Topic: Transfer Comp.: Real-Time S/PDIF vs. Firewire - Files Available for Download

[cshepherd]

Hi Scott,
I think dramatic is a little too subjective for this, but it is not hard to hear.  The firewire transfer does not have as much extention in the treble frequencies, the bass is not as detailed and controlled and dynamics also suffer.  The s/pdif transfer has better spatial cues.  The sound has a shine to it that the firewire transfer clearly does not have.  I played the files for my brother as well as two of my friends.  Nobody needed more than a couple of minutes of listening to agree that the s/pdif transfer was noticeably better.  I heard the difference on three different hi-fi systems.

As for me, I've heard everything I need to hear.  I'm using the real-time transfer from here on out.

Chris

Brian, I'll check your files out this afternoon.

[Shawn]

We set out on a quest to minimize the loss in fidelity that happens going from 24/96>16/44.  It started with an experiment using Vibrapods under the laptop and 722.  We use them under everything in our hi-fi systems.  The difference was noticeable. Noticeable enough to make me delete the original and archived files of the Steve Kimock show I had just finished and start over.  Dale came over and agreed after only a short amount of time spent listening.  

One last question...  are you claiming that putting vibrapod feet under the 722 and the computer when doing a fire wire transfer has an audible difference?

[Brian Skalinder]

As for me, I've heard everything I need to hear.  I'm using the real-time transfer from here on out.

Once again - honest, last time I'll say it - the comp did not effectively compare firewire v. S/PDIF transfer, so to base this decision on the comp doesn't make sense.

Brian, I'll check your files out this afternoon.

If, as you suggest, S/PDIF transfers are superior to firewire transfers, and firewire transfers result in a loss of fidelity, it should be easy to hear the differences in the files and even pick out which file is the S/PDIF source, which the firewire transfer, and which the 20x firewire transfer.  Nothing like a blind comp to get to the bottom of things.  Happy listening. 

[cshepherd]

We set out on a quest to minimize the loss in fidelity that happens going from 24/96>16/44.  It started with an experiment using Vibrapods under the laptop and 722.  We use them under everything in our hi-fi systems.  The difference was noticeable. Noticeable enough to make me delete the original and archived files of the Steve Kimock show I had just finished and start over.  Dale came over and agreed after only a short amount of time spent listening. 

One last question...  are you claiming that putting vibrapod feet under the 722 and the computer when doing a fire wire transfer has an audible difference?

Yes.

As for me, I've heard everything I need to hear.  I'm using the real-time transfer from here on out.

Once again - honest, last time I'll say it - the comp did not effectively compare firewire v. S/PDIF transfer, so to base this decision on the comp doesn't make sense.

Brian, I'll check your files out this afternoon.

If, as you suggest, S/PDIF transfers are superior to firewire transfers, and firewire transfers result in a loss of fidelity, it should be easy to hear the differences in the files and even pick out which file is the S/PDIF source, which the firewire transfer, and which the 20x firewire transfer.  Nothing like a blind comp to get to the bottom of things.  Happy listening. 

If firewire was perfect, the firewire tranfer files would have sounded just like the real time files...Energy Center and all.  You can't improve on perfect, right? 

Chris

[Shawn]

As for me, I've heard everything I need to hear.  I'm using the real-time transfer from here on out.

Once again - honest, last time I'll say it - the comp did not effectively compare firewire v. S/PDIF transfer, so to base this decision on the comp doesn't make sense.

Brian, I'll check your files out this afternoon.

If, as you suggest, S/PDIF transfers are superior to firewire transfers, and firewire transfers result in a loss of fidelity, it should be easy to hear the differences in the files and even pick out which file is the S/PDIF source, which the firewire transfer, and which the 20x firewire transfer.  Nothing like a blind comp to get to the bottom of things.  Happy listening. 

It's obvious he doesn't care Brian. You pretty clearly explained why his test was invalid but he had already made up his mind. It sounds to me like he thought the real time transfer was superior from the begining, in which case you can probably attribute the difference he hears in sound to the placebo effect.

