Topic: Where does sound "come out" of an upright piano

[run_run_run]

The top lid thing?

Split omins up there?

[setboy]

I have seen people mic it from low on the back side of it. don't know if thats the "right" way of doing it.

[Mike R.]

some ideas here:

http://www.wikirecording.org/Guide_to_Recording_Pianos

[digifish_music]

I have seen people mic it from low on the back side of it. don't know if thats the "right" way of doing it.

They are usually against walls. So I vote on not moving the piano

I have recorded quite a few uprights in peoples houses (against walls), and it's a real pain to get a good sound out of them in this situation...however spaced omnis would be my choice. But not facing into the lid, you get way too much mechanical noise (of which there is a lot in an upright).

Actually what I prefer to do now after some experimenting (starting point at least) is to place a pair of spaced omnis about 6-12 feet back from and 1/3, 2/3 piano width either side of the performer (about standing head height) and put an NT4 directly over the performers head facing the open lid (with a little clearance so they don't whack themselves), and then find the most pleasing blend of these two mics...the NT4 picks up some nice attack with a very natural sound (from the players perspective) and the omnis give a nice sense of space/stereo spread. I'll also put a touch of reverb on that in post to try to make the room sound a little bigger.

...did I say I hate recording pianos in domestic environments

digifish

[run_run_run]

It is not against the wall! in a good way

[boojum]

GS has pursued this.  Consensus on uprights was get the sound from the back.  Get it away from the wall.  YMMV

[H₂O]

Sound comes from the back (the back exposed area on the back is called the soundboard)

[Gutbucket]

..Consensus on uprights was get the sound from the back.  Get it away from the wall.  YMMV

Sound comes from the back (the back exposed area on the back is called the soundboard)

The back of an upright = the bottom of a 'regular' piano. 
Agreed on moving it away from the wall and on most domestic sized rooms sucking. If perchance the domestic room is way out in the woods where it's quiet enough, open all the windows and doors.  That worked for me once to 'improve' a mediocre room.

[digifish_music]

The back of an upright = the bottom of a 'regular' piano. 
Agreed on moving it away from the wall and on most domestic sized rooms sucking. If perchance the domestic room is way out in the woods where it's quiet enough, open all the windows and doors.  That worked for me once to 'improve' a mediocre room.

About the soundboard, you know manufacturers don't help themselves by making the soundboards quite ugly and looking like unfinished stud-walls,



....so the typical response from customer is to hide that ugly side by butting it up against a wall

digifish

[Gutbucket]

Good point. Come to think of it I don't think I've ever seen a finished back on an upright.  I wonder why.  Some nice wooden louvers or something would work well.

I never recorded it, but I was frequently around an old upright tack piano years ago.  The mechanical noise out the raised top just added an additional quality to to the bright 'tack' sound when the pedal was engaged.  It was almost like walking through the saloon doors with dust on your spurs.

[mblindsey]

I went to a recording workshop, where we tried a lot of techniques.  I personally liked the sound that came out of the top best, but it's a matter of taste...

--Michael

[Krispy D]

depends on the upright.  The sound board is the back so positioning mics low along the back sound nice in a large room.  The top does introduce mechanism noise but if it is an upright grand you can get a great sound there and be far enough away from the hammers.  If it is against the wall in a smaller room I would mic the room and not the instrument.  walk around while the artist is playing and find the sweet spot.  It will be defined by the room so there is no cut and dry answer to where it will be.  could be 5 feet back at head height.  Could be off to the side at the other end of the room.  You never know.  Too many variables.

[digifish_music]

I went to a recording workshop, where we tried a lot of techniques.  I personally liked the sound that came out of the top best, but it's a matter of taste...

--Michael

Thanks for the pics. You certainly get a nice sharp attack hovering over an open lid, but I am surprised you didn't get too much mechanical noise?

digifish

[boojum]

In the discussion I have seen elsewhere on the upright, the problem of mechanism sound is the downside of recording out of the top.  Maybe two on the top and two on the back, at the sweet spot back there?

[mblindsey]

I went to a recording workshop, where we tried a lot of techniques.  I personally liked the sound that came out of the top best, but it's a matter of taste...

--Michael

Thanks for the pics. You certainly get a nice sharp attack hovering over an open lid, but I am surprised you didn't get too much mechanical noise?

digifish

It's been a over a year since I took that workshop, but I don't remember the mechanical noise being a big problem.  Then again, we experimented with a crap ton of mics and positions and it is feasible that I could have missed it (newbie).  I remember the open lid being more "clean/crisp", while the outside was "warmer"...as a you would probably expect.  I suspect the player/style has something to do with the result, too.  The song we recorded was something classical, soft, and smooth.  I bet a ragtime song might have a bit more mechanical noise....

