Topic: ideas to improve my taping gear / sound please

[trevtdogg]

Hey all,

I've been doing very amateur taping of gigs since about 2000, mostly with MD / HiMD / iriver H340 and a sony ecm-ms907.  Started off mostly stealthing other bands and my own demos at home, now mostly taping my bands shows for the LMA:

http://www.archive.org/details/Charm

but i've been meaning to update my setup for a while, and don't have as much time to research things as i used to.  so i'm looking for the quick easy answer from you all to help

only 1 show up there is a sbd, rest are the sony 907 mic going into either the iriver h340 or the sony mz-nh1.  i usually run the mic into the h340, and the use the nh1 for a sbd grab.  keep em both for future matrix mixes or whatever.  the mic is usually near the sound board, normally up high if i can and with the 120 degree selector on.  some shows i run it almost flat against a FOH stack in stead, or somewhere i think the guitar will carry and stand out as the sound guys normally keep the guitar too low in the mix for our taste!

listening to the recordings what would you suggest i do to improve the sound of the recordings?

i'm thinking of getting maybe the CA-14 omnis, and possibly upgrading to a sony pcm m-10.  if i went this way, would i need any other gear to either power the mics, or for gain, or for an adc if the on-board adc in the sony isn't that good?

last gig the h340 had a bit of skipping on the recording for the 1st time ever, bits of seconds went missing here and there over only about 30 secs of the recording, and i noticed when i pushed stop it was saying "warning"  something where the file name would be.

appreciate any suggestions and advice, cheers.

-trev.

[acidjack]

Very short and very easy answer is, replace that mic.  The rest of your gear is perfectly fine for what you want to do, though of course, your budget will inform how many and what upgrades you want.  The weakest piece of gear you have is that Sony single-point stereo mic, by far.  A basic set of $139 Church Audio mics will vastly improve your recordings; there are used mics in the Yard Sale for even less, like AT 853s as well as some Church mics, that could do the trick. But again, it depends what you want to spend. 

Assuming you record loud shows mostly, you'll just need a simple CA-UBB battery box ($39) to power the mics.  I think your thought of going CA-14 is a good one in your price range. 

The M-10 is a very nice deck, much better battery life than what you have, but it won't improve the sound of your recordings nearly as much as the change in mics. Any small deck that is functioning will probably work, but yes, the M10 is the best of the lot.  I just recorded an entire festival (16hrs music) plus a wilco show, plus a few other shows, and my batts are still showing 100% full.  The battery life is uh, amazing. 

[twatts (pants are so over-rated...)]

new mics

[adrianf74]

Agreed.  New mics and a battery box if you don't have one lying around.  You could get a preamp but I'm gathering the shows you're going to are plenty loud enough.

The M10 is a good recorder but the mics/battery box will be the single greatest improvement in your chain.

[Church-Audio]

Hey all,

I've been doing very amateur taping of gigs since about 2000, mostly with MD / HiMD / iriver H340 and a sony ecm-ms907.  Started off mostly stealthing other bands and my own demos at home, now mostly taping my bands shows for the LMA:

http://www.archive.org/details/Charm

but i've been meaning to update my setup for a while, and don't have as much time to research things as i used to.  so i'm looking for the quick easy answer from you all to help

only 1 show up there is a sbd, rest are the sony 907 mic going into either the iriver h340 or the sony mz-nh1.  i usually run the mic into the h340, and the use the nh1 for a sbd grab.  keep em both for future matrix mixes or whatever.  the mic is usually near the sound board, normally up high if i can and with the 120 degree selector on.  some shows i run it almost flat against a FOH stack in stead, or somewhere i think the guitar will carry and stand out as the sound guys normally keep the guitar too low in the mix for our taste!

listening to the recordings what would you suggest i do to improve the sound of the recordings?

i'm thinking of getting maybe the CA-14 omnis, and possibly upgrading to a sony pcm m-10.  if i went this way, would i need any other gear to either power the mics, or for gain, or for an adc if the on-board adc in the sony isn't that good?

last gig the h340 had a bit of skipping on the recording for the 1st time ever, bits of seconds went missing here and there over only about 30 secs of the recording, and i noticed when i pushed stop it was saying "warning"  something where the file name would be.

appreciate any suggestions and advice, cheers.

