mine used to say, once you've bought it, quit shopping for it. The point being, be happy with what you bought and have no regrets. And my old girlfriend? Well, I should have kept shopping, I sure had some regrets there! Anyway, the shopping is over, the learning begins!
At this point you might want to join Team R-09 (http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,84382.0.html). They can help you with plenty of good advice. You'll also need some software to process your recordings but you can get decent stuff for free, like Audacity: http://audacity.sourceforge.net
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Hope im set for a nice recording :D
You'll be happy, at least for a while. Then one day you'll decide that maybe you get too much audience chatter and off you'll go buying more gear. And then you'll want to try something else ... more gear. You are now addicted! Welcome to the opium den ;D
BTW, you've made some good choices. There comes a point where you just have to jump in. As an old girlfriend of mine used to say, once you've bought it, quit shopping for it. The point being, be happy with what you bought and have no regrets. And my old girlfriend? Well, I should have kept shopping, I sure had some regrets there! Anyway, the shopping is over, the learning begins!
At this point you might want to join Team R-09 (http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,84382.0.html). They can help you with plenty of good advice. You'll also need some software to process your recordings but you can get decent stuff for free, like Audacity: http://audacity.sourceforge.net
Good advice. I am always upgrading my gear and I need to learn when enough is enough. Its a great hobby but like any hobby things can get out of hand real fast :)
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Hope im set for a nice recording :D
You'll be happy, at least for a while. Then one day you'll decide that maybe you get too much audience chatter and off you'll go buying more gear. And then you'll want to try something else ... more gear. You are now addicted! Welcome to the opium den ;D
BTW, you've made some good choices. There comes a point where you just have to jump in. As an old girlfriend of mine used to say, once you've bought it, quit shopping for it. The point being, be happy with what you bought and have no regrets. And my old girlfriend? Well, I should have kept shopping, I sure had some regrets there! Anyway, the shopping is over, the learning begins!
At this point you might want to join Team R-09 (http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,84382.0.html). They can help you with plenty of good advice. You'll also need some software to process your recordings but you can get decent stuff for free, like Audacity: http://audacity.sourceforge.net
Good advice. I am always upgrading my gear and I need to learn when enough is enough. Its a great hobby but like any hobby things can get out of hand real fast :)
Yeah,Ive just started and I think I'll have fun with this new hobby:-) Now,I have a question about Mic's- What is better, Binaural or Cardioid?
Man, so much stuff I need to learn about this new recording hobby :o
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Yeah,Ive just started and I think I'll have fun with this new hobby:-) Now,I have a question about Mic's- What is better, Binaural or Cardioid?
Man, so much stuff I need to learn about this new recording hobby :o
There is no "better" in this case, it all depends on what you want to do. Cardioid mics tend to pick up directionally in front of the mics, binaural are meant to be worn near or in your ears to approximate what you ears normally hear. Binaural mics are usually omni mics meaning they pick up all around, not just in front of the mic. Please be aware that much of what we "hear" is subject to psychoacoustics where your mind sorts out the sound. Recording tends to bring out the sounds your mind filters out at the time. Since I bet you want to record live music, I'll bet you would be happier with cardioid mics. Binaural may sound tempting, and I don't meant o dismiss it, but if you record in venues where people talk a lot you probably wont be so happy with them. The cardioid mics will pick up less noise around you and will focus more on the music in front of you. I think of it as the cardioids are for recording the music, binaurals are for recording the "experience."
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Yeah,Ive just started and I think I'll have fun with this new hobby:-) Now,I have a question about Mic's- What is better, Binaural or Cardioid?
Man, so much stuff I need to learn about this new recording hobby :o
There is no "better" in this case, it all depends on what you want to do. Cardioid mics tend to pick up directionally in front of the mics, binaural are meant to be worn near or in your ears to approximate what you ears normally hear. Binaural mics are usually omni mics meaning they pick up all around, not just in front of the mic. Please be aware that much of what we "hear" is subject to psychoacoustics where your mind sorts out the sound. Recording tends to bring out the sounds your mind filters out at the time. Since I bet you want to record live music, I'll bet you would be happier with cardioid mics. Binaural may sound tempting, and I don't meant o dismiss it, but if you record in venues where people talk a lot you probably wont be so happy with them. The cardioid mics will pick up less noise around you and will focus more on the music in front of you. I think of it as the cardioids are for recording the music, binaurals are for recording the "experience."
Ok,great!I did get the Cardioid mics :D Now Im very happy I picked them 8) Thanks again for your help my friend,Im very glad I got the right mic's.
I hope all my stuff comes tomorrow as I'll be going to Big Head Todd and the Monsters!Not heavy music but I like all kinds, so this will be good for my first little recording (if I get my stuff) As the band is ok with recording and is allowed at their shows ;D
2 more weeks its APRIL WINE and WARRENT!