I am willing to bet that if you conducted a true double blind test, with a reasonable number of test cases, that compared real time spdif transfers and fire wire transfers on a set of files with no post processing the results would show people are unable to accuratley and consistently determine one from the other. You could use any playback system you want. It wouldn't matter because the difference is going to be indistinguishable to the human ear.

[Shawn]

We set out on a quest to minimize the loss in fidelity that happens going from 24/96>16/44.  It started with an experiment using Vibrapods under the laptop and 722.  We use them under everything in our hi-fi systems.  The difference was noticeable. Noticeable enough to make me delete the original and archived files of the Steve Kimock show I had just finished and start over.  Dale came over and agreed after only a short amount of time spent listening. 

One last question...  are you claiming that putting vibrapod feet under the 722 and the computer when doing a fire wire transfer has an audible difference?

Yes.

chris I hate to break it to you, but you are just dead wrong there.  do the md5 test with and without the vibrapod. you'll see for yourself.

[Brian Skalinder]

If firewire was perfect, the firewire tranfer files would have sounded just like the real time files...

I don't know how else to say it:  the comp includes too many variables to declare that firewire is the culprit for the loss of fidelity you hear.  Believe what you will, but the suggestion that firewire is the cause of the differences you hear is is not supported by logic or reason.

I controlled for the other variables in my comp.  If you're able to repeatedly identify which file in my blind test - out of the three bit-for-bit identical files - is S/PDIF, I'll eat crow publicly.  And maybe even buy some vibrapods! 

[cshepherd]

We set out on a quest to minimize the loss in fidelity that happens going from 24/96>16/44.  It started with an experiment using Vibrapods under the laptop and 722.  We use them under everything in our hi-fi systems.  The difference was noticeable. Noticeable enough to make me delete the original and archived files of the Steve Kimock show I had just finished and start over.  Dale came over and agreed after only a short amount of time spent listening. 

One last question...  are you claiming that putting vibrapod feet under the 722 and the computer when doing a fire wire transfer has an audible difference?

Yes.

chris I hate to break it to you, but you are just dead wrong there.  do the md5 test with and without the vibrapod. you'll see for yourself.

Do you analize video with your ears and audio with your eyes?  You do the test.  I don't need to. 

edit:  remember, the firewire transfer verified with md5 summer and it doesn't sound as good.

Chris

[Shawn]

We set out on a quest to minimize the loss in fidelity that happens going from 24/96>16/44.  It started with an experiment using Vibrapods under the laptop and 722.  We use them under everything in our hi-fi systems.  The difference was noticeable. Noticeable enough to make me delete the original and archived files of the Steve Kimock show I had just finished and start over.  Dale came over and agreed after only a short amount of time spent listening. 

One last question...  are you claiming that putting vibrapod feet under the 722 and the computer when doing a fire wire transfer has an audible difference?

Yes.

chris I hate to break it to you, but you are just dead wrong there.  do the md5 test with and without the vibrapod. you'll see for yourself.

Do you analize video with your ears and audio with your eyes?  You do the test.  I don't need to.

Chris

chris I don't need to do the test because I can tell you the results. The files will be identical. The vibrapod will not effect a fire wire transfer. In fact it can't effect the transfer. If it did the files would be corrupt, and be unusable. If you hear a difference you are wrong. It's a fact.

[scb]

edit:  remember, the firewire transfer verified with md5 summer and it doesn't sound as good.

Chris

so far, only according to YOU

[cshepherd]

Well, we all know what happens when you assume.  Don't get mad at me.  I would have loved firewire to prove me wrong.  It's insanely more convenient.  I venture not too many people even have 24 bit sound cards these days.  Brian's right...we can't say for sure it's firewire being deficient.  But, something we used during the real time transfer produced better results.  It could be the

FIM Energy Center ($1200) w/the van den Hul Mainsstream Hybrid a/c cord ($485)
Atlas All Cu 1.5m s/pdif cable ($305 retail)
The Atlas EOS a/c power cord ($300) on the computer
My older desktop sounds better than my newer laptop  (my desktop does not have firewire ports)
Samplitude could be unreliable for consistent dithering

You can't discount the improved sound just because the controls weren't tight enough to narrow it down to only one variable.  Brian verified there are differences in the waveforms so you can't say it's psycho-acoustic nonsense.  By everyone's definition, we should not have been able to  improve on a firewire transfer.  I believe these files disprove that assumption.

edit:  remember, the firewire transfer verified with md5 summer and it doesn't sound as good.