-trev.

My omni mics are great for good sounding rooms and when you are close to the source. If you are always further away get my cards. I have a new package that includes my ca14 omni ca-14 card + a battery box for $189.99 the sony md recorder is very VERY good recorder you will not notice much improvement over the m10.

[trevtdogg]

thanks guys!  yeah don't have a battery box, always used the sony 907 mic with it's own aa battery so never needed one.

CA dude - is it much cheaper to get that pack with just the omni instead?  i know that sorta defeats the purpose of the pack and what you are suggesting, but i'm thinking if i get both i'll prob end up just using one 99% of the time (whichever i think will give the best sound, and from my limited research i'm thinking i'll like omnis better than cards) and leaving the other to waste in a drawer at home.

only reason i've been thinking of upgrading my recorder is for reliability - especially how the last show was the first time the h340 has skipped in a recording.  the nh1 has crap battery, and importing things with sonic stage is a real pain when you have to do it more than once a blue moon.

I'll keep using the h340 for now (rockboxed it has some awesome recording features like customisable pre-record time up to 60 secs) and hopefully it holds up and the skipping was a one off.

any other mic suggestions other than CA's or AT 853 that you guys think i should look at, or realistically is that about the best mic / $ deal i'm gonna get for my use?

[acidjack]

The CA's or AT853s are about the best mic you can get without jumping to either fullsize mics or 5x or more in price. 

I'd get the package.  Unless you always tape up close, you will want to have the cardiod mics handy.

[Fried Chicken Boy]

The Church package is the way to go and they're very good mics: two sets of CA-14's and a battery box for under $200 is a steal.  That's less than what I paid for a single set of my first decent taper's mics and a battery box.  Worst case scenario, if you find that you really don't use one of the sets you can always unload them to another taper.

[Ghost of sml42]

last gig the h340 had a bit of skipping on the recording for the 1st time ever, bits of seconds went missing here and there over only about 30 secs of the recording, and i noticed when i pushed stop it was saying "warning"  something where the file name would be.

this would give me cause for concern. if it were me, i would run it at home for a few hours in front of the hifi, see if it skips again. it could just be a glitch - goodness knows i've dealt with enough temperamental equipment over the years - or it could be a warning sign the deck is on its way out. if it misbehaves again i would replace the deck asap. the m10 you mention is a solid piece of gear - i'm very pleased with mine.

but apart from that, i agree upgrading your mics will give you the biggest improvement. no direct personal experience of the church audio mics, but there are plenty of ca-sourced recordings out there if you want to listen first.

[Belexes]

New mics as is stated above and always try and get the into the best sounding location in the room/venue.

My last ticket request: "please select for me a ticket 10 rows back from the stage dead center." 

[Church-Audio]

thanks guys!  yeah don't have a battery box, always used the sony 907 mic with it's own aa battery so never needed one.

CA dude - is it much cheaper to get that pack with just the omni instead?  i know that sorta defeats the purpose of the pack and what you are suggesting, but i'm thinking if i get both i'll prob end up just using one 99% of the time (whichever i think will give the best sound, and from my limited research i'm thinking i'll like omnis better than cards) and leaving the other to waste in a drawer at home.

only reason i've been thinking of upgrading my recorder is for reliability - especially how the last show was the first time the h340 has skipped in a recording.  the nh1 has crap battery, and importing things with sonic stage is a real pain when you have to do it more than once a blue moon.

I'll keep using the h340 for now (rockboxed it has some awesome recording features like customisable pre-record time up to 60 secs) and hopefully it holds up and the skipping was a one off.

any other mic suggestions other than CA's or AT 853 that you guys think i should look at, or realistically is that about the best mic / $ deal i'm gonna get for my use?

