Topic: Recording outdoor festivals

[skinnypaul]

I have a couple of festivals coming up, one weekend and a one-dayer. Both have bands on the bill that I'd really like to tape but I also see ten hours of music a day as a great opportunity to practise some fieldcraft (and I *really* need the practise!)

I'll be using CSBs -> DR-07. Indoors I would normally try and either get right next to a stack (preferred) or else dead centre and reasonably up front. What should I be doing outdoors? Or in a tent?

I'm guessing no walls is good but wind and rain potentially bad... time to find some mini-windguards 

[stevetoney]

Opinions vary about location...people either like DFC which is an equilateral triangle between you and both speaker stacks or FOB which is right in front of the soundboard.  The concept of the first is the same as if you sitting in your living room and wanting to get the best stereo effect possible, the concept of the second is that the sound is better mixed at that location because the soundguy is tweeking the sound to his taste.  I don't know anyone that stack tapes outdoor festivals.

As far as screens go, normal foam screens usually aren't enough for anything more than a wispy breeze.  If the wind kicks up, you need something beefier.  Get a pair of Tim's dead muppets ($20 in the retail section) and put those over the foam screens and you should be good.  Some people improvise and put socks or something with fur over the foam, but unless the foam is really thick it tends not to be enough to cut the wind on its own if the weather kicks up or if there's a gusty breeze.

[rhinowing]

I would go fob, especially if there are going to be any stereo effects

[TimeBandit]

If the venue is very affected by wind you should prefer front of speakers (shortest way from speaker to mic, no "washing away / draining effects" due to wind), with battery box / Preamp powered mics that should be no problem.

even check the venue bigger festivals have the stacks at the stage and secondary stacks for the rows faw behind the stage. Maybe do a "soundchek" with your equipment from which stack it is better to record.

Best solution is maybe do a matrix with one taper recording FOS and one FOB for stereo effects and mixing them in post.

[achalsey]

What festivals are you planning on going to?  Might help people answer venue-wise and might be some other tapers going you could talk to first hand.

[skinnypaul]

Thanks for the suggestions. I'd forgotten how much the sound can get blown around at larger festivals - good point.

I've also invested in a waterproof zip-lock bag to keep the recorder safe. If it seems decent I'll pick up a couple more for stashing mics etc.

Thanks also for the suggestion of the Dead Muppets. I didn't realise these could be fitted to small mics like CSBs so that's good to know. Daft question: how can I replace the foam windshields that the CSBs originally shipped with?

[skinnypaul]

I guess I also need to think about power and storage. I'll grab another set of Econoloops and perhaps another flash card.

[SmokinJoe]

You probably want something like a homemade T-bar you can clip the CSB's on.  With Omni's, you want a bit of separation.  At least a foot, probably 2'.  It could be a wooden stick, or a coat hanger, or whatever you want.  Many festivals have an Official (or unofficial) taper's section next to the SBD.  If it exists, I generally use it.  if not, than go where you want.  If you block the sightlines of the sound or lights guy, they will yell at you, but you probably won't be that high.

Omnis have the benefit of not being as sensitive to wind as cards, but you still need windscreens.  You can probably find something here... http://www.olsenaudio.com/general.html   Olsen makes them, but doesn't sell direct.  Once you find the right model number, then you go find a seller.  Your CSB's are 1/4" in dia, so that's your inside dimension.  Find the fatest OD you can.  And don't be surprised if you need something over that, like dead rats, or heavy socks.

What do you do if it rains?  You need an umbrella.  Probably the easiest thing to do is abort the split omni bar, and go clip to some other taper's t-bar under his umbrella.

If you are running from you own stand, you need to stake it down with tent pegs so the wind doesn't blow it over.  Or weight it down with rocks, or something.

[Myco]

If you're running CSB's you'll probably want to try and get up close, unless you have hyper capsules on them.
CSB cards from the section wouldn't be worth the battery power to make the recording IMHO.

