Topic: Acoustic Recording Techniques

[voltronic]

This thread is for discussion of configurations, techniques, and theory specific to recording acoustic music.

Discussion of all genres of music are welcome, so long as they are limited to instruments or voices performing without PA reinforcement. Instruments that are part of an ensemble and are played through an amplifier as part of the instrument itself (ex. electrified strings and synths) can certainly be part of this discussion, so long as the recording aspect is generally recording an acoustic ensemble rather than recording a PA system.

[voltronic]

Jürgen Meyer - Acoustics and the Performance of Music (PDF book)

Michael Williams Website - Developer of Stereophonic Zoom and surround techniques

Visualization of all stereo microphone systems with two microphones - interactive SRA tool

Hauptmikrofon - Website of Helmut Wittek of Schoeps including IMA visualizer and many other useful things

Correlation analysis of various microphone arrays

How to determine Critical Distance

Comparison of different microphone positions for orchestra instruments

Mid-Side Recording Basics

The Gerzon Array

Stereo Masterclass - Interview with Tony Faulkner

The Use of B&K Omnidirectional Microphones for Modern Recording - old document with very interesting techniques

The Research On Classical Music Recording - AMAZING interactive site. Just go there now. Some comparison examples use over $100,000 worth of mics!

Microphone Arrangement in Grand Piano Recording - Similar to above, but incredibly in-depth and piano specific. The most epic recording session ever.

SOS: Piano Recording - much smaller-scale than the above, but still excellent

[voltronic]

Here are printed resources:

Classical Recording: A Practical Guide in the Decca Tradition - This is the most amazing book on solo or ensemble acoustic recording out there. Buy it!

[voltronic]

- reserved for resource links -

[aaronji]

Great idea!

Discussion of all genres of music are welcome, so long as they are limited to instruments or voices performing without PA reinforcement.

Just to clarify, does this allow for performances where an instrumentalist plays through an on-stage amp (a jazz electric guitar player, for example), but without an actual PA system?

[voltronic]

Great idea!

Discussion of all genres of music are welcome, so long as they are limited to instruments or voices performing without PA reinforcement.

Just to clarify, does this allow for performances where an instrumentalist plays through an on-stage amp (a jazz electric guitar player, for example), but without an actual PA system?

Yes, that qualifies. I will update the OP accordingly. I just wanted to carve out a place here where we could exclusively discuss recording non-PA concerts.

[opsopcopolis]

Been a long time since I did any recording of this style, and I think we've discussed it before, but a decca tree (or even pair of omnis at the conductor) in a nice big room... :chefskiss:

My personal favorite recording in that style that I've ever made was a youth orchestra at Strathmore in Bethesda, MD. Pair of Telefunken M60s with the TK61 caps either side of the conductor, and then a pair of LDCs in cardioid essentially in the wings pointing in. The main body of the recording was the omnis, but the cards helped to provide some really nice space to the whole thing. I think I've got it on dropbox somewhere, might could dig up a sample...

But in general, in a nice lively room with reasonable performance volume omnis are really beautiful

[Ronmac]

This thread is for discussion of configurations, techniques, and theory specific to recording acoustic music.

 Thanks Voltronic. The links you have provided are an excellent reference! I am not an "arena live show taper". My focus is on live acoustic music recording and my self-funded doc and sound design work.

Looking forward to participating more here.

[voltronic]

Here are a few samples of my choir's dress rehearsal last night to demonstrate the Gerzon array. 4011A's into my F6, with shuffling EQ (see Gerzon article above) and some very slight RX Spectral Denoise in post.

The choir is about 90 singers. Sopranos left, Basses right, Altos center, Tenors behind Altos. Chamber choir is 24 singers.

Lux Arumque
Lo, How a Rose E'er Blooming (chamber choir)
Happy Holiday
Have Yourself a Merry Little Christmas (with alternate ending take)



I also recorded an omni pair, but there was a problem there that I would rather discuss in the F6 thread.

[morst]

OK, I'm in on this thread.

I recorded a duo with no PA once.
There was a guitar amplifier involved, but no vocal reinforcement via mics or PA- just people singing into mostly the air, but also my mics.

https://archive.org/details/VictorKrummenacher2018-12-13/

I've recorded singalongs with voices and acoustic guitars, but not to any great results, due to my ersatz stereo pair placement, and the general event style....

[checht]

Thought I'd post a recording made a few years back, Baroque cello and piano pieces. Cellos are period instruments.

Link to dropbox folder with aiffs:
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/jpt6jv6o8dlvkut716zeb/h?rlkey=pxig8ogydc0uly18tg3vncqu0&dl=0

Textfile attached.

I'm still waiting on artist ok to post recent Schubert sonatas recording...

[goodcooker]

Been contacted again about recording a choir that has minimal instrumental accompaniment - an acoustic guitar on a song or two, some hand held doo dads like sleigh bells for a Christmas song not sure they are being kinda vague. Small ensemble of a dozen. A lot of them are in higher education and have access to spaces in the music department so I've been pushing them to find a larger more lively sounding space than a treated rehearsal room.

They are accustomed to their physical arrangement (five in front seven on a riser behind straight line no curve) but I'm curious about what y'all think about where the instruments should be located? I'll put a spot mic on the guitar so it can be panned in the mix later but with the split omnis and wide ORTF subcards I plan to use as the main pairs to choose from later - in addition to two LDC cardioid vocal spots - there's going to be location cues in the main mix already especially if it's all the way to one side. I'm guessing I can just mix the spot mic for instruments and find where the panning works best but curious how any of you have approached this. Also guessing that whoever is jangling the bells and whatnot will just be doing that from their set location in the ensemble so I don't have much to do on those tunes except hope for the best. The guitar is a whole different thing though.

