Topic: Recording outdoor festivals

[skinnypaul]

Thanks for the suggestions folks - lots of food for thought there.

As someone pointed out, there's a whole weekend so I can experiment, see what works and maybe even learn something!

(Just need to remember to pack enough batteries  )

[shadowfax1007]

I ran the byron bluesfest with cards, standing FOB - pretty good results. Ran into the wind issue once, was stealthing so I couldn't use dead rats.

I like the matrix suggestion.

[jlykos]

Some good advice in this thread.  I like the ideas to run FOB and to try to make an equilateral triangle with you and the PA stacks.  Omnis will pick up less wind noise when run outdoors so that's good, but I would still use windscreens anyway.  At the very least, they will protect the capsules from smoke, dust, and a bit of precipitation.  I like a 4' split when running omnis outdoors, but given that this may or may not be an open taping situation, that may not be the reality.  Clipping the mics to your shoulders will give you a wider stereo image than to your hat or glasses.  If there are other tapers there, you may want to ask if you can clip each capsule to a mic stand.

Good luck!

[easyed]

I really have to disagree with some of the suggestions coming out of this thread...respectfully provided and IMHO. 

The suggestion to get close to the stacks to avoid talkers isn't optimal.  Minimizing talkers is better solved by putting your mics up on a stand and raising them up above the talkers.  If you're close to a stack and someone is at your shoulder talking, it's still going to come through clearly on your recording. 

While I agree that in wind you can cut down on wind phasing by getting closer, but I'm not sure I'd want to stack record as a solution to a concern about possible wind phasing issue, which only happens on very few of my recordings.  Better to stake your stand down really well so that it doesn't sway...which doesn't totally solve the problem but at least eliminates the mic stand variable.  I also think this is better solved moving closer but closer to the center of the stage, not to one of the sides.  I mean, when you go to a festival, how many mic stands do you see in front of the stacks?  Not sure how many fests you've been to, but the answer is essentially none. 

Finally, what happens if the FOH engineer mixes the stacks in stereo and pans instruments?  So you're in front of one stack and you may get no guitar because it's coming out of the other side.  That said, at most festivals the mix doesn't pan the instruments totally L and R...IOW you still hear guitar out of both sides, but maybe it's panned 70/30 or 60/40 so that there is some stereo effect coming out of the PA.  I have been to lots and lots of shows though where instruments are panned completely while vocals are centered.

Last year at one festival I went to, the left stack kept cutting out all through the Franti show.  My recording didn't sound too bad though since I was FOB...if I was in front of the left stack, I'd have had nothing.

I really have to disagree with some of the suggestions above...respectfully provided and IMHO.

I find it is very rare that concerts are in stereo over the main PA.  If there is any panning it is very slight, like faders at 11 o'clock and 1 o'clock.   Even in small clubs that seat, say, only 250.  And the reason is that stereo would not provide a good experience for much of the audience.  Those to the left would not hear what coming out of the right very well and vice versa.  I frequently ask the sound man before the show if the same content will be coming out of both speakers and the answer in invariably yes, with an exception if two instruments are expected to play the same melodic line they may be panned veryy slight, like faders at 11 o'clock and 1 o'clock.  Any soundperson who ran the mains with left and right hard panned (like 9 o'clock and 3 o'clock or harder) should and probably would be in trouble (like in-jeopardy-of-losing-their-job-trouble) with the band(s) and the venue.

Don't believe me?  Start asking the soundperson at shows you go to: "is the same info coming out of both left and right speaker stacks?"  Don't ask, are you mixing in stereo because that is a different (and in our case irrelevant) question.

The reasons you see festival tapers openly taping in front of the soundboard: 1) that is where they are told it is ok to run stands - anywhere else is not allowed and/or 2) they have the mistaken religious (not based on facts or testing or evidence) belief that the sound is best there.  Soundboards are not always positioned where the sound is best, especially in indoors venues.  And, where is the sound coming from?  The speakers.  Therefore the closer you get to the speakers the more direct sound you get.  Further from speakers more ambience and reflection. Some people like ambience and audience and room sound - I find I get plenty even when stack taping.  And there are vestiges of not liking soundboards, since some soundboards were poorly and strangely mixed, including in the Grateful Dead days, instilling a prejudice against soundboards in the taping community, which grew into the myth of 'audience ambience' being desirable.