Chris

so far, only according to YOU

Scott, three other people came to identical conclusions befeore I even made this post.  It's not just me.  Of course, the downloaded files may not be as pristine as audio cds off of the master files.  But who would buy into that theory.

Chris

[dnsacks]

Chris:

IMHO, the only way to validly conduct this test is to a) not be working with dithered/resampled test tracks; and b) have test tracks that are, in fact bit-perfect identical to one another.  This means that not only would the md5 need to pass on each track when going between the 722 and the destination device, but that each track would need to have the exact same md5 signature (this means that each track is bit-identical to the other).  This is what Brian was able to accomplish in his testing example above (i.e. the source>spdif>destination sample was bit-identical to the source>firewire>destination sample). 

If you think about it, each sample that's recorded is nothing more than a series of numbers.  If either the spdif or firewire transfer is changing the way the numbers are recorded on the destination device (computer) then you're not achieving a bit-perfect transfer and the device that's changing the zeros and ones is the cause of the different sound you're hearing.  It's my belief that one bit-perfect transfer should ultimately sound exactly the same no matter what the means of transmission or recording (i.e. bit-accurate transmission of the digital data via morse code or smoke signals should sound no different than bit-accurate transmission via firewire, spdif, ethernet, usb, etc.). 

I can fathom how the use of clean ac power, better/less jittery cables, etc. can make a difference in the way an analog signal sounds or in the effectiveness of an asynchronous digital transfer, but simply can't see how otherwise bit-identical transfers can sound different throught the use of different transfer means.

[hyperplane]

I'm not intending this as an attack toward anyone, I merely have a question.

This is related to what Scott Brown said earlier in this thread:

Chris, when you did the real-time S/PDIF transfer, and recorded the WAV file to your hard disk, was it recorded as a 32-bit (float) WAV file?


I don't know if this would make much difference (24-bit via firewire vs. 32-bit float via S/PDIF)... but what I'm trying to get at is this: if you recorded the file as a 32-bit (float) WAV file (if this is even possible) via S/PDIF transfer, then would there be a difference between doing that vs. taking a 24-bit file and 'upsampling' it to 32-bit (float) file???

Again, I don't know, so I'm posing the question about how the S/PDIF file was recorded onto hard disk (to Chris), and posing the 24-bit upsampled to 32-bit question to anyone with insights/input.

[Shawn]

You can't discount the improved sound just because the controls weren't tight enough to narrow it down to only one variable.  Brian verified there are differences in the waveforms so you can't say it's psycho-acoustic nonsense.  By everyone's definition, we should not have been able to  improve on a firewire transfer.  I believe these files disprove that assumption.

scientifically speaking the test is invalid. You say that it sounds better because of the transfer method, but in reality the difference in the wave forms could be because of any combination of the variables in the test. You seem uninterested in doing a very simple test with only one variable that could prove which method is superior.

I didn't say that you couldn't improve on a firewire transfer. For all I care your transfer process could involve running the files through a DAC and a bunch of outboard analog gear into a ADC and back into another hard drive recorder. That may improve the sound, but that's not my point. My point is that a firewire transfer is going to be an exact copy of the files from the 722, which you seem to disagree with. You seem to think that an anti vibration pad placed underneath a computer during the firewire transfer makes the end product sound better, which is absolute nonsense.

edit for speling.

[scb]

Of course, the downloaded files may not be as pristine as audio cds off of the master files.  But who would buy into that theory.

Chris

well explain to me, how is copyng a file between 2 hard drives over firewire different from copying a file between 2 hard drives over tcp?  you say 1 absolutely affects the sound, but the other won't?  the processes are the same