[voltronic]

Been contacted again about recording a choir that has minimal instrumental accompaniment - an acoustic guitar on a song or two, some hand held doo dads like sleigh bells for a Christmas song not sure they are being kinda vague. Small ensemble of a dozen. A lot of them are in higher education and have access to spaces in the music department so I've been pushing them to find a larger more lively sounding space than a treated rehearsal room.

They are accustomed to their physical arrangement (five in front seven on a riser behind straight line no curve) but I'm curious about what y'all think about where the instruments should be located? I'll put a spot mic on the guitar so it can be panned in the mix later but with the split omnis and wide ORTF subcards I plan to use as the main pairs to choose from later - in addition to two LDC cardioid vocal spots - there's going to be location cues in the main mix already especially if it's all the way to one side. I'm guessing I can just mix the spot mic for instruments and find where the panning works best but curious how any of you have approached this. Also guessing that whoever is jangling the bells and whatnot will just be doing that from their set location in the ensemble so I don't have much to do on those tunes except hope for the best. The guitar is a whole different thing though.

Sounds like you have a good plan already. Definitely push them to perform in the best hall available; a dead rehearsal room will sound like what it is.

A lot depends on the rep they are performing. If you get a good hall, you may not need any spot mics at all and your CM3s might cover everything. Or, your omni's alone. 50 cm is usually my starting point depending on the SRA. You might even try the Tony Faulkner 47/67 phased array of subcards and omnis here, but again a lot depends on the room and the repertoire.

I've done choir with acoustic guitar (in a beautiful sounding church) and didn't need a spot for the guitar. I would also be surprised if you need choir spots for an ensemble this small, unless you wind up in the dead room.



I would locate the guitar in the center. Put aux percussion to either side, but not wider than the side boundaries of the choir. I find it really distracting in a recording when percussion is hard L or R with choir - it keeps pulling my focus off-center, making the whole recording seem off-center.

Any piano involved?

[goodcooker]

^ No piano. They mentioned that when discussing the choice of rooms since they don't need one.

I heard back from the person who reached out to me in the beginning. They definitely want a vocal spot for soloists to "step up to" - guess I'll use an ADK LD for that.

[voltronic]

I heard back from the person who reached out to me in the beginning. They definitely want a vocal spot for soloists to "step up to" - guess I'll use an ADK LD for that.

This kind of statement makes me think soloists are going to sing to the mic instead of to the hall, as they should. But if that's what makes them comfortable, put up your ADK.

Of course, if your main array captures the soloist well you might not actually use that solo spot at any significant level in the final mix. But don't tell them if they are happy with the sound...

What kind of music is being performed? I'm getting a very pop vibe here.

[fanofjam]

Nothing to add other than to say how much I love the simplicity of a bluegrass band playing/singing acoustically around a single omni mic, then leaning in when their lead comes around.  And how often does that recording sound as good as anything anyone can do with a much more elaborate rig.  'Bigger' doesn't always translate to better...guess it all depends on what you're after.

[HealthCov Chris]

Yep.  I love this style as well.  Sometimes a 2nd lower (instrument) mic comes in handy to make solos a bit easier for the musicians and cleaner for the recording.  I have wanted to setup something like this for years backstage at a local bluegrass festival.  Grab whoever I can get to play 2-3 songs together throughout the weekend.  Thinking single LG for vocals and a lower SD for instruments > into a Zoom F3, so all I need to do is hit Record and Stop.

[Gutbucket]

^ and ^^..
The on-stage setup Chatham Co Line uses for their center mic-stand (or at least used to) is a good one for up close taping of blue-grassy stuff with vocals.. you know, bands doing the typical "step up close for solos" and "all lean in for harmonies" thing.  That's a LD mic up at face height with a ORTF-ish near-spaced pair at instrument height a foot or so lower.  Very doable with taper gear. [Edit- to be clear, CCL uses this setup on stage feeding a PA for reinforcement, however the reason I mention it here is that it works great for recording non-PA reinforced bands playing to just themselves, a handful of people, or whatever in a non-PA reinforced situation using a single mic stand.  Easy to setup backstage or at camp or whatever.  Best to push the LD vocal mic something like a foot or so forward of the near-spaced pair for easier access to it, gets it closer to the center of a half-circle of singers]

[Gutbucket]

Been contacted again about recording a choir that has minimal instrumental accompaniment - an acoustic guitar on a song or two, some hand held doo dads like sleigh bells for a Christmas song not sure they are being kinda vague. Small ensemble of a dozen. A lot of them are in higher education and have access to spaces in the music department so I've been pushing them to find a larger more lively sounding space than a treated rehearsal room.

They are accustomed to their physical arrangement (five in front seven on a riser behind straight line no curve) but I'm curious about what y'all think about where the instruments should be located? I'll put a spot mic on the guitar so it can be panned in the mix later but with the split omnis and wide ORTF subcards I plan to use as the main pairs to choose from later - in addition to two LDC cardioid vocal spots - there's going to be location cues in the main mix already especially if it's all the way to one side. I'm guessing I can just mix the spot mic for instruments and find where the panning works best but curious how any of you have approached this. Also guessing that whoever is jangling the bells and whatnot will just be doing that from their set location in the ensemble so I don't have much to do on those tunes except hope for the best. The guitar is a whole different thing though.

Sounds like you have a good plan already. Definitely push them to perform in the best hall available; a dead rehearsal room will sound like what it is.

A lot depends on the rep they are performing. If you get a good hall, you may not need any spot mics at all and your CM3s might cover everything. Or, your omni's alone. 50 cm is usually my starting point depending on the SRA. You might even try the Tony Faulkner 47/67 phased array of subcards and omnis here, but again a lot depends on the room and the repertoire.

