Topic: Taping an outdoor concert

[pridix]

Hi!

Tomorrow night I'm going to tape Coldplay. This is gonna be my first long and real tape. The venue is the Estadio Vicente Calderón de Madrid and I'm going to be standing, more or less 30meters away from the stage and (I hope) in the center (see the red dot in the pic for more details). I'm going to tape with my Tascam DR40 + PFA and I can use AT853 (I have cards, hypercards, omnis and UE-C) or MM-HSLO (4,7k mod). I think I should use AT cards there (AT853-H or UE-C). Am I right? Also no bass roll off, should I?

Thank you.

[bryonsos]

I'm the wrong person to ask which mics to use, I'll always say omnis    But having said that, your red dot looks like a good starting point. One rule of thumb is the triangle theory where you would stand at the third corner of an equilateral triangle with the stacks as the other 2 corners. The dot looks close to that. During the opener, I would move forward and back to listen for the sweet spot. Happy taping!

[pridix]

Thank you so much for the info! I'll try to find the sweet spot. Anyway...I don't want to tape the crowd chatting close to me...so omnis...I don't know. That's why I'm asking

[bryonsos]

Thank you so much for the info! I'll try to find the sweet spot. Anyway...I don't want to tape the crowd chatting close to me...so omnis...I don't know. That's why I'm asking

If the crowd is rowdy, cards will still hear the ones in front of you. To me, I'd rather have a little extra freedom to move (including your head), and omnis are much more forgiving in this regard. If you get the mics up on your head, hat mounted or on glasses, you should be able to make a decent tape with any of your gear from up front, well except the hypers, I'd definitely leave them at home. If you're worried about crowd noise, then maybe consider stack taping.

[Myco]

Thank you so much for the info! I'll try to find the sweet spot. Anyway...I don't want to tape the crowd chatting close to me...so omnis...I don't know. That's why I'm asking

If the crowd is rowdy, cards will still hear the ones in front of you. To me, I'd rather have a little extra freedom to move (including your head), and omnis are much more forgiving in this regard. If you get the mics up on your head, hat mounted or on glasses, you should be able to make a decent tape with any of your gear from up front, well except the hypers, I'd definitely leave them at home. If you're worried about crowd noise, then maybe consider stack taping.

I'd second this as good advice, but I wouldn't think Coldplay would have an exceptionally loud & rowdy audience.
Maybe, based on your proximity to the front of the stage, i"d go with the omni's because this band isn't really known to be too drum/bass heavy also. I can't say that I know this for fact, I'm just reasoning here. I've never seen Coldplay live, only live on tv or video.

[pridix]

Thank you so much for the info! I'll try to find the sweet spot. Anyway...I don't want to tape the crowd chatting close to me...so omnis...I don't know. That's why I'm asking

If the crowd is rowdy, cards will still hear the ones in front of you. To me, I'd rather have a little extra freedom to move (including your head), and omnis are much more forgiving in this regard. If you get the mics up on your head, hat mounted or on glasses, you should be able to make a decent tape with any of your gear from up front, well except the hypers, I'd definitely leave them at home. If you're worried about crowd noise, then maybe consider stack taping.

I'd second this as good advice, but I wouldn't think Coldplay would have an exceptionally loud & rowdy audience.
Maybe, based on your proximity to the front of the stage, i"d go with the omni's because this band isn't really known to be too drum/heavy also. I can't say that I know this for fact, I'm just reasoning here. I've never seen Coldplay live, only live on tv or video.

Ok, than you guys! I'll leave the hypers at home then. I'll go both with omnis and UE-C and I'll do some tests during the opening show. I'll have them baseball cap mounted just above my ears in the place between the ears and the face.

[Myco]

Thank you so much for the info! I'll try to find the sweet spot. Anyway...I don't want to tape the crowd chatting close to me...so omnis...I don't know. That's why I'm asking

If the crowd is rowdy, cards will still hear the ones in front of you. To me, I'd rather have a little extra freedom to move (including your head), and omnis are much more forgiving in this regard. If you get the mics up on your head, hat mounted or on glasses, you should be able to make a decent tape with any of your gear from up front, well except the hypers, I'd definitely leave them at home. If you're worried about crowd noise, then maybe consider stack taping.