[yates7592]

If you're at an outdoor festival, apart from wind, the biggest issue will probably be drunks / screamers / talkers - therefore try to get close up to the stacks, especially if you have omni's.........

[TimeBandit]

that´s also pro FOS it´s it should be loud enough to get over chattering, noises in songs and use cards for taping FOS they aren´t taking much noise besides of you onto the record. between the songs you can mix chatter down in postpro via normalization or simple volume envelope curve.

For powering issue: choose a recorder with long battery life and which can run with eneloops or similar ... battery boxes or preamp can last around 300 hours with one 9V block so that´s no problem.

[stevetoney]

I really have to disagree with some of the suggestions coming out of this thread...respectfully provided and IMHO. 

The suggestion to get close to the stacks to avoid talkers isn't optimal.  Minimizing talkers is better solved by putting your mics up on a stand and raising them up above the talkers.  If you're close to a stack and someone is at your shoulder talking, it's still going to come through clearly on your recording. 

While I agree that in wind you can cut down on wind phasing by getting closer, but I'm not sure I'd want to stack record as a solution to a concern about possible wind phasing issue, which only happens on very few of my recordings.  Better to stake your stand down really well so that it doesn't sway...which doesn't totally solve the problem but at least eliminates the mic stand variable.  I also think this is better solved moving closer but closer to the center of the stage, not to one of the sides.  I mean, when you go to a festival, how many mic stands do you see in front of the stacks?  Not sure how many fests you've been to, but the answer is essentially none. 

Finally, what happens if the FOH engineer mixes the stacks in stereo and pans instruments?  So you're in front of one stack and you may get no guitar because it's coming out of the other side.  That said, at most festivals the mix doesn't pan the instruments totally L and R...IOW you still hear guitar out of both sides, but maybe it's panned 70/30 or 60/40 so that there is some stereo effect coming out of the PA.  I have been to lots and lots of shows though where instruments are panned completely while vocals are centered.

Last year at one festival I went to, the left stack kept cutting out all through the Franti show.  My recording didn't sound too bad though since I was FOB...if I was in front of the left stack, I'd have had nothing.

[CTjazzfanatic]

I have recorded jazz at a park twice in the past week and got different results each time. Both times I recorded stealth with Church Audio CA-14 (omnis) seated in front near the stage. The first time there was a monitor on stage pointed right at me and the sound came out pretty good. Yesterday I recorded three sets at the same park, but different sound company this time. The on-stage stack was to my right and another monitor was slightly to my right. The volume level of the PA system seemed much louder and through the stack to my right the acoustic bass and piano were amplified while the other instruments were picked up by my mics from the stage and the sound of the piano was downright bad coming through the stacks. I was not too pleased with the results this time. I have recordings where the bass is much louder than everything else and the horns are often distant.

I will be back in the park tonight. Since it is the same series as the show i caught last week, the sound system will be the same. But, is the suggestion that I instead move back away from the stage instead of sitting right up front? In that case would it be better to use my cards?

[acidjack]

Steve, I don't disagree with anything you said in general, but is it clear the OP is open taping here?  Sorry if I missed that.  If the OP is not open taping and is mounting mics on their person, then I tend to think a stack tape is the only way to go, because you cannot minimize talkers with height.  I do not disagree with the limitations of doing so that you identified, though.

Further, CSBs, being omnis, are at least going to be less affected by wind.  I'd still run screens, but I am not sure the suggestion of muppets is really necessary IF they are mounted low on your person.  If on a stand, then yes, the heaviest/best screen you can get, absolutely. 

Also, FWIW, it's a festival, so you might as well try a few different methods with different bands and see what works for you.

I really have to disagree with some of the suggestions coming out of this thread...respectfully provided and IMHO. 

The suggestion to get close to the stacks to avoid talkers isn't optimal.  Minimizing talkers is better solved by putting your mics up on a stand and raising them up above the talkers.  If you're close to a stack and someone is at your shoulder talking, it's still going to come through clearly on your recording. 