I would get this, Ca-14 card + ca-14 omni + battery box for $189.99 if you are going to get something this will work nicely especially with your MD.

Free shipping this month as well.

Chris AKA "CA DUDE" I like that lol

[newplanet7]

i know that sorta defeats the purpose of the pack and what you are suggesting, but i'm thinking if i get both i'll prob end up just using one 99% of the time (whichever i think will give the best sound, and from my limited research i'm thinking i'll like omnis better than cards) and leaving the other to waste in a drawer at home.

I'm not understanding all this talk with omnis being THE pattern around here lately.
They aren't something you will get great pulls with every time.
In the right situation, for sure, omnis will give you what you want. But get both because cards will be there
the other times where omnis aren't suitable, which is a ton.

[acidjack]

i know that sorta defeats the purpose of the pack and what you are suggesting, but i'm thinking if i get both i'll prob end up just using one 99% of the time (whichever i think will give the best sound, and from my limited research i'm thinking i'll like omnis better than cards) and leaving the other to waste in a drawer at home.

I'm not understanding all this talk with omnis being THE pattern around here lately.
They aren't something you will get great pulls with every time.
In the right situation, for sure, omnis will give you what you want. But get both because cards will be there
the other times where omnis aren't suitable, which is a ton.

Like many TS trends (LD mics, small mics, this brand, that brand) you're absolutely right that that claim deserves some serious scrutiny.  Even for outdoors, I'm not so convinced the current CW around here is absolutely right about it.

It is true, I think, that in the subminiature mic category, omnis tend to be better performing overall - in that they have a more normal frequency response - than small cardiods.  That doesn't change that in a bad room, in a non-optimum spot, you'd still be better off with the less-than-ideal subminiature cardiod.

[newplanet7]

Thanks brother. Thought I was losing it for second.
Making up numbers, I'd say 75% of the board here doesn't even own omnis. That speaks volumes IMHO.
Yet Most have a great set of cards. I just don't want new tapers to think omnis are it
and get discouraged when they use them in all the wrong situations and come home with a boomy, chatty turd.

[Church-Audio]

Thanks brother. Thought I was losing it for second.
Making up numbers, I'd say 75% of the board here doesn't even own omnis. That speaks volumes IMHO.
Yet Most have a great set of cards. I just don't want new tapers to think omnis are it
and get discouraged when they use them in all the wrong situations and come home with a boomy, chatty turd.

If I was actively taping and I am not ( too busy building gear these days ) I would have both omni and card with me at all times. And once you arrive at the venue make your decision then. Because unless its a venue you know well its hard to say that omni will work or Card will work. In some situations omni is the only way to go when you want real fidelity. In other situation the only hope you have of a good capture is a cardioid. Anyone that says use one or the other with out first being in the venue is blowing smoke up your ass and wasting your time. Every venue is different every situation is different. Its like fishing you would never go to a lake with one lure you would bring a tackle box. I would never do sound for a band with just one mic I would bring several and during the pre tour rehearsal I might have as many as 50 different mics to try out for different things.

[newplanet7]

Pretty much what I was saying. ^^^
A ton of recs around here for just getting omnis. It's not right.

[aaronji]

^^^ Interesting that you say that.  My impression is that, in general, the vast majority of recommendations on the site are for cardioids, with a handful of omni, hyper or wide-card suggestions sprinkled in...

Which one is better depends a lot on the situations in which you're taping, in my opinion.  Like Chris said, it's good to have both...For the bands/rooms I usually record in, omnis are great, but I have a pair of cards that I also use for some venues and artists.  If I could only have one, I would take the omnis as they are the right choice for me about 90% of the time.  I think for most of the members here, though, that's probably reversed (cards are better 90% of the time).

In any event, for the OP's intended use (taping his own band's performances), omnis might be a good choice because he can presumably go on-stage...