I'd second this as good advice, but I wouldn't think Coldplay would have an exceptionally loud & rowdy audience.
Maybe, based on your proximity to the front of the stage, i"d go with the omni's because this band isn't really known to be too drum/heavy also. I can't say that I know this for fact, I'm just reasoning here. I've never seen Coldplay live, only live on tv or video.

Ok, than you guys! I'll leave the hypers at home then. I'll go both with omnis and UE-C and I'll do some tests during the opening show. I'll have them baseball cap mounted just above my ears in the place between the ears and the face.

No problem. We'd be interested to see how it turns out for you. 

[pridix]

No problem. We'd be interested to see how it turns out for you. 
[/quote]

I'll leave feedback as soon as I come back from the concert And I'll post a link if someone want it hehe.

[bryonsos]

You're welcome! And your plan to move around and try things during the opener is spot on. Good luck!

[OldNeumanntapr]

Just be mindful of wind. (I just taped Los Lobos out doors at a golf resort in Nipomo, CA and it was in a wind tunnel! It would have been much better of a recording except for the wind.)

I have used omnis and cardioids. It all depends on the crowd around you. The omnis pick up noise all all around, but are much more forgiving if you have to turn your head.

Good luck!

[adrianf74]

More or less what's already been said.

Omnis, windscreens if you can (just in case).   Cardioid mics are NOT forgiving when it comes to wind so if it's a windy (or even "breezy" day), I'd go with the omnis.  I also prefer the way omnis sound outdoors to cards (and this has been several times between the CA-14 omnis and DPA 4061s compared to the CA-14 cards and AKG 481/3's.

[pridix]

More or less what's already been said.

Omnis, windscreens if you can (just in case).   Cardioid mics are NOT forgiving when it comes to wind so if it's a windy (or even "breezy" day), I'd go with the omnis.  I also prefer the way omnis sound outdoors to cards (and this has been several times between the CA-14 omnis and DPA 4061s compared to the CA-14 cards and AKG 481/3's.

It's a pity I can't run them both haha. I have windscreens but it's more stealth if I don't use them. In that case I MUST use Omnis. Okay. Thank you guys! I'll let you know as soon as I do the backup of the concert to my pc!

[pridix]

Is there any trick to avoid claps in the recording? I have a few concerts taped with MM-HSLO and I love the sound even with the background chatting noise but...CLAPS are horrible.

[adrianf74]

Is there any trick to avoid claps in the recording? I have a few concerts taped with MM-HSLO and I love the sound even with the background chatting noise but...CLAPS are horrible.

I just live with it -- lets me relive what I originally heard.  However, you can go through the wave file while working on it in post and drop the levels on the claps individually.  It's a bit of work.   I know some people apply filters and what-not but I refuse to do it that way.  Call me old school...

[twatts (pants are so over-rated...)]

My wife wants to hear your tape!

Terry

[daspyknows]

Is there any trick to avoid claps in the recording? I have a few concerts taped with MM-HSLO and I love the sound even with the background chatting noise but...CLAPS are horrible.

stun guns and other non supported methods  .  I usually try and make friends with a few folks around me using bribery.  Its definitely hit or miss though.  If successful you will be surrounded by 4 or 5 people who want your recording more than you.

[OldNeumanntapr]

Definitely hit or miss. 

[daspyknows]

Definitely hit or miss. 

Yep.  Roger Waters was sort of a miss but my Clapton Winwood from Antwerp was perfect.  I had a few crew around me and it helped.

[pridix]

Hi again guys!

Two terrible things screwed out my tape. First of all, after setting all the gear in my body, with all the cables hidden and the mics perfectly set in my CAP...started to RAIN CATS AND DOGs and also to hail. I tried to keep my gear on but it was so fucking heavy so I was scary about my gear and I had to keep my gear in my pockets. The second problem is...I don't know how (newbie in here) my mics (both omnis an cards) raise the peak level most of the time...with the gain set to 0...Do I have a BIG problem? Should I buy -20dB pads?.

Thank you. I'm fucking sad but I know that taping is patience and experience so...no problem I'll try again and again...