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I hope all my stuff comes tomorrow as I'll be going to Big Head Todd and the Monsters!Not heavy music but I like all kinds, so this will be good for my first little recording (if I get my stuff) As the band is ok with recording and is allowed at their shows ;D
Any band that recorded a song with John Lee Hooker can't totally suck!
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FWIW, I ran that basic rig for five years and was totally happy with my recordings.
I posted lots of those recordings to the Archive and many people gave my recordings either 4 or 5 stars. While I do feel that my MUCH higher dollar rig is getting better recordings, the amount of $$ you have to pay for the incremental benefit of getting that higher quality is not worth it to many people...probably wouldn't be to me either if I added it all up. I have to admit, there are times when I wonder if I shouldn't just drop back to my old AT-853s or a CA-14 setup and just not worry about it because my recordings back then made me just as happy as the ones that I get now...although yeah I like the higher quality of what I'm recording now.
The thing is, I'm now two years beyond upgrading from that rig and I'm a hopeless dredg of a gear slut...a lowlife scumbag whose main purpose in life is to grudgingly satisfy my uncontrollable urges...not less than 7 to 10 times daily...by clicking on the Yard Sale to see what else might have gotten posted, that I most certainly don't need, and most certainly shouldn't buy, but for sure will send me into cold sweats contemplating the balance in my checking account + the total I could sell XX gear for - the cost of the the latest daily 'can't live without' piece of gear nirvana. Then I resist the urge and the whole cycle starts again an hour later when I click on the YS again and, gasp - OMG - can't believe my eyes, there listed is yet another CLWFAD (can't live without for another day) gadget!
::) Seriously...you've made a good choice.
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While I do feel that my MUCH higher dollar rig is getting better recordings, the amount of $$ you have to pay for the incremental benefit of getting that higher quality is not worth it to many people...probably wouldn't be to me either if I added it all up.
I figure the price/improvement ratio runs on some sort of geometric or even logarithmic scale. To improve the recording quality 10% requires 10 times the money, or something like that.
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FWIW, I ran that basic rig for five years and was totally happy with my recordings.
I posted lots of those recordings to the Archive and many people gave my recordings either 4 or 5 stars. While I do feel that my MUCH higher dollar rig is getting better recordings, the amount of $$ you have to pay for the incremental benefit of getting that higher quality is not worth it to many people...probably wouldn't be to me either if I added it all up. I have to admit, there are times when I wonder if I shouldn't just drop back to my old AT-853s or a CA-14 setup and just not worry about it because my recordings back then made me just as happy as the ones that I get now...although yeah I like the higher quality of what I'm recording now.
The thing is, I'm now two years beyond upgrading from that rig and I'm a hopeless dredg of a gear slut...a lowlife scumbag whose main purpose in life is to grudgingly satisfy my uncontrollable urges...not less than 7 to 10 times daily...by clicking on the Yard Sale to see what else might have gotten posted, that I most certainly don't need, and most certainly shouldn't buy, but for sure will send me into cold sweats contemplating the balance in my checking account + the total I could sell XX gear for - the cost of the the latest daily 'can't live without' piece of gear nirvana. Then I resist the urge and the whole cycle starts again an hour later when I click on the YS again and, gasp - OMG - can't believe my eyes, there listed is yet another CLWFAD (can't live without for another day) gadget!
::) Seriously...you've made a good choice.
Thanks Friend
Yeah,I think I will be happy with it as anything is better then my old Sony TCM-454VK tape recorder.HAHA
Thanks to my tax return I got a very good 1st set up!Spent $800 for everything and I think I will stick with it for a long time as I don't need the BEST sounding set up!I can handle an ok sounding show as I recorded BLUE OYSTER CULT last year with my crap Sony TCM and I really like the sound just from that!(had to turn up the sound a little<LOL)
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As others have mentioned, a few recommendations for your future sanity...
a) stay away from this board ;D
b) stay in tune with your taping objectives...what I mean by this is that your statement above indicates that you're like me when I started in that my main objective was that I just wanted a good sounding souvenier of a killer show that I'd attended so that I could relive the experience.
This is still an objective of mine, but honestly the hobby has become so much more than that for me now that I have become friends with lots of people on this list and friends with a good number of band member in the music community that really appreciate and depend on this medium to help them promote their music. I'm OK with that though because I derive alot of pleasure from this since I am basically a closet rock-star from birth anyway (aren't we all?) so this is my way of giving back what the industry gives to me.
c) don't start comparing the sound quality of your recordings to those that are made with more expensive rigs.