It is true, I think, that in the subminiature mic category, omnis tend to be better performing overall - in that they have a more normal frequency response - than small cardiods.

I think that is generally true with larger mics too, particularly in the low-end...

[acidjack]

Thanks brother. Thought I was losing it for second.
Making up numbers, I'd say 75% of the board here doesn't even own omnis. That speaks volumes IMHO.
Yet Most have a great set of cards. I just don't want new tapers to think omnis are it
and get discouraged when they use them in all the wrong situations and come home with a boomy, chatty turd.

If I was actively taping and I am not ( too busy building gear these days ) I would have both omni and card with me at all times. And once you arrive at the venue make your decision then. Because unless its a venue you know well its hard to say that omni will work or Card will work. In some situations omni is the only way to go when you want real fidelity. In other situation the only hope you have of a good capture is a cardioid. Anyone that says use one or the other with out first being in the venue is blowing smoke up your ass and wasting your time. Every venue is different every situation is different. Its like fishing you would never go to a lake with one lure you would bring a tackle box. I would never do sound for a band with just one mic I would bring several and during the pre tour rehearsal I might have as many as 50 different mics to try out for different things.

I don't disagree with you, but I think if you are talking about only having ONE set of mics, which a lot of guys do, I'd say to get the cardiods unless you are always in a great spot. 

Your original advice, which we've all echoed, to get your omni+card package, is the ideal. 

[stevetoney]

I might be wrong, but I think the reason people are gushing about the omni's is that when I had both the CA-14 cards and omni's, in ideal situations I felt that the omni recordings sounded better than anything I ever got with the cards.  That made me feel more passion for using the omni's whenever I could.  Like I said, not sure if that's the source of people's recommending the CA-14O, but probably.  I'd also say this though, omni's as you move back in the room progressively sound shittier and shittier.

That said, for $189 there's no way you shouldn't get both for reasons people have already stated.  You don't appreciate it now because you don't have the experience, but you'll appreciate having both later once you have the chance to get a better feel for where to use each mic.  If your budget is such that you have to choose between one or the other, $189 really isn't much at all to spend in this hobby, so just wait until you can afford $189 or work an extra shift or something. 

Trust us.   

PS:  You can trust CA Dude too.  He gives the straight scoop even though he's the seller.  He's sold tons of gear here, so it wouldn't serve him well to fluff crappy gear or steer you wrong.

[burris]

For audience taping of rock bands you'll never need omnis.  99% of the rooms you record in sound like crap, especially when you factor in yakking, hollering, whistling, people ordering drinks, and the crashing of bottles.  Cardioids will always work great if you know how to use them.  Take what you would spend on two pairs of mics and get one better pair of cardioids.  Unless you want to do a lot of multitrack recording you shouldn't get a second pair of mics until you have traded up to what you think are the best sounding cardioids on the market.

My main stereo pair has been in production since 1983 and I've had mine for 16 years.  Lots of people still taping shows with mics they have had for 20+ years that are still made by the manufacturer.  No worries about mics going obsolete so get the best ones you can afford.

Step one is to figure out what your budget is.
Step two is to listen to lots of recordings made with mics in your price range.  It won't take long before you start forming your own opinions.

[Church-Audio]

For audience taping of rock bands you'll never need omnis.  99% of the rooms you record in sound like crap, especially when you factor in yakking, hollering, whistling, people ordering drinks, and the crashing of bottles.  Cardioids will always work great if you know how to use them.  Take what you would spend on two pairs of mics and get one better pair of cardioids.  Unless you want to do a lot of multitrack recording you shouldn't get a second pair of mics until you have traded up to what you think are the best sounding cardioids on the market.

My main stereo pair has been in production since 1983 and I've had mine for 16 years.  Lots of people still taping shows with mics they have had for 20+ years that are still made by the manufacturer.  No worries about mics going obsolete so get the best ones you can afford.