While I agree that in wind you can cut down on wind phasing by getting closer, but I'm not sure I'd want to stack record as a solution to a concern about possible wind phasing issue, which only happens on very few of my recordings.  Better to stake your stand down really well so that it doesn't sway...which doesn't totally solve the problem but at least eliminates the mic stand variable.  I also think this is better solved moving closer but closer to the center of the stage, not to one of the sides.  I mean, when you go to a festival, how many mic stands do you see in front of the stacks?  Not sure how many fests you've been to, but the answer is essentially none. 

Finally, what happens if the FOH engineer mixes the stacks in stereo and pans instruments?  So you're in front of one stack and you may get no guitar because it's coming out of the other side.  That said, at most festivals the mix doesn't pan the instruments totally L and R...IOW you still hear guitar out of both sides, but maybe it's panned 70/30 or 60/40 so that there is some stereo effect coming out of the PA.  I have been to lots and lots of shows though where instruments are panned completely while vocals are centered.

Last year at one festival I went to, the left stack kept cutting out all through the Franti show.  My recording didn't sound too bad though since I was FOB...if I was in front of the left stack, I'd have had nothing.

[su6oxone]

I'm guessing no walls is good but wind and rain potentially bad... time to find some mini-windguards 

Yeah, outdoor taping is the best!  Some of my best recordings have been from outdoor shows, and the lack of sound reflection makes it sound much better and the crowd noise is diminished as a result as well.  Rain is bad, but just watch the forecast and if there's a significant chance of rain, then decide if you want to risk it or not.  It's easier if you're not using a stand because you can just use an umbrella or something and you can always run for cover if need be.  Definitely need good windscreens though, although heavy duty screens like the A81WS will be needed in really windy conditions.

[skinnypaul]

Thanks for the suggestions folks - lots of food for thought there.

As someone pointed out, there's a whole weekend so I can experiment, see what works and maybe even learn something!

(Just need to remember to pack enough batteries  )

[shadowfax1007]

I ran the byron bluesfest with cards, standing FOB - pretty good results. Ran into the wind issue once, was stealthing so I couldn't use dead rats.

I like the matrix suggestion.

[jlykos]

Some good advice in this thread.  I like the ideas to run FOB and to try to make an equilateral triangle with you and the PA stacks.  Omnis will pick up less wind noise when run outdoors so that's good, but I would still use windscreens anyway.  At the very least, they will protect the capsules from smoke, dust, and a bit of precipitation.  I like a 4' split when running omnis outdoors, but given that this may or may not be an open taping situation, that may not be the reality.  Clipping the mics to your shoulders will give you a wider stereo image than to your hat or glasses.  If there are other tapers there, you may want to ask if you can clip each capsule to a mic stand.

Good luck!

[easyed]

I really have to disagree with some of the suggestions coming out of this thread...respectfully provided and IMHO. 

The suggestion to get close to the stacks to avoid talkers isn't optimal.  Minimizing talkers is better solved by putting your mics up on a stand and raising them up above the talkers.  If you're close to a stack and someone is at your shoulder talking, it's still going to come through clearly on your recording. 

While I agree that in wind you can cut down on wind phasing by getting closer, but I'm not sure I'd want to stack record as a solution to a concern about possible wind phasing issue, which only happens on very few of my recordings.  Better to stake your stand down really well so that it doesn't sway...which doesn't totally solve the problem but at least eliminates the mic stand variable.  I also think this is better solved moving closer but closer to the center of the stage, not to one of the sides.  I mean, when you go to a festival, how many mic stands do you see in front of the stacks?  Not sure how many fests you've been to, but the answer is essentially none. 

Finally, what happens if the FOH engineer mixes the stacks in stereo and pans instruments?  So you're in front of one stack and you may get no guitar because it's coming out of the other side.  That said, at most festivals the mix doesn't pan the instruments totally L and R...IOW you still hear guitar out of both sides, but maybe it's panned 70/30 or 60/40 so that there is some stereo effect coming out of the PA.  I have been to lots and lots of shows though where instruments are panned completely while vocals are centered.