I've done choir with acoustic guitar (in a beautiful sounding church) and didn't need a spot for the guitar. I would also be surprised if you need choir spots for an ensemble this small, unless you wind up in the dead room.

I would locate the guitar in the center. Put aux percussion to either side, but not wider than the side boundaries of the choir. I find it really distracting in a recording when percussion is hard L or R with choir - it keeps pulling my focus off-center, making the whole recording seem off-center.

How'd this go?

Fully agreed with all points discussed.  Particularly about pushing for a good hall,  also on percussion or any other supporting instrument being way too far off to the side.  Although probably not necessary I'd spot mic the guitar if its not a hassle, as it can be easy for that instrument to get lost at not much of a distance, and its nice to have the option of reinforcing its subtle details and panning that wherever is best.

[voltronic]

Heads up - an amazing recording techniques book I purchased a couple years ago is on sale:

https://www.routledge.com/Classical-Recording-A-Practical-Guide-in-the-Decca-Tradition/Haigh-Dunkerley-Rogers/p/book/9780367312800

(also added to the Resource List in a post reserved for print resources)

[WiFiJeff]

Very good book.  When it came out I got it for $50 (paperback) at Amazon, it now seems to list for $55.  But Amazon is offering it for $41.63, which is even cheaper than this listing. 

[TSNéa]

Classical Recording A Practical Guide in the Decca Tradition
https://www.routledge.com/Classical-Recording-A-Practical-Guide-in-the-Decca-Tradition/Haigh-Dunkerley-Rogers/p/book/9780367312800
£31.99 + VAT £1.76 + free shipping to France (from UK).

C'est fait !
Thank you, Voltronic!

[voltronic]

Classical Recording A Practical Guide in the Decca Tradition
https://www.routledge.com/Classical-Recording-A-Practical-Guide-in-the-Decca-Tradition/Haigh-Dunkerley-Rogers/p/book/9780367312800
£31.99 + VAT £1.76 + free shipping to France (from UK).

C'est fait !
Thank you, Voltronic!

C'est un prix fantastique !

[voltronic]

Here are samples from a recent concert. I did an experiment with a mic arrangement used for a time by Onno Scholze at Phillips. DPA 4006A with only 32 cm capsule spacing, angled out 90 deg. On paper, this shouldn't work, but I think it came out pretty decently. I'm curious to hear comments on how you perceive the imaging. Not sure if I'll do this again or go back to my usual starting point of 42 to 52 cm spacing, straight ahead or with a slight opening angle.

The third track adds a pair of Line Audio OM1 in a similar arrangement but further back. That one involves over 600 student singers.

Before listening, go to Audio Options at the bottom and enable Lossless.
https://samply.app/p/4T0HHxD3xntJcLu3qYGn

[Gutbucket]

Looking forward to giving a listen tonight..

I did an experiment with a mic arrangement used for a time by Onno Scholze at Phillips. DPA 4006A with only 32 cm capsule spacing, angled out 90 deg. On paper, this shouldn't work,  [..snip]

Because on paper the spacing is overly narrow?  I suspect it will produce some binaural cues and have a solid center but not sound as open or wide as it would with increased spacing.  At that spacing a center baffle is likely to be helpful. The 90° inclusive angle should help provide a bit more stereo interest and openness up top.

I just modeled it in Image Assistant. SRA is somewhat strongly dependent on distance from the source.  If placed relatively close, ~2m away, total SRA is 119° (75% SRA = 71°). If relatively far ~10m away, total SRA is 143° (75% SRA =  79°).  A difference in SRA of 24°.  Perhaps of greater importance than image distribution, DFC (Diffuse field correlation, lower is better) remains high (>0.9) up to around 100hz, then drops off between there and 500Hz where it reaches zero, remaining fully decorrelated above that point.

Not sure if I'll do this again or go back to my usual starting point of 42 to 52 cm spacing, straight ahead or with a slight opening angle.

Modeled that too for comparison- At 42cm, SRA is less strongly dependent on distance from the source than at 32cm.  If placed relatively close, ~2m away, total SRA is 86° (75% SRA = 54°).  If relatively far ~10m away, total SRA is 93° (75% SRA =  58°).  A difference of 7°.  DFC improves slightly, remaining highly correlated (>0.9) up to around 70hz, then drops off between there and 400Hz where it reaches zero and remains fully decorrelated above.

And at 52cm with the array ~2m from the source, total SRA is 67° (75% SRA = 44°). 10m away, total SRA is 72° (75% SRA =  46°).  A difference of just 5°.  DFC is improved somewhat further, remaining high (>0.9) up to around 60hz, dropping off between there and 200Hz where it reaches zero, remaining fully decorrelated above.

I don't think any of those configs are wide enough to have any problem with hole in the middle.  Preference for one over the other is likely to come down to 3 things: Image distribution (SRA), the portrayal of reverberance (DFC), and possibly, the alteration of frequency response ripple in the upper bass from the constructive/destructive interaction of wavelength as it relates to the spacing between microphones.

The DFC corner frequencies are somewhat high for all of them IMO, but that can only be improved further by increased spacing.  I suspect I would likely prefer your wider 52 cm spacing because of the difference in reverberant portrayal, unless weaker voices in the center of the ensemble needed help from the wider SRA, image-distribution-wise.

[TSNéa]

Classical Recording A Practical Guide in the Decca Tradition
https://www.routledge.com/Classical-Recording-A-Practical-Guide-in-the-Decca-Tradition/Haigh-Dunkerley-Rogers/p/book/9780367312800
£31.99 + VAT £1.76 + free shipping to France (from UK).

C'est fait !
Thank you, Voltronic!

C'est un prix fantastique !