Step one is to figure out what your budget is.
Step two is to listen to lots of recordings made with mics in your price range.  It won't take long before you start forming your own opinions.

Some of the best recordings I have ever heard as a live sound engineer for over 20+ years have been omni mics. It really does not depend on the room so much as where you are in that room in relation to the sound system and how good the mix is.


Chris

[Belexes]

For audience taping of rock bands you'll never need omnis.

Most outdoor omni recordings I have done, not under an amphitheater roof, of rock bands absolutely smoke anything a cardioid pattern would produce.

[trevtdogg]

thanks heaps for everyone's input - i've decided to go with the Church Audio omni + cards + box bundle, have emailed Chris back and forth and sent payment.

Will keep my eyes open for a cheap sony m-10 to replace the h340 as my main recording unit, but my band mate has just ordered an edirol R09 from ebay so we'll be able to test that out too whenever it arrives.

[adrianf74]

Some of the best recordings I have ever heard as a live sound engineer for over 20+ years have been omni mics. It really does not depend on the room so much as where you are in that room in relation to the sound system and how good the mix is.

+1 to this.  It's a matter of where you are in the room.  I've had an opprortunity to often run my omnis against a friends AKG 480's with Card Caps and I'll take my omni recording (with Chris' mics) over his cards.  And this was both indoor and outdoor.  This was only one instance where he ran the Hypers and both my mics (running to M10's) were weak recordings because the sound system wasn't loud enough.

I've said this before, there are going to be people who love their cards and then there are going to be those who love their omnis.   I generally fall into the latter (and have been more-so of late as I've been using the omnis almost 100% of the time with good to excellent results).  Let's just say that EITHER mic from Chris is a good choice and let the OP experiment on their own. 

[Belexes]

I've said this before, there are going to be people who love their cards and then there are going to be those who love their omnis.   I generally fall into the latter (and have been more-so of late as I've been using the omnis almost 100% of the time with good to excellent results).  Let's just say that EITHER mic from Chris is a good choice and let the OP experiment on their own. 

I like to have a lot of options depending on where and what I am taping and hold no allegiance to any one pattern. Most folks here that are new may have limited funds and want that one magic pair of mics.  When funds are available, add more patterns to your gear and experiment. That is what make this hobby fun!

[adrianf74]

I like to have a lot of options depending on where and what I am taping and hold no allegiance to any one pattern. Most folks here that are new may have limited funds and want that one magic pair of mics.  When funds are available, add more patterns to your gear and experiment. That is what make this hobby fun!

I agree.  I usually bring both sets of mics with me (cards and omnis) and decide what I'm going with ONCE I'm inside the venue.   If I can get close enough I'll run the omnis but if I'm stuck back by the soundboad, I'll often run the cards "just because."   There is no one-size fits all mic or pattern in any of this.  I think the OP is going to be happy having bought both CA-14's with a preamp for not much more than what I paid 16 years ago for my first binaural mic set.

[newplanet7]

All I'm saying is let's not only go with one pattern and suggest the new OP go with one pattern being omnis.
Simple.

[George]

The at's are cool for owning one pair of bodies and then rolling out the various caps, but man, the omni caps are pricey for some reason.  Looks like the Church mics are the way to go.  IMHO, go with cards first.  It's the safe bet and hell, they still sound tight pretty up close.

[F.O.Bean]

I would choose HYPERS if I had to choose 1 option

[newplanet7]

I would choose HYPERS if I had to choose 1 option

[acidjack]

I would choose HYPERS if I had to choose 1 option

If you're talking about hypers like Schoeps Mk41s, I think that's a defensible position, but not for sub-miniature mics like the AT853 and the various Church products (where there is no hyper, and probably for good reason).  What few hypers there are in that category sound, IMO, utterly horrible.  I think the worst tapes I have made were with the 853 hypers.  And I loved many of my pulls with those mics with other patterns.