I do remember getting great results with those Coles Ribbon Mics in the pics on a lot of instruments on that studio.  I can't seem to afford them...

--Michael

[BayTaynt3d]

The sound on these puppies comes out from everywhere, lol...

You've got a lot of choices, but I'd classify them into four groups: (1) out the top, (2) from the back, (3) under the front, and (4) more ambient from farther back.

As discussed already, a lot of this is personal preference, and another big part is how the thing is positioned (against wall or not, etc.). Also, if you are dealing with other instruments at the same time, bleed from them on the piano mics will play a role. Another thing to consider is the piano itself -- for example, if the piano is bright, you might not want to go out the top. Personally, I often go with split omnis near the top and I haven't had too much trouble with mechanical noise. A dynamic under the front can be good for bleed issues (if not inside with the lid down), except possibly clugy foot pedals can cause mech noise. Moving back and going more ambient can work, but I've found that doesn't work nearly as well as it does with a grand.

Bottom line, is there is no real right/wrong way with an upright. I t depends a lot on preference, the piano itself, the config in the room, bleed issues, what kind of mics you have, etc. If you can, experiment. If not, go with your gut. That's my two cents at least.

[run_run_run]

The university had one in a lounge area outside a dinning area and got pissed people where playing it. They put a sign on it last week, for display only and then took the Piano away. WTF

[carpa]

For what is my experience (I'm a pianist, but very very little acknowledge in taping) the big differences between upright and grands must be taken into account in order to choose a good miking. Let me explain some points (probably many of you already know).

I think that positioning the instrument far from the wall doesn't solve all problems, as miking the instrument directly on the rear (towards the soundboard) could be a little like miking a grand from below (not the same, of course).
Problems-differences in uprights may be indicated as:

1) a low tone in an upright has exactly the same pitch as a concert grand, but a much shorter and larger string. The result is a much muddier tone, less deep and with less harmonics; this is mainly responsible for a less detailed sound in the whole range.

2) In a grand the strings, going forward from the point in which they are screwed on the somière, pass individually through a hole inside a brass  piece called agraffe (in italian/french), while in an upright there is une metal bar for all the strings called compressor which keeps them tight;  the result is a less precise sound depending on "unwanted" vibrations.

3) a lot of time the mechanic of an upright is noisier than a grand and less precise in touch response, so it's difficult to play with the same control of a grand; this seems not having a lot to deal with recording, but in real world an upright performance tends to be less accurate.

4) the left pedal only brings the hammers closer to the strings (more difficult to control the action, also) and doesn't move the whole mechanic in order to strike strins from a different position; the sound is only a little bit softer, but doesn't affect the timbre, like in a grand.

Many of you are experts, so you don't need my advice, but I would say that for all these reasons a wise balance between close miking (mechanical noises, unpredictable lack of precision by the performer, poor harmonics) and too far (everything confused and lack of bass)shoud be found.
Just according to my istinct I would suggest not to move the piano too much from the wall (maybe 50-60 cm), open the upper lid and take off the front cover beside the key cover(in a way in which the pianist sees the hammers); I would not take off the other cover below the keyboard (in front of the pianists legs) and probably I would place mics higher than the piano a couple of meters far.
It's just an idea from a newbie. If someone tries let me know, and don't send me to hell
c

[rowjimmy]

That's good information, carpa, thanks.

Same for the rest of you guys, I've pondered recording the piano in my home and you've given me much to think about.

Oh, and those Coles ribbons.... are those running in blumlein?
Nice.

[Frequincy]

Just wanted to say this is a great thread and I've enjoyed reading it. Thanks for the insights.

[Gutbucket]

So I go visit an exhibition of sonic sculpture works yesterday and one of the pieces was an upright piano that in the performance of a previous piece had all of it's keys nailed down.  There was a video with headphones of it out on the street the year before with the curator in a tux asking passers-by to take turns nailing.  Hilarious when an old woman is doing as instructed but is just lightly taping the nail along with the resulting timid 'plink', 'plink'.. he finally shows her how, driving the nail in with a few strong blows and she cries out, "No!, No!, What are you Doing!?"

The current piece features the same piano with fully nailed keys, now with the addition of a bulls-eye painted on the back, a contact mic on the stings with near-by amplifier and a museum employee offering darts. A solid throw to the soundboard echoes though the typically highly reverberant museum like a John Cage riff.