PS: Also I want to know how you tape when it rains VERY VERY heavy.

[Myco]

Hi again guys!

Two terrible things screwed out my tape. First of all, after setting all the gear in my body, with all the cables hidden and the mics perfectly set in my CAP...started to RAIN CATS AND DOGs and also to hail. I tried to keep my gear on but it was so fucking heavy so I was scary about my gear and I had to keep my gear in my pockets. The second problem is...I don't know how (newbie in here) my mics (both omnis an cards) raise the peak level most of the time...with the gain set to 0...Do I have a BIG problem? Should I buy -20dB pads?.

Thank you. I'm fucking sad but I know that taping is patience and experience so...no problem I'll try again and again...

PS: Also I want to know how you tape when it rains VERY VERY heavy.

That's really too bad, but keep at it, we all have those types of shows. Quite often actually. Tough to say what exactly caused your varying levels, but the moisture may have had something to do with it.

If you ever do find an answer to your last question, I do hope you share it with the rest of us, because I've never found a way to tape in very, very heavy rain. 

[acidjack]

Hi again guys!

Two terrible things screwed out my tape. First of all, after setting all the gear in my body, with all the cables hidden and the mics perfectly set in my CAP...started to RAIN CATS AND DOGs and also to hail. I tried to keep my gear on but it was so fucking heavy so I was scary about my gear and I had to keep my gear in my pockets. The second problem is...I don't know how (newbie in here) my mics (both omnis an cards) raise the peak level most of the time...with the gain set to 0...Do I have a BIG problem? Should I buy -20dB pads?.

Thank you. I'm fucking sad but I know that taping is patience and experience so...no problem I'll try again and again...

PS: Also I want to know how you tape when it rains VERY VERY heavy.

That's really too bad, but keep at it, we all have those types of shows. Quite often actually. Tough to say what exactly caused your varying levels, but the moisture may have had something to do with it.

If you ever do find an answer to your last question, I do hope you share it with the rest of us, because I've never found a way to tape in very, very heavy rain. 

With a stand, if you aren't too worried about your mics, a stand umbrella will do the trick.

The only time I was semi-"stealthing" (it was a stealth w/o guilt type thing) and I didn't have an umbrella, I threw my friend's fairly thin shirt over my head and the mics to make a sort of "hood".  It actually worked out OK, but not something I'd do again if I could avoid it.

[bryonsos]

In a    situation where you absolutely have to tape in the rain, you could cover the mics with small plastic bags. You'll probably lose some dynamic range, but the mics will be protected.

[stevetoney]

I've never done it, but some people say condoms work well...and if you're young and single they're probably always handy as well. 

Sorry about your first experience.  It's always frustrating to have things happen that ruin a recordings. 

If it's any consolation, you're not alone.  Most of us were unsuccessful the first time out.  Actually, most of us have had many failures before we learned all of the things NOT to do.  It comes with the hobby and as you gain experience. you get better and better at making sure those things are taken care of ahead of time.  Even though the weather was not in your control, we usually make the mistakes first and learn from them instead of anticipating and avoiding the mistakes in the first place.

That said, in my experience, there's really not alot that you can do to save a recording from really heavy rain.  Light rain is no problem, but when it starts downpouring, I usually just pack it in even if I do have umbrellas, rain fly's etc. 

[pridix]

Thank you to all of you! I feel like home in this forum hahaha. I'll keep learning and getting experience. It's just one battle the one I loss but I will win the WAR (after many years I think hahaha).

Thank you again.

PS: I'll try the condoms or plasticbag but...¿I have to do a little hole in the bag/condom in the point where the mics end (in the capsule) or are the condoms "transparent"?

[Javier Cinakowski]

use large finger cots (for normal sized SDC) or small finger cots for small electret mics.


The cots stretch over the capsule making the rubber thin and acoustically transparent.  I've done some home testing and they really don't change the sound. 
Since they stretch tight they stay on really well too... 

Umbrellas work well too...  put a small towel on top of the unbrella to muffle the rain drops.  You can also stretch panty hose down over the umbrella and tie it off on the stand.  This will keep the umbrella from blowing inside out in heavy wind (and hold your towel in place)...  The little small umbrellas for golf bags work really well.... 