[F.O.Bean]

Yeah I agree with you. You have to spend BIG BUCKS to get HQ hypers Whereas a cheap omni/card arent that hard to manufacture

[Brian E.]

definitely go with the CA-14 package.  I have both cards and omnis.  I use the cards 90% of the time, but sometimes a room sounds so good and has a good crowd so I'll try omnis.

[Javier Cinakowski]

Yeah I agree with you. You have to spend BIG BUCKS to get HQ hypers Whereas a cheap omni/card arent that hard to manufacture

I agree with that, perhaps with 1 or two exceptions.  The audix hyper m1280h, is quite impressive and likely the best hyper electret I have ever heard.  Another strong contender is the Studio Projects C4 hyper cap.  They can be run on the Rode bodies.  The Rode NT6 or NT55 with SP's hyper cap is a damn fine inexpensive hyper setup.  It might not be as good as 483, but damn close.   

I agree with the previous comments about the 853 hypers, they are about as light in the low end as it gets. 

[acidjack]

^^ Do you like the Audix hypers more than the cards?  I notice that the frequency response plot for the hypers is actually flatter than the for the cards.  I've considered getting the hypers to use as a stealth rig when I can't get close, but I've been curious if the performance would be worth doing that.

[adrianf74]

^^ Do you like the Audix hypers more than the cards?  I notice that the frequency response plot for the hypers is actually flatter than the for the cards.  I've considered getting the hypers to use as a stealth rig when I can't get close, but I've been curious if the performance would be worth doing that.

Interesting.  I know that Chris also offers a tighter card configuration (apparently closer to being in line with hypers) and I'm almost tempted to go that route for the pair I just bought for the exact same reason.  If I can get close enough, I usually got with my 4061's but if I'm stuck by the board in a club (or in an arena/amphitheatre, etc.), I'd like to have something that might help me a bit more.

[F.O.Bean]

^^ Do you like the Audix hypers more than the cards?  I notice that the frequency response plot for the hypers is actually flatter than the for the cards.  I've considered getting the hypers to use as a stealth rig when I can't get close, but I've been curious if the performance would be worth doing that.

Interesting.  I know that Chris also offers a tighter card configuration (apparently closer to being in line with hypers) and I'm almost tempted to go that route for the pair I just bought for the exact same reason.  If I can get close enough, I usually got with my 4061's but if I'm stuck by the board in a club (or in an arena/amphitheatre, etc.), I'd like to have something that might help me a bit more.

Its DEF worth a try

[trevtdogg]

so my mic's and box (ca14 omnis + cards and box) finally arrived!  have tried testing them a bit, but hopefully a quick question....

how do i tell the omnis apart form the cards? they look almost identical, although one has a small red ring around the cords near the 3.5mm plug, and one has just a black ring.  is this a hint?

also, how do you tell L from R? does it matter?  i think on one pair at least one mic is slightly longer than the other, is this a hint?

[Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B)]

To tell left from right I just make a noise close to one. Whatever channel it turns up as on the recorder is what side it is.

I'm under the impression that it's best not to blow on them or tap them to test them. Snapping your fingers works well.

[TimeBandit]

after testing what L/R just mark one side with a bit red tape - usually what i did.

[F.O.Bean]

Red means Omni, right?

[Soling]

Yes

[Brian E.]

after testing what L/R just mark one side with a bit red tape - usually what i did.

I wrote on mine with silver marker - L/R

[trevtdogg]

i realise the L + R question was a bit dumb, as yes i can just make a noise at look at the meters.

but for cards V omnis: red = omni huh? thanks!

[trevtdogg]

ok first recording with the new mics is up, be interested to see if you guys can hear much of a difference or have further advice?

http://www.archive.org/details/charm2012-01-19.ca14o.flac16

was using the omnis i'm pretty sure, up near the lighting rig about 5 metres back from middle of stage and about 2 metres off the ground, mics were about 1-2 feet apart.

we'd never played this room before though so have nothing else similar to compare it to.