For those tapers who like to make decisions based on testing, evidence and facts, try doing some tests.  Same show, roughly equivalent gear, one rig as close as possible to a stack, another rig center in front of board.  Which sounds better?  Testing, evidence, not mythology.

I will let my 30 plus years of recordings testify as validity of my assertions, especially my Hardly Strictly Bluegrass Festival recordings made in front of crowds of 10,000 plus.  Compare those to recordings made at the same show with much better mics only 30 or 50 feet further back (FOB but further from stacks than mine).

[TimeBandit]

just a bit of experiments and sorting out the location.

recording direct from stack with cards it can reduce chatter the signal is more direct and i haven´t to use so much gain like i´m am far away from the stacks and the "music to chatter noise" ratio is better, not meant a bloke near the mic shouting..  nothing can solve this (maybe give him a drink or candys ^^) .. but the general noise floor made by the whole audience chatter especially in closed venues which are built like the Agra in Leipzig with metal walls can be solved via a good stack taping.

and on big festivals there is no single big stereo field, each stack gets the same signal so crowd on the left can listen the same like them on the right, just that easy explanation.

Soundboards are not always positioned where the sound is best, especially in indoors venues.

+1 recorded at the "Felsenkeller" in Leipzig, sound 10m away from stage was straight better then FOB

[yates7592]

just a bit of experiments and sorting out the location.

recording direct from stack with cards it can reduce chatter the signal is more direct and i haven´t to use so much gain like i´m am far away from the stacks and the "music to chatter noise" ratio is better, not meant a bloke near the mic shouting..  nothing can solve this (maybe give him a drink or candys ^^) .. but the general noise floor made by the whole audience chatter especially in closed venues which are built like the Agra in Leipzig with metal walls can be solved via a good stack taping.

and on big festivals there is no single big stereo field, each stack gets the same signal so crowd on the left can listen the same like them on the right, just that easy explanation.

Soundboards are not always positioned where the sound is best, especially in indoors venues.

+1 recorded at the "Felsenkeller" in Leipzig, sound 10m away from stage was straight better then FOB

I wouldn't stack tape with cards, you may well miss a lot of the mids and lows, amount depending on configuration of speakers/woofers etc and your position relative. If you stack tape, I would say use omni's for best results.

[runonce]

Don't believe me?  Start asking the soundperson at shows you go to: "is the same info coming out of both left and right speaker stacks?"  Don't ask, are you mixing in stereo because that is a different (and in our case irrelevant) question.

Not sure I understand...what is the difference?

Id prefer to ask "Are you mixing in stereo?" - that is the only relevant question - not sure what distinction you are going for with this "is the same info coming from both speakers...?"  That sounds confusing...and if someone asked me that I would reply "Do you mean, is this a stereo mix?"

[Gutbucket]

Not sure I understand...what is the difference?

Id prefer to ask "Are you mixing in stereo?" - that is the only relevant question..

We'll there are undefined terms there: mixing what? stereo what?
There are often multiple mixes happening: monitors, PA, sub-group busses, sometimes a recording matrix, etc.
Mixing in stereo? does that mean using a stereo board with a 2-bus out?
People use different terms for things and what might seem clear to you may not be to someone else.  Ever ask a sound guy for a 'soundboard feed' and get a puzzled look? It helps to be really specific.

Asking specifically if the same information is coming out of each speaker is about a straightforward as it gets.

..the myth of 'audience ambience' being desirable.