[pridix]

Thank you so much for all the information! 

[OldNeumanntapr]

Sorry that it 'rained on your parade.'  There's really not much you can do when the elements turn nasty like that. Rotten luck.

[pridix]

Thank you to all of you guys!

One more question...Any clue why my DR40 was rising the peak level all the time with my external mics (while gain set to 0) and didn't the internals... I didn't think AT where SO sensible. Should I have to buy -20dB pad? Are they selling them?

[eman]

Something to check- when this happens to me I usually have the source on my recorder accidentally set to "internal mic". Make sure it is set to "line in" and not "mic" or "internal mic". I think you said you have an external preamp, so going into "mic in" will overload the recorder's preamp. It will be bypassed using the "line in" setting. I am sorry if this is obvious to you already but I continue to make beginner mistakes like this from time to time.

[pridix]

Something to check- when this happens to me I usually have the source on my recorder accidentally set to "internal mic". Make sure it is set to "line in" and not "mic" or "internal mic". I think you said you have an external preamp, so going into "mic in" will overload the recorder's preamp. It will be bypassed using the "line in" setting. I am sorry if this is obvious to you already but I continue to make beginner mistakes like this from time to time.

Thank you but I'm not running a preamp. I'm using phantom. So..when I say gain to 0 I mean, input level to 0 in the DR40...:S It's kinda strange...I think

[eman]

I'm not familiar with the DR-40 or the PFA, just saying you want to check settings. You should have been able to test this at home before taking it out to a concert- if it brick walls at 0 then it will brick wall when you record your home stereo. The 853's need to be supplied with the correct voltage, and if you brick walling your mic in, you at least need to try setting it to line in or plugging into line in instead. Either the mics are getting too much voltage or the recorder is. The reason you can get brickwalling at 0 is that the adjustment happens after the signal has already passed through some circuitry that can not handle the signal. I can't say exactly what it is but you need to try something different obviously, or perhaps you have toasted your 853's with too high a phantom voltage. Have you ever made this rig run correctly?

[Myco]

What do you 853's terminate in? Just a 1/8" miniplug, or a xlr with a power module like the AT8533x?

[pridix]

I'm using At853 (minijack end) with Naiant PFA. I tried them at home with my stereo but with another pair of caps and the didn't raise the peak level at 0, not at all... I have to give them 30 more or less with LOUD music. Also in the TASCAM DR40 is just one posible selection to record through XLR with Phantom called MIC+Phantom that is what I used. I'm going to try at home now with the same caps that I used in the concert...

[eman]

Well, that looks about right. I'd still go through all of the settings and switches. Maybe you have a switch or setting to add attenuation to the input, or an input boost option that needs to be turned off.

[pridix]

I'm trying to find it! Thank you both for your help.

[MLKLuke]

Is there any trick to avoid claps in the recording? I have a few concerts taped with MM-HSLO and I love the sound even with the background chatting noise but...CLAPS are horrible.

Adobe Audition "Auto-Heal" function works great to cure loud clapping. it's a hard and boring work if you've got a lot of them cause you have to find them and cure them one by one but it can really help

[Ultfris101]

Is there any trick to avoid claps in the recording? I have a few concerts taped with MM-HSLO and I love the sound even with the background chatting noise but...CLAPS are horrible.

Adobe Audition "Auto-Heal" function works great to cure loud clapping. it's a hard and boring work if you've got a lot of them cause you have to find them and cure them one by one but it can really help

I haven't had to tape in the rain, but I've had several less than perfect outings as most new tapers do. While disappointing I always learn something. For a long time I sat on the sidelines thinking about recording but worrying about all the pitfalls rather than just diving in and pushing forward. Now I'm in the deep end and loving it!

Being new, I'm thinking I need to look into this "Auto-Heal" capability to see if I can fix some things I wasn't so good at manually in Sound Forge. For example, I learned the hard way that while it's not so obtrusive to move the levels on the recorder a bit during a show if you have to, switching the gain level on a preamp leaves an ugly pop. Fixing that without cutting out the section is tough.