En effet : je n'ai pas hésité une seule seconde !
It arrived a few days after my order, a well-packed new item.
Now I just need a classical orchestra to practice...   

[Gutbucket]

Here are samples from a recent concert. I did an experiment with a mic arrangement used for a time by Onno Scholze at Phillips. DPA 4006A with only 32 cm capsule spacing, angled out 90 deg. [snip..]

Looking forward to giving a listen tonight..

Wasn't able to do that and listen in full, but was able to give a brief listen to the three files yesterday morning, and quite like the portrayal of the chorus (listening on headphones).  Nice even distribution with a good solid center.  Also liked the image positioning of the musical accompaniment - over to the sides, yet not excessively hard panned, and didn't feel the increased diffuse field correlation at low frequencies is problematic, at least in my somewhat brief listen over headphones.

Very much like the sound with the inclusion of the OM1's, which to my ear adds a bit of depth and dimension that is attractive (which may be due to increased reverberant decorrelation).  Strong 600 student chorus!

Thanks for the listen!

[voltronic]

Here are samples from a recent concert. I did an experiment with a mic arrangement used for a time by Onno Scholze at Phillips. DPA 4006A with only 32 cm capsule spacing, angled out 90 deg. [snip..]

Looking forward to giving a listen tonight..

Wasn't able to do that and listen in full, but was able to give a brief listen to the three files yesterday morning, and quite like the portrayal of the chorus (listening on headphones).  Nice even distribution with a good solid center.  Also liked the image positioning of the musical accompaniment - over to the sides, yet not excessively hard panned, and didn't feel the increased diffuse field correlation at low frequencies is problematic, at least in my somewhat brief listen over headphones.

Very much like the sound with the inclusion of the OM1's, which to my ear adds a bit of depth and dimension that is attractive (which may be due to increased reverberant decorrelation).  Strong 600 student chorus!

Thanks for the listen!

Thanks for the feedback. I keep listening and sometimes the spread sounds natural to me; other times I think the image is a bit bunched towards the center. Still not sure if I want to do this again, but it worked better than I expected.

[goodcooker]

I reached out to a local graduate student composer who is presenting one of his orchestral pieces at the local convention center/performing arts center https://www.century2.com/plan-your-event/event-spaces/concert-hall and he looked into his contract. No recording except through the house contractor unless you pay a $1000 fee. Oddly it's not union just a "our people get first dibs" type situation. Not unusual.

He emailed me tonight and said he would like to record the dress rehearsal the night before the performance. It will be at the concert hall at the local university which will be fair game. I'm kinda excited because I'll be able to have freedom from worrying about audience sightlines.

60 performers many from the conservatory but also students and a few professionals.

[Gutbucket]

^ Right on! Very exciting recording a full orchestra in a good hall! Have you heard other orchestral performances in that university hall?  How is the room? 

I've very much enjoyed a number of new composition works performed at a couple local universities and a post-graduate organization here over the years.  I consulted with one graduate composer focused on oceanic themes who was using underwater samples as an additional element in conjunction with the orchestral performance about practical ways of extending the underwater recording techniques used for gathering them from mono to stereo and multichannel, as their hall was capable of supporting that.  I think it would have been fitting and the idea was attractive to him as one of his key motifs was oceanic flow, movement and immersion.  The primary idea behind it was to use spaced arrays of hydrophones (all of which are natively omnidirectional) with the spacing scaled up such that the time-of-arrival cues though saltwater equated to those of typical stereo/multichannel microphones arrays in air.  Underwater acoustic recording techniques!  We also talked about using scaled up sphere attachments, filled with water to achieve neutral buoyancy, but those would need to be about the size of basketballs.  Increasing the spacing was much simpler.

Unfortunately he graduated and moved on before we got a chance to try those ideas.  That hall has a nice but rarely used pipe organ, which I secretively hoped he'd employ to convey deep abyss-ness.

[Gutbucket]

Thanks for the feedback. I keep listening and sometimes the spread sounds natural to me; other times I think the image is a bit bunched towards the center. Still not sure if I want to do this again, but it worked better than I expected.

I think of myself as someone who's preference leans toward a wide, open portrayal.. as long as the center is sufficiently solid to support it, and doesn't stick out or otherwise sound "disembodied".  I'll try to give a listen with speakers rather than headphones.

[goodcooker]

The composer of the symphonic piece I'd planned to record the dress rehearsal of got back to me finally and the date is while I'll be in NOLA for Jazzfest (the same day I'm recording and live streaming for the Bayou Rendezvous) so that gig isn't going to happen. I thought I'd copy the details he gave me for the sake of discussion. Recording something this size and type is a new thing for me and I'd be interested in how others would approach it.

From the composer - "My performers are going to be set up as an orchestra, I can send you a layout of how the setup is and if we will need any changes for the day if you would like! I will be about the width of 57' and a length of about 25' back give or take. These are very very rough estimates but are close to what it will be. The arrangement will be strings downstage center to the podium, center stage is the woodwinds, then brass directly behind them, and then percussion with timpani up center stage. Piano and Harp will be on stage right behind the violin 1s.

Percussion is a large part of this concert and has some louder moments in the second half of the Symphony and within Stellarium.

To make things easier, I am okay with a single mic for each section (Violins, Viola, Cello/Bass, High Woodwinds, Low woodwinds, High Brass, Low Brass, Piano/Harp/Mallet Percussion, Untuned Percussion, Choral) or how ever you see fit!"