No myth.  It is a very desirable aspect which I work hard to balance with the clear, direct sound in my recordings.  I agree with you that 'stack-taping' is often used in a pejorative sense around here which is unfortunate and also a misnomer since recording by the board is simply 'stack taping' from farther away.  The real issue is optimizing the direct to reverberant ratio.  More specifically, it's balancing all the the direct sound elements (the FOH stacks, front fills, sound from the onstage instruments and amps themselves which is the 'real' direct stuff, maybe delay towers if you are really far back in a big venue) and the ambient sound elements (reflections, reverb, general crowd reaction, specific nearby individuals, other room noises, HVAC sounds, wind, trains, planes, automobiles and the guy in the icecream truck).   Without enough ambient information, there is little of the live feel, excitement, and feeling of being in the actual space experiencing the event which is a big part of what makes my live recordings so enjoyable for me.  To get the best balance I set up in some unusual places sometimes, and yes, more often than not I like to have a clear, direct line and good proximity to the direct sound sources, which often means somewhere other than right next to the sound board.

Location, location, location.

[Gutbucket]

To get a bit deeper into it, I often prefer to think of stereo recording in terms of direct/ambient instead of left/right.  It's a more basic and important aspect than an even channel balance or stereo image.  I've even gone so far as to record one channel of direct sound and one of ambient sound, instead of one left and one right, to allow better control of that critical balance after the fact, and it can be mixed to stereo in such a way as to not sound dimentionally flat like mono.

[runonce]

Not sure I understand...what is the difference?

Id prefer to ask "Are you mixing in stereo?" - that is the only relevant question..

We'll there are undefined terms there: mixing what? stereo what?
There are often multiple mixes happening: monitors, PA, sub-group busses, sometimes a recording matrix, etc.
Mixing in stereo? does that mean using a stereo board with a 2-bus out?
People use different terms for things and what might seem clear to you may not be to someone else.  Ever ask a sound guy for a 'soundboard feed' and get a puzzled look? It helps to be really specific.

Asking specifically if the same information is coming out of each speaker is about a straightforward as it gets.

..the myth of 'audience ambience' being desirable.

Gut - its very clear from the subject and context - we are talking about the mix coming out of the mains...

Sorry - I've never heard the music coming out of the speakers as referred to as "information"...that is hardly straight forward...I get it...but its not a clear quesiton.

[Gutbucket]

Gut - its very clear from the subject and context - we are talking about the mix coming out of the mains...

Well it's certainly clear to us, but might not be to the sound guy.  I've had experiences where what I assumed were simple questions such as yours were interpreted very differently from what I was trying to ask.  It was somewhat of a wake up call to realize that what I thought was obvious was not to the other person.  The danger is when you and I both know what you mean because we use those terms the same way all the time and it becomes 'obvious' to us.. and then assume that it is obvious to the sound guy too.

Sorry - I've never heard the music coming out of the speakers as referred to as "information"...that is hardly straight forward...I get it...but its not a clear quesiton.

The sound guy would get it too, actually if he has to think a second to be sure and understand what you mean, you may be better off.  The important thing is reducing the possibly that he might assume you mean something else.  Fair enough criticism though, it does sound awkward, how about this:
"Is everything panned center in the house PA?"

[runonce]

Gut - its very clear from the subject and context - we are talking about the mix coming out of the mains...

Well it's certainly clear to us, but might not be to the sound guy.  I've had experiences where what I assumed were simple questions such as yours were interpreted very differently from what I was trying to ask.  It was somewhat of a wake up call to realize that what I thought was obvious was not to the other person.  The danger is when you and I both know what you mean because we use those terms the same way all the time and it becomes 'obvious' to us.. and then assume that it is obvious to the sound guy too.

Sorry - I've never heard the music coming out of the speakers as referred to as "information"...that is hardly straight forward...I get it...but its not a clear quesiton.

The sound guy would get it too, actually if he has to think a second to be sure and understand what you mean, you may be better off.  The important thing is reducing the possibly that he might assume you mean something else.  Fair enough criticism though, it does sound awkward, how about this:
"Is everything panned center in the house PA?"

If you read my post - Im trying to clarify what "easyed" was saying...thats all - not the nunaces of what you ask or dont ask a soundguy...

