Topic: Stay with CMC-8 and SP-SB-3 _OR_ move to CA-11/STC-9000?

[adrianf74]

Hey Everybody:

Just got back into recording shows again after a four year hiatus (yeah, it's been some time).  Just did two shows in the past week or so and am using SP-CMC-8's (AT943) Cards with a SP-SB-3 battery box (which uses the mini 9v battery).  I'm finding my recordings, to my liking, a little muddy and murky which is one of the normal criticisms of the AT943's.

Now, I've listened to some shows from people using Church Audio CA-11's (and I've also listened to Chris' sample) and I'm quite impressed.  I'm wondering if it's a smart move to ditch my current setup and pick up the CA-11/STC-9000 combo?  I'm wondering what others on here think.

Thanks in advance for the feedback.

[Liquid Drum]

You shouldn't be getting muddy/murky recordings because of the mics. What type of music are you recording? Location? Venue size?

In my opinion it would only be a lateral move. I have both mics and they are both excellent.

[Belexes]

Agreed. Stick with what you have. My AT943's don't give me any mud.

[Church-Audio]

Hey Everybody:

Just got back into recording shows again after a four year hiatus (yeah, it's been some time).  Just did two shows in the past week or so and am using SP-CMC-8's (AT943) Cards with a SP-SB-3 battery box (which uses the mini 9v battery).  I'm finding my recordings, to my liking, a little muddy and murky which is one of the normal criticisms of the AT943's.

Now, I've listened to some shows from people using Church Audio CA-11's (and I've also listened to Chris' sample) and I'm quite impressed.  I'm wondering if it's a smart move to ditch my current setup and pick up the CA-11/STC-9000 combo?  I'm wondering what others on here think.

Thanks in advance for the feedback.

If you want more of a flat top end go with my ca-14 mics they have much more extended hi-end. I think the mics you have are very good but they can not be buried in your clothing they must be placed with no obstructions in front of them. I would also check your battery on your battery box. And run your battery box flat. With no roll off what so ever. Honestly the only mic that  I make that would be any kind of improvement would be the ca-14. But again look at your placement first and see if that helps before you go spending any more money.


Chris

[willyp523]

I have both mics too and wouldn't call anything I've done with the 943's muddy.  Nor have I heard them criticized as such.  If you're getting a muddy sound, it's more likely due to your location, the venue, mic placement...any number of things.  Are your mics covered with anything?  Do they have a clear line to the speakers?

Not trying to dissuade you from buying the Church mics.  Dollar for dollar, they're a great mic.   

[adrianf74]

Okay, +Ts for the advice here.  That said, should I think about the preamp then or is the battery box going to be enough for the R09 that I'm using as the recorder or with the preamp offer me any benefit?

I know the two shows I've taped have been VERY BASSY and one was MUDDY at the source.  I've also had excellent recordings in the past with these mics so I'm thinking it's just been the shows.

[nameloc01]

That sounds like you do not have your mics set up correctly..as in their positioning in relation to the music source.

[adrianf74]

You shouldn't be getting muddy/murky recordings because of the mics. What type of music are you recording? Location? Venue size?

In my opinion it would only be a lateral move. I have both mics and they are both excellent.

Okay, I've done a little bit of checking into this and have found the following.   One show was an alt.rock show at the Air Canada Centre (about 18 to 20-thousand people), but the Bass was mixed higher than normal (several reviewers have comments on this).  The other show as a free, outdoor show, and again, several people have commented on the artists website that the bass was loud (several YouTube videos that have surfaced also demonstrate this).

The question is: would a preamp be of any advantage of the mini-battery box (I like the size of the box for stealth but want to capture the best possible recording I can since I'm using an R-09).

+T!

[adrianf74]

I think the mics you have are very good but they can not be buried in your clothing they must be placed with no obstructions in front of them. I would also check your battery on your battery box. And run your battery box flat. With no roll off what so ever. Honestly the only mic that  I make that would be any kind of improvement would be the ca-14. But again look at your placement first and see if that helps before you go spending any more money.

Chris

For the alt.rock show at the ACC, I clipped them carefully to my thin wired glass frames and faced them forward at about 55-degrees as the bass stacks were about 5 rows away (I was on the floor). 

For the outdoor show, I clipped the mics to my hat and faced them at a 45-degree angle standing about 8 feet from the stacks.  I had to use windscreens because it was at Yonge-Dundas Square and it was a slightly windy day (gusts to 30km/h).

Battery box is flat (no roll-off) and I've checked the battery strength as I've had these for a while and they were "acceptable" based on charge.  I'm not using them for more than 6 hours even though they're rated at 16-20 (I'd bought these in 2004).  I used to do roll off at 95Hz (and 160Hz prior to that).  I'm wondering if I want to consider going back to 69Hz but I can always roll bass off in post (but never add it).

Preamp?  Worthy addition or is the battery box acceptable?

[adrianf74]

I have both mics too and wouldn't call anything I've done with the 943's muddy.  Nor have I heard them criticized as such.  If you're getting a muddy sound, it's more likely due to your location, the venue, mic placement...any number of things.  Are your mics covered with anything?  Do they have a clear line to the speakers?

Not trying to dissuade you from buying the Church mics.  Dollar for dollar, they're a great mic.   

The things that's odd is that I used to use a Sharp MT-877 MiniDisc recorder with the bass roll off set to 95Hz (originally 160Hz).  I've since, at the suggestion of Chris and others, moved the roll off to FLAT (16Hz).   Have always had a clear line as I stand about 5'11" (I've given my specs to Chris on my previous post).  Personally, I've had better luck in the past with them - maybe I've just ended up at two boomy shows.

[adrianf74]

That sounds like you do not have your mics set up correctly..as in their positioning in relation to the music source.

Actually, I'm doing nothing differently than I have in the past (and I've got numerous killer recordings).  The only change is that I've stopped rolling off bass with these mics (as Chris and others have said they're not known for being very good with bass) but the two shows were both rather bass-heavy.  Clarity and separation on both shows was excellent, too. 

[Dede2002]

I was one of those "preamp is for acoustic, not so loud music" guys. That was before I got my Church-9100. I'm a R-09 (Line In) user and I can tell you that: my recordings now are way cleaner and transparent sounding. The diference is amazing.

[nameloc01]

Hmm. Well, regardless those are very nice mics and they shouldn't be putting out like that, so something else is going on. Maybe try some more shows at different venues and see what happens.

[willyp523]

5th row and 8'...you might be too close.  If the stacks are overhead, the best sound might be going over your head.  Most times I like to be 12-20 rows back.

And I don't concern myself with degree placement with these mics, given they're used mostly in 007 conditions...just point 'em at the stacks.

For the alt.rock show at the ACC, I clipped them carefully to my thin wired glass frames and faced them forward at about 55-degrees as the bass stacks were about 5 rows away (I was on the floor). 

For the outdoor show, I clipped the mics to my hat and faced them at a 45-degree angle standing about 8 feet from the stacks.  I had to use windscreens because it was at Yonge-Dundas Square and it was a slightly windy day (gusts to 30km/h).

[adrianf74]

Hmm. Well, regardless those are very nice mics and they shouldn't be putting out like that, so something else is going on. Maybe try some more shows at different venues and see what happens.

Like I mentioned, the alt.rock show was bass heavy (several reviewers mentioned this) and the free show (rock/pop) was bassy as well (people on the artists' website have commented on this) and the videos on YouTube also seem bass-heavy (I did some rolling off and rolling up to "unmuddy" the recording in post).

Thoughts on the benefit of a preamp?