Last year at one festival I went to, the left stack kept cutting out all through the Franti show.  My recording didn't sound too bad though since I was FOB...if I was in front of the left stack, I'd have had nothing.

I really have to disagree with some of the suggestions above...respectfully provided and IMHO.

I find it is very rare that concerts are in stereo over the main PA.  If there is any panning it is very slight, like faders at 11 o'clock and 1 o'clock.   Even in small clubs that seat, say, only 250.  And the reason is that stereo would not provide a good experience for much of the audience.  Those to the left would not hear what coming out of the right very well and vice versa.  I frequently ask the sound man before the show if the same content will be coming out of both speakers and the answer in invariably yes, with an exception if two instruments are expected to play the same melodic line they may be panned veryy slight, like faders at 11 o'clock and 1 o'clock.  Any soundperson who ran the mains with left and right hard panned (like 9 o'clock and 3 o'clock or harder) should and probably would be in trouble (like in-jeopardy-of-losing-their-job-trouble) with the band(s) and the venue.

Don't believe me?  Start asking the soundperson at shows you go to: "is the same info coming out of both left and right speaker stacks?"  Don't ask, are you mixing in stereo because that is a different (and in our case irrelevant) question.

The reasons you see festival tapers openly taping in front of the soundboard: 1) that is where they are told it is ok to run stands - anywhere else is not allowed and/or 2) they have the mistaken religious (not based on facts or testing or evidence) belief that the sound is best there.  Soundboards are not always positioned where the sound is best, especially in indoors venues.  And, where is the sound coming from?  The speakers.  Therefore the closer you get to the speakers the more direct sound you get.  Further from speakers more ambience and reflection. Some people like ambience and audience and room sound - I find I get plenty even when stack taping.  And there are vestiges of not liking soundboards, since some soundboards were poorly and strangely mixed, including in the Grateful Dead days, instilling a prejudice against soundboards in the taping community, which grew into the myth of 'audience ambience' being desirable.

For those tapers who like to make decisions based on testing, evidence and facts, try doing some tests.  Same show, roughly equivalent gear, one rig as close as possible to a stack, another rig center in front of board.  Which sounds better?  Testing, evidence, not mythology.

I will let my 30 plus years of recordings testify as validity of my assertions, especially my Hardly Strictly Bluegrass Festival recordings made in front of crowds of 10,000 plus.  Compare those to recordings made at the same show with much better mics only 30 or 50 feet further back (FOB but further from stacks than mine).

[TimeBandit]

just a bit of experiments and sorting out the location.

recording direct from stack with cards it can reduce chatter the signal is more direct and i haven´t to use so much gain like i´m am far away from the stacks and the "music to chatter noise" ratio is better, not meant a bloke near the mic shouting..  nothing can solve this (maybe give him a drink or candys ^^) .. but the general noise floor made by the whole audience chatter especially in closed venues which are built like the Agra in Leipzig with metal walls can be solved via a good stack taping.

and on big festivals there is no single big stereo field, each stack gets the same signal so crowd on the left can listen the same like them on the right, just that easy explanation.

Soundboards are not always positioned where the sound is best, especially in indoors venues.

+1 recorded at the "Felsenkeller" in Leipzig, sound 10m away from stage was straight better then FOB

[yates7592]

just a bit of experiments and sorting out the location.

recording direct from stack with cards it can reduce chatter the signal is more direct and i haven´t to use so much gain like i´m am far away from the stacks and the "music to chatter noise" ratio is better, not meant a bloke near the mic shouting..  nothing can solve this (maybe give him a drink or candys ^^) .. but the general noise floor made by the whole audience chatter especially in closed venues which are built like the Agra in Leipzig with metal walls can be solved via a good stack taping.

and on big festivals there is no single big stereo field, each stack gets the same signal so crowd on the left can listen the same like them on the right, just that easy explanation.