What would you do? Pairs of OM1 omnis, CM3 wide cards, MBHO hypers, ADK LD cards and a AKG C522 cardioid XY stereo mic available to use plus various dynamics. This was to be a dress rehearsal recording so anything goes as far as placement no worry of obstructing sightlines for the audience. Max inputs = 10. I have a Focusrite 18i20 with 8 inputs plus SPDIF that can be run simultaneously to my laptop in Reaper. Neve Portico 5012, W+ and T mod UA5 and Apogee Mini MP available for pres (8 channels total). Since I have to use 2 channels of the Focusrite pres (which are fine but flat and lifeless honestly) I'm not sure where they'd be in use.

[voltronic]

The composer of the symphonic piece I'd planned to record the dress rehearsal of got back to me finally and the date is while I'll be in NOLA for Jazzfest (the same day I'm recording and live streaming for the Bayou Rendezvous) so that gig isn't going to happen. I thought I'd copy the details he gave me for the sake of discussion. Recording something this size and type is a new thing for me and I'd be interested in how others would approach it.

From the composer - "My performers are going to be set up as an orchestra, I can send you a layout of how the setup is and if we will need any changes for the day if you would like! I will be about the width of 57' and a length of about 25' back give or take. These are very very rough estimates but are close to what it will be. The arrangement will be strings downstage center to the podium, center stage is the woodwinds, then brass directly behind them, and then percussion with timpani up center stage. Piano and Harp will be on stage right behind the violin 1s.

Percussion is a large part of this concert and has some louder moments in the second half of the Symphony and within Stellarium.

To make things easier, I am okay with a single mic for each section (Violins, Viola, Cello/Bass, High Woodwinds, Low woodwinds, High Brass, Low Brass, Piano/Harp/Mallet Percussion, Untuned Percussion, Choral) or how ever you see fit!"

What would you do? Pairs of OM1 omnis, CM3 wide cards, MBHO hypers, ADK LD cards and a AKG C522 cardioid XY stereo mic available to use plus various dynamics. This was to be a dress rehearsal recording so anything goes as far as placement no worry of obstructing sightlines for the audience. Max inputs = 10. I have a Focusrite 18i20 with 8 inputs plus SPDIF that can be run simultaneously to my laptop in Reaper. Neve Portico 5012, W+ and T mod UA5 and Apogee Mini MP available for pres (8 channels total). Since I have to use 2 channels of the Focusrite pres (which are fine but flat and lifeless honestly) I'm not sure where they'd be in use.

I'll respond as if you are actually recording this, even though it seems it's no longer possible.

Focus your efforts on main pickup first. That should be getting you 90%+ of your final mix.

There are a few options that could work, depending on the acoustics of the space and the nature of the music being recorded:

1. OM1 main pair, directly behind and above conductor, 12-15 ft high. I usually start with a lateral spacing of 40 to 50 cm depending on the SRA I need to cover. APE spheres can be helpful in getting more reach, but be careful of introducing too much brightness. Vertical angle also has a big impact in this respect. In this situation I would angle slightly down aimed at the percussion section.

2. Faulkner 47/67 array of central CM3 with flanking OM1, width of inner and outer pairs as those numbers specify (in cm) and each pair with 90° opening angle. The two pairs are not usually at equal level in the final mix, but having them both their gives you a good amount of reach to the back of the ensemble. Same position as 1.

3. CM3 in NOS (or same 30 cm width width 110° opening angle) in same position as 1. OM1 as wide flanks, same height and distance from front of stage, spaced 1/2 to 2/3 the distance from center to outer boundary width of orchestra on either side.

//

For spot mics, I wouldn't consider the dynamics at all. Their lower sensitivity and reduced treble response will run contrary to adding fine detail even when low in the mix, which is what the spots are for.

Your MBHO hypers are closest to what the pros would probably reach for as spot mics (Schoeps MK 41 is a popular choice) but your ADK's could work nice as well. I have seen LDCs used as string and woodwind spots above the section and aimed almost straight down. Those could also work well as bass drum and tympani spots.

It's kind of hard to advise on the spot mics without having a close knowledge of the music and what the space sounds like. Like I said earlier, your main pickup should get you most of the way there unless you're in a problematic space or the composer/producer/whoever has unusual requirements for the recording.

[Gutbucket]

So much depends on the acoustics of the hall in which the performance will happen.  A great room makes it much easier to keep things simple.

I'd suggest keeping approaching it like you would an on-stage tape, just a lot bigger! Probably just a main and flanking pair.  Dealing with spot mics is going to be a pain and a hassle.  A good orchestra in a good room is self mixing.  Something like Volt's 3rd suggestion would be a good safe bet.

3. CM3 in NOS (or same 30 cm width width 110° opening angle) in same position as 1. OM1 as wide flanks, same height and distance from front of stage, spaced 1/2 to 2/3 the distance from center to outer boundary width of orchestra on either side.

If there is a choral ensemble, maybe mic that as well, but if arranged immediately behind the orchestra its probably not necessary.

If there is a soloist, use a directional spot on that.

Keep it relatively simple and manageable.

[checht]

Schubert B-flat Major Piano Sonata #21. D960-Plaza Performance Space-Berkeley, CA-December 5, 2023
Performer: Eric Zivian
Instrument: 1820s pianoforte

Recording notes:
1 pair of km41s ORTF, 10"" behind the hammers and 12" above.
Also a pair of MK22s A/B 12" split, aligned with the knee and about 20" out. Height was 4" above the opened lid, both pointed about 65º down and at the soundboard/strings.
A couple pics below illustrating.

It was amazing to stand close and at the knee during rehearsal, eyes closed, listening to the incredible image and sound stage. So different w/out the cross strings of a piano. Really informed my subsequent mixing.

Dropbox folder with aiffs:
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/b64gh1rm394y1ajjzr0dt/h?rlkey=am1vkbr46pv4h80pfw4is8ri0&dl=0

[goodcooker]

Since I posted this he got back to me and suggested that we record his final rehearsal before the dress rehearsal last week of April before I go out of town. So it's back on.