These are my warnings...now proceed with caution! ;D
I hope you realize that my diatribe about gear sluttiness a couple of messages up was poking fun at those of us that delve into the world of gear slut-ness. It's basically just a fun hobby that turns serious by virtue of the size of the dollars that get turned over. LOL.
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While I do feel that my MUCH higher dollar rig is getting better recordings, the amount of $$ you have to pay for the incremental benefit of getting that higher quality is not worth it to many people...probably wouldn't be to me either if I added it all up.
I figure the price/improvement ratio runs on some sort of geometric or even logarithmic scale. To improve the recording quality 10% requires 10 times the money, or something like that.
As someone that's on the side where he's spent too much, I'd like to think the I've spent 10 times more for my rig to get more than 10% sound improvement, but the basic concept holds true and the amount of value derived from the additional investment is totally subjective, for sure!
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Yeah, I realize the formula isn't exactly right nor does it cover all circumstances. But I do think that as you move up past a certain point, each level of improvement costs much more. You don't get 10% improvement for 10% more money. Where's that magic point where you get the biggest bang for the buck? Probably at the hand held digital recorder with decent external mics level. That configuration allows you to run low profile or to run open and to use various mic configurations. You can also pull soundboards or patch into another person's rig if desired. I think boctaper's selection will put him at that level. His next purchase should be a stand for the mics when running open.
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No debate on any of those points here cybergaloot (funny handle btw). Good luck with the new rig Mr. OP (original poster)
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I hope all my stuff comes tomorrow as I'll be going to Big Head Todd and the Monsters!Not heavy music but I like all kinds, so this will be good for my first little recording (if I get my stuff) As the band is ok with recording and is allowed at their shows ;D
Any band that recorded a song with John Lee Hooker can't totally suck!
WOW! I just recorded my first good sounding recording:-) Big Head Todd kicks ass!!1st time seeing them live,a great jamming band I must say!Im very happy with my set up! 8) Now on to some Hard rock shows,LOL! Maybe not Hard Hard rock, April Wine?HAHA
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Now on to some Hard rock shows,LOL! Maybe not Hard Hard rock, April Wine?HAHA
I saw/taped them last year and they were LOUD. Talk about your high SPL's. Make sure you are center in the venue as they pan the guitars from left to right during 21st Century Schizoid Man. I did a stack recording and it sounds good except for that tune. :P
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good luck brah, picked a great hobby, especialy if you LOVE MUSIC ;D ;)
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Binaural may sound tempting, and I don't meant o dismiss it, but if you record in venues where people talk a lot you probably wont be so happy with them. The cardioid mics will pick up less noise around you and will focus more on the music in front of you. I think of it as the cardioids are for recording the music, binaurals are for recording the "experience."
In general, that's good advice. There are certain situations where binaurals can come in real handy, though - not just for st*****, but for cases where the acoustics of the venue are an important part of the experience, and the audience is quiet. Think of a cathedral or chapel, for instance, or a classical concert. Binaurals are definitely NOT for a bar full of drunks! ;D
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Now on to some Hard rock shows,LOL! Maybe not Hard Hard rock, April Wine?HAHA
I saw/taped them last year and they were LOUD. Talk about your high SPL's. Make sure you are center in the venue as they pan the guitars from left to right during 21st Century Schizoid Man. I did a stack recording and it sounds good except for that tune. :P
I just taped the April wine show:-) Sound is not bad! Not sure why I had to turn my Edirol R-09HR to the max setting of input vol at 80 :-\ It never peaked once.Do I have a bad battery box or just mic that can't pick up much?The show was very loud ???
Don't know,Still learning :)
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Not sure why I had to turn my Edirol R-09HR to the max setting of input vol at 80 :-\ It never peaked once.Do I have a bad battery box or just mic that can't pick up much?
Sounds like a flat bbox battery to me. Check the voltage with a multimeter.
Also, did you go mic-in on the R09HR?
Can you replicate the same problem standing in front of your own stereo at home?
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I use the Line in
I will need to check a few things.I will try a new battery for the battery box ^-^
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Your Mikes are probably the issue. If you are using small format Mikes, they have less surface area and need more boosting. My suggestion is to get most of the gain from a preamp. Chris Church makes a nice small one. I crank his up all the way and set the Edirol for about 50-60 and in a small club get peaks of 12db. It needs a lot of boosting to get up to a decent 0db, and then flattening out with compression, but the recordings are very clean.
I have DPA Omnis and Sound Designs Cartoids, and like the DPA's better. I'd love a really Card, like the DPA or Schoeps---
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I use the Line in
If you don't have an external pre, you will need to go through mic-in, unless your mics provide a very hot signal.
You can test this at home, stand in front of your stereo and check your levels while playing loud music.