Soundboards are not always positioned where the sound is best, especially in indoors venues.

+1 recorded at the "Felsenkeller" in Leipzig, sound 10m away from stage was straight better then FOB

I wouldn't stack tape with cards, you may well miss a lot of the mids and lows, amount depending on configuration of speakers/woofers etc and your position relative. If you stack tape, I would say use omni's for best results.

[runonce]

Don't believe me?  Start asking the soundperson at shows you go to: "is the same info coming out of both left and right speaker stacks?"  Don't ask, are you mixing in stereo because that is a different (and in our case irrelevant) question.

Not sure I understand...what is the difference?

Id prefer to ask "Are you mixing in stereo?" - that is the only relevant question - not sure what distinction you are going for with this "is the same info coming from both speakers...?"  That sounds confusing...and if someone asked me that I would reply "Do you mean, is this a stereo mix?"

[Gutbucket]

Not sure I understand...what is the difference?

Id prefer to ask "Are you mixing in stereo?" - that is the only relevant question..

We'll there are undefined terms there: mixing what? stereo what?
There are often multiple mixes happening: monitors, PA, sub-group busses, sometimes a recording matrix, etc.
Mixing in stereo? does that mean using a stereo board with a 2-bus out?
People use different terms for things and what might seem clear to you may not be to someone else.  Ever ask a sound guy for a 'soundboard feed' and get a puzzled look? It helps to be really specific.

Asking specifically if the same information is coming out of each speaker is about a straightforward as it gets.

..the myth of 'audience ambience' being desirable.

No myth.  It is a very desirable aspect which I work hard to balance with the clear, direct sound in my recordings.  I agree with you that 'stack-taping' is often used in a pejorative sense around here which is unfortunate and also a misnomer since recording by the board is simply 'stack taping' from farther away.  The real issue is optimizing the direct to reverberant ratio.  More specifically, it's balancing all the the direct sound elements (the FOH stacks, front fills, sound from the onstage instruments and amps themselves which is the 'real' direct stuff, maybe delay towers if you are really far back in a big venue) and the ambient sound elements (reflections, reverb, general crowd reaction, specific nearby individuals, other room noises, HVAC sounds, wind, trains, planes, automobiles and the guy in the icecream truck).   Without enough ambient information, there is little of the live feel, excitement, and feeling of being in the actual space experiencing the event which is a big part of what makes my live recordings so enjoyable for me.  To get the best balance I set up in some unusual places sometimes, and yes, more often than not I like to have a clear, direct line and good proximity to the direct sound sources, which often means somewhere other than right next to the sound board.

Location, location, location.

[Gutbucket]

To get a bit deeper into it, I often prefer to think of stereo recording in terms of direct/ambient instead of left/right.  It's a more basic and important aspect than an even channel balance or stereo image.  I've even gone so far as to record one channel of direct sound and one of ambient sound, instead of one left and one right, to allow better control of that critical balance after the fact, and it can be mixed to stereo in such a way as to not sound dimentionally flat like mono.

[runonce]

Not sure I understand...what is the difference?

Id prefer to ask "Are you mixing in stereo?" - that is the only relevant question..

We'll there are undefined terms there: mixing what? stereo what?
There are often multiple mixes happening: monitors, PA, sub-group busses, sometimes a recording matrix, etc.
Mixing in stereo? does that mean using a stereo board with a 2-bus out?
People use different terms for things and what might seem clear to you may not be to someone else.  Ever ask a sound guy for a 'soundboard feed' and get a puzzled look? It helps to be really specific.

Asking specifically if the same information is coming out of each speaker is about a straightforward as it gets.

..the myth of 'audience ambience' being desirable.

Gut - its very clear from the subject and context - we are talking about the mix coming out of the mains...

Sorry - I've never heard the music coming out of the speakers as referred to as "information"...that is hardly straight forward...I get it...but its not a clear quesiton.

[Gutbucket]

Gut - its very clear from the subject and context - we are talking about the mix coming out of the mains...