I very much like the approaches that both you guys suggest - relying on the main pair above and behind the conductors head. I'd go with the Faulkner 47/67 plan and hope that it does the job even with the orchestra at 57' wide. Having two pairs to choose from or mix together is what appeals to me the most. Having the other mics set up and recording can't hurt. If the soup needs a little spice it's available and automation in mixing has gotten super easy. Want the strings or percussion to swell? Move the fader.

I'd likely go with 8 total locating two spot mics somewhere in the strings/woodwinds and the other two near percussion since he says that percussion is a large part of the piece. I guess we'll see after he sends me the stage plot and I find out which hall he's rehearsing in.

Kinda glad now that I bought those ethercon snakes when I did and that I ended up with two of them instead of one.

[voltronic]

Schubert B-flat Major Piano Sonata #21. D960-Plaza Performance Space-Berkeley, CA-December 5, 2023
Performer: Eric Zivian
Instrument: 1820s pianoforte

Recording notes:
1 pair of km41s ORTF, 10"" behind the hammers and 12" above.
Also a pair of MK22s A/B 12" split, aligned with the knee and about 20" out. Height was 4" above the opened lid, both pointed about 65º down and at the soundboard/strings.
A couple pics below illustrating.

It was amazing to stand close and at the knee during rehearsal, eyes closed, listening to the incredible image and sound stage. So different w/out the cross strings of a piano. Really informed my subsequent mixing.

Dropbox folder with aiffs:
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/b64gh1rm394y1ajjzr0dt/h?rlkey=am1vkbr46pv4h80pfw4is8ri0&dl=0

Thanks for posting this again. I'm listening closely.

I usually don't like close-miked perspective for classical piano, but this is something totally different. I think what you've done in capturing this fortepiano is really excellent. Without being there in person I can't fully judge, but to my ears it sounds like I am there, listening to this instrument in this room. Bravo!

Did you time-align your two pairs? The reason I ask is I'm not sure if I'm hearing some slight phasiness / comb filtering, or if that's the characteristic inharmonicity of this instrument. Are you able to share a couple samples of just the MK22 pair alone?

[checht]

Great questions! I did time align the 2 pairs; wasn't a lot of difference but enough to make the edit.

I'll post mk22 track later tonight. The instrument was close to a wall to accommodate the audience. We will play with positioning during rehearsal next time.

Glad I didn't blow it. I worked with what I had with me at the end of a rock tour and benefitted from research  and good fortune.

[Gutbucket]

It was amazing to stand close and at the knee during rehearsal, eyes closed, listening to the incredible image and sound stage. So different w/out the cross strings of a piano. Really informed my subsequent mixing.

That's interesting to read as I've wondered about it myself but have never had the chance to really listen like that. 

[Organfreak]

So much depends on the acoustics of the hall in which the performance will happen.  A great room makes it much easier to keep things simple.

I'd suggest keeping approaching it like you would an on-stage tape, just a lot bigger! Probably just a main and flanking pair.  Dealing with spot mics is going to be a pain and a hassle.  A good orchestra in a good room is self mixing.  Something like Volt's 3rd suggestion would be a good safe bet.

3. CM3 in NOS (or same 30 cm width width 110° opening angle) in same position as 1. OM1 as wide flanks, same height and distance from front of stage, spaced 1/2 to 2/3 the distance from center to outer boundary width of orchestra on either side.

If there is a choral ensemble, maybe mic that as well, but if arranged immediately behind the orchestra its probably not necessary.

If there is a soloist, use a directional spot on that.

Keep it relatively simple and manageable.

This third suggestion is the same as works best for me for organ recordings. KM143 in NOS position; DPA 4090 as flanks (pointing left and right at the maximum possible practical distance of 150 cm).
It allows flexibility to move from one pair to the other with everything in beween.

[checht]

It was amazing to stand close and at the knee during rehearsal, eyes closed, listening to the incredible image and sound stage. So different w/out the cross strings of a piano. Really informed my subsequent mixing.

That's interesting to read as I've wondered about it myself but have never had the chance to really listen like that.

In initial playback, I noted that the high/low frequencies were reversed on the 2 stereo tracks. The 41s near the hammers had low freqs on the left, as you'd expect. The 22s were the reverse, with the short high freq strings sounding distinctly from the left, and longer low freqs coming from the right. Somewhat disbelievingly, I swapped the 22 channels, and the sound stage appeared. Still not certain about that choice, but sure sounded incoherent the other way...

[Gutbucket]

This third suggestion is the same as works best for me for organ recordings. KM143 in NOS position; DPA 4090 as flanks (pointing left and right at the maximum possible practical distance of 150 cm).
It allows flexibility to move from one pair to the other with everything in beween.

^ Thinking similarly.. More thoughts on why I gravitate to #3.. more specifically to the wide flaking omni pair aspect of it-

I very much like the approaches that both you guys suggest - relying on the main pair above and behind the conductors head. I'd go with the Faulkner 47/67 plan and hope that it does the job even with the orchestra at 57' wide. Having two pairs to choose from or mix together is what appeals to me the most. Having the other mics set up and recording can't hurt. If the soup needs a little spice it's available and automation in mixing has gotten super easy. Want the strings or percussion to swell? Move the fader.

Regardless of what you choose to use as the main pair or array in the center just behind the conductor, consider including a wide-spaced flanking pair farther out to either side of the main pair. Wide-spaced meaning like 10-12' or so out from the center to either side.  If going with the Faulkner array and using your OM1's in that, maybe use the ADKs in omni for the wide-flanking pair if they are the switchable TLs. 