[Gutbucket]

Id prefer to ask "Are you mixing in stereo?" - that is the only relevant question - not sure what distinction you are going for with this "is the same info coming from both speakers...?"  That sounds confusing...and if someone asked me that I would reply "Do you mean, is this a stereo mix?"

^^^
Isn't this all concerning what hypothetical question you ask the soundguy and if he understands your question?

Sorry, I don't mean to belabor the thing. 

I agree with what easyed says about very limited stereo information if any at all over most PA's.  I find the exception to that is stereo effects- things that are alwasy audible on both sides but swirl around or have a wide stereo 'bed' under them for lack of a better term.  Think stereo leslie cabinet mic'ing, stereo reverb on vocals and percussion, synth pads, etc.

[easyed]

Not sure I understand...what is the difference?

Id prefer to ask "Are you mixing in stereo?" - that is the only relevant question..

We'll there are undefined terms there: mixing what? stereo what?
There are often multiple mixes happening: monitors, PA, sub-group busses, sometimes a recording matrix, etc.
Mixing in stereo? does that mean using a stereo board with a 2-bus out?
People use different terms for things and what might seem clear to you may not be to someone else.  Ever ask a sound guy for a 'soundboard feed' and get a puzzled look? It helps to be really specific.

Asking specifically if the same information is coming out of each speaker is about a straightforward as it gets.

..the myth of 'audience ambience' being desirable.

No myth.  It is a very desirable aspect which I work hard to balance with the clear, direct sound in my recordings.  I agree with you that 'stack-taping' is often used in a pejorative sense around here which is unfortunate and also a misnomer since recording by the board is simply 'stack taping' from farther away.  The real issue is optimizing the direct to reverberant ratio.  More specifically, it's balancing all the the direct sound elements (the FOH stacks, front fills, sound from the onstage instruments and amps themselves which is the 'real' direct stuff, maybe delay towers if you are really far back in a big venue) and the ambient sound elements (reflections, reverb, general crowd reaction, specific nearby individuals, other room noises, HVAC sounds, wind, trains, planes, automobiles and the guy in the icecream truck).   Without enough ambient information, there is little of the live feel, excitement, and feeling of being in the actual space experiencing the event which is a big part of what makes my live recordings so enjoyable for me.  To get the best balance I set up in some unusual places sometimes, and yes, more often than not I like to have a clear, direct line and good proximity to the direct sound sources, which often means somewhere other than right next to the sound board.

Location, location, location.

If I ask the soundman 'are you mixing in stereo?' he very well may be, but a stereo mix may not be what is feeding the mains, which is where the sound that the audience hears comes from.  The other suggestion, asking 'is everything panned center in the house PA?' is a very precise and useful alternative question - try asking it in venues small and large and see what answers you get.

Yes I like to hear crowd reaction but when 'ambience' means echoey distant vocals, no thanks.  And when recording music made up of acoustic instruments, getting any distance at all from the mains make the acoustic instruments sound thin and echoey - again, no thanks.

But recordings are like coffee - everybody likes theirs brewed a little differently (or like wine, where variety is what make them interesting).  Most of all I would endorse the behavior of people like GutBucket, who continually assess the results of their recordings and think about how to get better results and then try experiments to improve their recordings and then assess the results and rinse and repeat.  As opposed to somebody who records from the balcony with a Zoom in their pocket using internal mics and thinks the recording is great and doesn't even think about trying another approach for better results.

My opinions - worth at least half of what you paid for them....

[Gutbucket]

My opinions - worth at least half of what you paid for them....

Your commission check is in the mail. 

One of my favorite locations is right in front of a stage front center fill speaker if the venue is running them- gets stereo image and pure goodness from the non-PA'd direct on-stage sound stage of the instruments; reinforcement by the center fill for clarity, presence and help for anything weak on-stage like vocals, etc; great crowd excitement directly behind (were i want it in my surround recordings, but also more managable for stereo recordings using typical directional mic stereo configs); and usually a good balance of just the right abount of reverb and 'room sound'.. even if that 'room' is an ampitheater.

Just more opinion, and worth just as much..