Well it's certainly clear to us, but might not be to the sound guy.  I've had experiences where what I assumed were simple questions such as yours were interpreted very differently from what I was trying to ask.  It was somewhat of a wake up call to realize that what I thought was obvious was not to the other person.  The danger is when you and I both know what you mean because we use those terms the same way all the time and it becomes 'obvious' to us.. and then assume that it is obvious to the sound guy too.

Sorry - I've never heard the music coming out of the speakers as referred to as "information"...that is hardly straight forward...I get it...but its not a clear quesiton.

The sound guy would get it too, actually if he has to think a second to be sure and understand what you mean, you may be better off.  The important thing is reducing the possibly that he might assume you mean something else.  Fair enough criticism though, it does sound awkward, how about this:
"Is everything panned center in the house PA?"

[runonce]

Gut - its very clear from the subject and context - we are talking about the mix coming out of the mains...

Well it's certainly clear to us, but might not be to the sound guy.  I've had experiences where what I assumed were simple questions such as yours were interpreted very differently from what I was trying to ask.  It was somewhat of a wake up call to realize that what I thought was obvious was not to the other person.  The danger is when you and I both know what you mean because we use those terms the same way all the time and it becomes 'obvious' to us.. and then assume that it is obvious to the sound guy too.

Sorry - I've never heard the music coming out of the speakers as referred to as "information"...that is hardly straight forward...I get it...but its not a clear quesiton.

The sound guy would get it too, actually if he has to think a second to be sure and understand what you mean, you may be better off.  The important thing is reducing the possibly that he might assume you mean something else.  Fair enough criticism though, it does sound awkward, how about this:
"Is everything panned center in the house PA?"

If you read my post - Im trying to clarify what "easyed" was saying...thats all - not the nunaces of what you ask or dont ask a soundguy...

[Gutbucket]

Id prefer to ask "Are you mixing in stereo?" - that is the only relevant question - not sure what distinction you are going for with this "is the same info coming from both speakers...?"  That sounds confusing...and if someone asked me that I would reply "Do you mean, is this a stereo mix?"

^^^
Isn't this all concerning what hypothetical question you ask the soundguy and if he understands your question?

Sorry, I don't mean to belabor the thing. 

I agree with what easyed says about very limited stereo information if any at all over most PA's.  I find the exception to that is stereo effects- things that are alwasy audible on both sides but swirl around or have a wide stereo 'bed' under them for lack of a better term.  Think stereo leslie cabinet mic'ing, stereo reverb on vocals and percussion, synth pads, etc.

[easyed]

Not sure I understand...what is the difference?

Id prefer to ask "Are you mixing in stereo?" - that is the only relevant question..

We'll there are undefined terms there: mixing what? stereo what?
There are often multiple mixes happening: monitors, PA, sub-group busses, sometimes a recording matrix, etc.
Mixing in stereo? does that mean using a stereo board with a 2-bus out?
People use different terms for things and what might seem clear to you may not be to someone else.  Ever ask a sound guy for a 'soundboard feed' and get a puzzled look? It helps to be really specific.

Asking specifically if the same information is coming out of each speaker is about a straightforward as it gets.

..the myth of 'audience ambience' being desirable.

No myth.  It is a very desirable aspect which I work hard to balance with the clear, direct sound in my recordings.  I agree with you that 'stack-taping' is often used in a pejorative sense around here which is unfortunate and also a misnomer since recording by the board is simply 'stack taping' from farther away.  The real issue is optimizing the direct to reverberant ratio.  More specifically, it's balancing all the the direct sound elements (the FOH stacks, front fills, sound from the onstage instruments and amps themselves which is the 'real' direct stuff, maybe delay towers if you are really far back in a big venue) and the ambient sound elements (reflections, reverb, general crowd reaction, specific nearby individuals, other room noises, HVAC sounds, wind, trains, planes, automobiles and the guy in the icecream truck).   Without enough ambient information, there is little of the live feel, excitement, and feeling of being in the actual space experiencing the event which is a big part of what makes my live recordings so enjoyable for me.  To get the best balance I set up in some unusual places sometimes, and yes, more often than not I like to have a clear, direct line and good proximity to the direct sound sources, which often means somewhere other than right next to the sound board.