Here's the reasoning- The addition of the wide-spaced flanking pair of omnis to whatever the center main pair happens to be will serve to hedge the bet in a couple ways. First, it's a relatively traditional setup for orchestra recording with a long history of working well and flexibly.  Secondly, the wide flanking arrangement will sort of serve in a way similar to spot mics in regard to covering/balancing the breadth of the orchestra, but in a way that is more of an extension of the main array rather than in the manner of individual, isolated spot mics. Its more likely make things more easily managed during recording and in the mix without the typical problems of spot mics, and will preserve more natural stereo and depth cues.

The Faulkner array is not a widely spaced on its own and is really more of a single semi-near-spaced array that uses four channels.  It can work very nicely but does not have that same "distributed across the front of the orchestra" aspect to it and is not so much a traditional recording method. Without having used it in this specific situation previously I'd be more comfortable combining it with the wide flanking omnis to increase the odds of everything being covered and working well.

I think it will not only be easier to manage an extended main array type setup than a less-wide main array plus spot mics, I also think its likely to sound better. One advantage of the main array + flanking pair is that the mics are positioned on essentially the same L/R plane, so it's already time-aligned, and it tends to preserve depth cues.  I really like hearing the depth cues of the woodwinds being somewhat farther upstage than the string sections and the percussion behind that.  Its what sounds real to me and is one of the things I listen for from the audience and in my own recordings.  Spot mics tend to flatten the depth cues, which tend to be the first thing to go.  It takes a lot of work to get the clarity from the spot but avoid that flattening effect.  Also, the wider-spacing of the flanking pair will produce a nice big decorrelated reverberant room sound- making a good hall sound big and dimensional. 

If the room isn't great, spot mics might be necessary.  You're then in a way reinforcing and recreating things artificially because the room isn't up to it.  But if the room is good it will be a lot easier and potentially sound better to rely on a well distributed and flexible main array across the front.  There are good reasons for complicating things, but especially as a first orchestral open-recording effort, I'd try an keep things simple without spots except for where they are really be needed.   

Any chance you might be able to attend a rehearsal before the recording date?  That way you can hear some of the work, determine if anything might really need a spot, listen to how the room sounds, and how the sections interact in terms of depth and clarity.

[goodcooker]

I'm recording a rehearsal instead of the debut performance due to contractual arrangements with the concert hall. Going in blind since this is a debut performance of the piece.

I agree that relying on the main array is the way to go. It's how I record most musical performances but the composer has said "I'm okay with a singe spot mic on each section" meaning his expectation is a dozen mics or more. I think the happy medium is 4 mics as main array and 4 spots.

The spots don't have to be mixed in all the time. A little automation can fix the hiccups of imaging when the spots are located 20 feet in front of the main array. Blend a little in when it's needed for immediacy during a passage then fade it back out.

Thanks for everyone's input here it's given me a lot to think about.

[voltronic]

Gutbucket - My experience with the Faulkner 47/67 array is that it does very well in preserving the 'depth cues' you cite, because it was designed as a phased array. Tony Faulkner's term is "forward gain" for how the four aligned mics work together for this effect.

You may have noticed I also suggested the very wide flanks as you did, and you're right that's a much more traditional arrangement. I wanted to also share that the great Onno Scholze would often do this with 4 omnis - a central pair very close (<40 cm) and the wide flanks as you describe. That's definitely non-traditional, as a near-coincident cardioid pair is the typical thing to use in the middle.

I agree with you about the spot mics potentially flattening the image, which is why I only recommend using them if really necessary, and as low a level as possible. Typically when I use spot mics, it's for a choir behind an orchestra as well be the case in a concert in doing in a few weeks.

[Gutbucket]

I don't doubt the Faulkner array does depth well, and it will l probably work fine for this.  I just don't really see it being specifically advantageous for this particular situation if doing so were to require giving up a wider-spaced flaking omni pair.  I sort of see the phased array thing as being a way of achieving some additional forward "reach" without using overly directional patterns (your noting that TF refer's to it producing "forward gain" rings true with my understanding of it).  However, with the freedom to place the main array directly behind and above the conductor, I don't suspect additional forward reach / forward gain is going to be necessary.  But again, a lot depends on the sound of the hall.

I think that Onno S arrangement of a relatively narrow spaced omni center pair placed just above and behind the conductor plus flanking wide omnis may be relatively common these days.  At least two different classical venues I frequent here use that as their main array most of the time.

Mostly I think using less directional mics with spacing across the front will make relying primarily on the main mics more forgiving and increase the chances of the main array providing everything needed.

I agree that relying on the main array is the way to go. It's how I record most musical performances but the composer has said "I'm okay with a singe spot mic on each section" meaning his expectation is a dozen mics or more. I think the happy medium is 4 mics as main array and 4 spots.

Yeah, a lot of that might be expectation based on how he's seen it done in the past.  In addition to the four omni main array I mentioned in us at those classical venues I frequent, a couple of them additionally spot mic almost everything.  Partly that's because they can and it gives them options, in once case because it provides a learning opportunity (a University), in another because is a very "wired" venue that records everything, streams/casts many events and uses the spots in combination with close up robotic camera shots to make relevant auditory zooms that complement the video closeups.

But sure go ahead and do some spot mic'ing too, as long as that doesn't require sacrificing attention to the main array in any way.  I just sort of feel it will be a rather futzy and unnecessary distraction, and you will have plenty else to pay attention to doing this for the first time.  Satisfying the expectations of the composer is of course advantageous for different reasons, even if it's not particularly helpful for the recording.  Part of the composer's job is arranging for the mix of sound as performed by the orchestra, and part of that is the physical arrangement of the instrument sections, which some composers switch around specifically with a specific sound balance in mind. Part of the conductor's job is working the live mix of the orchestra in practice and performance to achieve the composer's vision, and produce a properly balanced sound to the audience.  If those things are all working correctly in the hall, the main mics will do the job without the need for spots!