Location, location, location.

If I ask the soundman 'are you mixing in stereo?' he very well may be, but a stereo mix may not be what is feeding the mains, which is where the sound that the audience hears comes from.  The other suggestion, asking 'is everything panned center in the house PA?' is a very precise and useful alternative question - try asking it in venues small and large and see what answers you get.

Yes I like to hear crowd reaction but when 'ambience' means echoey distant vocals, no thanks.  And when recording music made up of acoustic instruments, getting any distance at all from the mains make the acoustic instruments sound thin and echoey - again, no thanks.

But recordings are like coffee - everybody likes theirs brewed a little differently (or like wine, where variety is what make them interesting).  Most of all I would endorse the behavior of people like GutBucket, who continually assess the results of their recordings and think about how to get better results and then try experiments to improve their recordings and then assess the results and rinse and repeat.  As opposed to somebody who records from the balcony with a Zoom in their pocket using internal mics and thinks the recording is great and doesn't even think about trying another approach for better results.

My opinions - worth at least half of what you paid for them....

[Gutbucket]

My opinions - worth at least half of what you paid for them....

Your commission check is in the mail. 

One of my favorite locations is right in front of a stage front center fill speaker if the venue is running them- gets stereo image and pure goodness from the non-PA'd direct on-stage sound stage of the instruments; reinforcement by the center fill for clarity, presence and help for anything weak on-stage like vocals, etc; great crowd excitement directly behind (were i want it in my surround recordings, but also more managable for stereo recordings using typical directional mic stereo configs); and usually a good balance of just the right abount of reverb and 'room sound'.. even if that 'room' is an ampitheater.

Just more opinion, and worth just as much..

[runonce]

If I ask the soundman 'are you mixing in stereo?' he very well may be, but a stereo mix may not be what is feeding the mains, which is where the sound that the audience hears comes from.  The other suggestion, asking 'is everything panned center in the house PA?' is a very precise and useful alternative question - try asking it in venues small and large and see what answers you get.

Perhaps - but I think referring to panning is confusing...we pan the drums all the way to the left...that how you assign subgroups...its still mono.
In one venue,  we pan the kick drum a little because one part of the room is a bit longer and we think the kick gets a bit box-y sounding on the short side. Does that make it stereo? Not really.

Im still trying to wrap my head around why someone might mix in stereo - and only feed the PA in mono?

When I set out to do show with a fellow soundtech...we dont ask ourselves "are we going to have the same info coming out of each speaker" - we ask "are we going to run this show in stereo or mono?"

And again - you seem to dismiss the smaller pan increments as somehow not being stereo. We just did a small outdoor fest - and with the exception of a bluegrass band - we ran everyone in stereo. Often panning is done evenly distribute the sound...not to create some effect or image...

At an outdoor fest, I might expect some of the lesser bands to be run in mono just for simplicity for the tech crew - perhaps the headliner might run in stereo.

[bo0zZe]

It´s not always best to run close to the speakers at open airs.I decided to get very far away at one show during a festivel and the result was the  best recording i made from that festival. They had PA right next to the stage and i was for sure 150m from the stage..nearly outside.



greetz

[achalsey]

something like this?

http://www.amazon.com/Funny-Umbrella-Fishing-Costume-Party/dp/B001H3QJ6S

[bo0zZe]

d´oh ^^
iam not really sure if it really works out well. recording in the rain is in my opinion a problem i can´t fix .

nah i´ve got another question to the more experienced  ppl ....
i just recorded smthn.. very small crowd and i was ca 10m in front of the pa. did turn off the hpf and got a very nice recording. but there´s 1 thing i don´t know how to put into- the sound goes like in a circle from left to right all over the recording. how did this happen? actually live there was nothing like that.and i also didn´t edit anything. how do i avoid this ?