[checht]

I've uploaded flacs of just the mk41s (swapped channel) and mk22s to the same dropbox folder linked above.

[voltronic]

Here are a few samples of a concert I recorded and sang in this weekend. The choir is made up of volunteers from various local groups and is mostly amateurs. Same for the orchestra except they are all pros. This was a benefit concert where the assembled forces get one rehearsal the day of the concert, and then the performance is after lunch break.

Recording chain was 4006A pair at 50 cm width in the traditional above conductor position, with 4011A pair in Gerzon about 12ft high behind woodwinds for choir supplement. Direct into 788 at 24/96.

It's a very dry room so there's just a touch of reverb added, and RX Spectral Denoise to knock back the HVAC noise.

https://samply.app/player/RwCzXO0aMDv9UKyVW5wS/

Enable Lossless in Audio Options for full quality.

[Gutbucket]

That Kyrie!

[voltronic]

That Kyrie!

That movement was quite fun to perform when that first big crescendo hit. I was standing about 15 ft from the timpani.

[rowjimmy]

Been inactive on TS for ages mostly due to less live taping and more home recording but I have taped a couple house shows in recent times. Last one, back in the fall, was unamplified.
First up was a rotation of artists including
a Trio: acoustic guitar and vocals, with harmonica player and harmony vocalist
a female singer/guitarist who insisted in sitting off to one side
a male singer/guitarist (me) who sat in the center of the space

Then we had a noise artist running sound through the house stereo (which has a million speakers all over the house and in the garden)

Then another guitarist playing finger style 12-string and Weisenborn guitar.

I setup for the acoustic acts with a m/s setup about knee high in the front, center of the 'stage'. I set levels and left it alone and it came out quite well. The trio, in particular, sounds nice as their placement in the room is clear, especially on headphones.

If you're okay with the post production, it's really a can't miss close-mic setup.

[voltronic]

Been inactive on TS for ages mostly due to less live taping and more home recording but I have taped a couple house shows in recent times. Last one, back in the fall, was unamplified.
First up was a rotation of artists including
a Trio: acoustic guitar and vocals, with harmonica player and harmony vocalist
a female singer/guitarist who insisted in sitting off to one side
a male singer/guitarist (me) who sat in the center of the space

Then we had a noise artist running sound through the house stereo (which has a million speakers all over the house and in the garden)

Then another guitarist playing finger style 12-string and Weisenborn guitar.

I setup for the acoustic acts with a m/s setup about knee high in the front, center of the 'stage'. I set levels and left it alone and it came out quite well. The trio, in particular, sounds nice as their placement in the room is clear, especially on headphones.

If you're okay with the post production, it's really a can't miss close-mic setup.

Would you be willing to post some samples?

[rowjimmy]

Been inactive on TS for ages mostly due to less live taping and more home recording but I have taped a couple house shows in recent times. Last one, back in the fall, was unamplified.
First up was a rotation of artists including
a Trio: acoustic guitar and vocals, with harmonica player and harmony vocalist
a female singer/guitarist who insisted in sitting off to one side
a male singer/guitarist (me) who sat in the center of the space

Then we had a noise artist running sound through the house stereo (which has a million speakers all over the house and in the garden)

Then another guitarist playing finger style 12-string and Weisenborn guitar.

I setup for the acoustic acts with a m/s setup about knee high in the front, center of the 'stage'. I set levels and left it alone and it came out quite well. The trio, in particular, sounds nice as their placement in the room is clear, especially on headphones.

If you're okay with the post production, it's really a can't miss close-mic setup.

Would you be willing to post some samples?

Here's the trio:
https://on.soundcloud.com/8rnAvT41rRN9QY1L7

Here's a clip of myself:
https://on.soundcloud.com/q8JhhAJNazNqpCji6

You can actually hear that I've turned my body a bit to the audience/rig right.

[rocksuitcase]

rowjimmy- I listened to the trio on headphones, nice soundstage. good clarity of the guitar. vocals present. nice job

[grawk]

Listening on speakers, it's a fantastic recording.  Depth and width, very natural, I can pick out where everyone is.  This is one to be proud of.

[rowjimmy]

Thanks!
Still hoping headliner Liam Grant will decide to release his set (or allow me to circulate it).

[voltronic]

Here's a good example of why critical distance is important.

The choir I perform with is doing the same piece I posted a different ensemble doing back in March, and I was able to record dress rehearsal on Friday. This is in a modern church where we often perform. Upon arriving, I was surprised to learn that the chamber orchestra (smaller than the other performance) would be on the congregation floor forward of the communion rail, rather than in front of the altar as we typically do. This meant that the choir was quite far away.

Since I was not the official recording person for this, I didn't bring all my gear - just my 4006 pair and 788. My friend also brought his 414s.

So I put my omnis very high and boomed out over the conductor's head so they were level with the back row of singers on the altar, and hopefully far enough from the strings. The 414s were a bit lower in M/S. I knew that the choir was going to sound quite far away, because they were. I tried to make the best of the situation, but this was just a rehearsal recording to help the conductor evaluate things. If I was recording the concert, I would definitely add choir spots.

Here are some samples of each array. The default for each is the 4006 track, but if you click the "V2" button to the right you can access the 414 track and A/B on the fly.
https://samply.app/p/BA8P68bBYGlfg0QX0Oja

I added a gentle boost at 12 kHz to the omnis to compensate a little for the loss of articulation at a distance. The 414 pair really have the strings overbalanced to my ears.

Hopefully the "pro" company our board hires is planning to run choir spots, because they will be needed!