[Myco]

something like this?

http://www.amazon.com/Funny-Umbrella-Fishing-Costume-Party/dp/B001H3QJ6S

This would be great if you wanted to have a recording of entire entire show where all they played was the opening to The Doors "Riders On The Storm". 

[adrianf74]

I can relate to the difference in sound depending on the company and equipment used.  Location is key.  Some people swear by stack taping using Omnis.  Others will swear by using cards (in an open rig) up by the soundboard.  I had a similar situation a couple of weekend's back: on the Friday, my buddy and I open rolled on the lighting side of the soundboard/lighting area with stands at 8.5 and 10 feet respectively.  My stand had the CA-14 omnis at 8.5 feet, my buddy had the AKG 480 HC's at 10 feet.  Strangely, as I posted in another thread, the CA-14's smoked the AKG's. 

The next day, I noticed my stand was busted so I moved up about 1/2 way from the board, and rolled on the first act.  Rolled the omnis again.  The mix was thin (keyboards were prominent), bass was booming and mids were nowhere to be heard.  By the time the headline act was on, I was about 8-10 rows from the barricade (about 30-40 feet from the stage).  That recording was possibly the worst one I ever made.  It didn't help that it was very humid, either.

The third day, I ran my stand at 10 feet over the soundboard side of the soundboard/lighting area.  Ran the omnis for two acts and the cards for the middle act (Jon Anderson solo).  The cards sounded artificial.  The omnis sounded fuller.  The sound on the third day was the best and the sound on the recordings with the omnis was nice when I played it back. 

The moral of the story - it's a crapshoot.... it really is. 

[Gutbucket]

If I can, I try to walk around an listen for what I think will be the best spot, though it's a bit of a learned skill to decide which spot is actually best.  Many (most) large PAs are far more directional in the vertical plane than the horizontal and the sound can sometimes change dramatically in the space of a few feet overhead.  I don't usually monitor with phones when I record or setup, but I did listen extensively a few times when messing with setups at a couple outdoor venues to try and optimize things.  In one of those particular situations I found an easily decernable sweet 'height' of between 7'-8' with the clarity tapering off dramatically above both and below that.  I choose to run omnis at 7-1/2' and risk the yap, while most others ran 9'-11' or so.

[T-90]

If I can, I try to walk around an listen for what I think will be the best spot, though it's a bit of a learned skill to decide which spot is actually best.

ive never seen you do this 

[Gutbucket]

ive never seen you do this 

Sometimes I do it just to entertain the other tapers.

[skinnypaul]

Well, the results are in and.... while I run CSBs I'm staying close to the stack!

Thanks for the advice all. Lots of useful stuff to think about. The one thing I totally agree with - yes, it's a crapshoot 

P.S. Wow - I'd forgotten how much festival crowds talk during the music...

[easyed]

I've voiced my opinion and other people have voiced their opinions, some agree some disagree.

I think the bottom line is the results, so any of us who actually CARE about the quality of the our recordings would be well advised to TEST the different locations.  If you're at an outdoor festival, choose a band you don't care about and record part of a song from DFC equilateral triangle from stacks (speak into the mics where your location is for later reference) and then walk over to as close to a single speaker stack as possible and record part of the same song there.  Then go somewhere quiet and listen to the results.

I also assert that it is extremely rare that left and right speaker stacks, in a small venue or a huge venue, are putting out different information.  The way to determine the accuracy of this hypothesis is to ask the soundman at shows you go to and start to collect evidence.  You'll find that 99% of venues do not send different content to left and right speaker stacks.  If they do, they should be fired, because anybody in the audience that is not in the center will not hear everything, therefore cheating people on the left or right of center out of the full spectrum of the music they paid to hear.

So don't depend on opinions, start gathering facts and do what gets the best results.  The person with the best tape wins the debate.  (Here is my entry: http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/showthread.php?t=86017 )