Topic: Universal Actives Mounting Bar for DIN, DINa, ORTF, NOS, XY90, XY110

[stevetoney]

In two weeks, I will start ordering Delrin and aluminum materials for constructing my own Universal Mounting Bar for active microphones.  I've tried to interest our resident makers of these types of things in doing this for their own profit, but there has been no active interest expressed.  This has been sitting around as an idea now for four months...so its time to take action.

The design is my own.  It's simple, yet effective and will be able to provide every major mounting configuration in a single bar, including DIN, DINa, ORTF, NOS, XY90 and XY110. 

Within reason, I'll also make the same thing for others.  I'm not gonna do this for anything other than to offer it up for others to have a MUCH needed solution to a currently unsolved problem (that there is no cheap universal mounting bar).

The reasons I'm doing this are
a) I have a good design,
b) I'm tired of not have a good mount in my own bag myself,
c) prices for such a simple device as a mic mount are just too high ($500 for a DPA, several hundred for Schoeps... gimme a break!).

Here is a conceptual drawing of my design...



In addition to this providing a universal mounting solution in one assembly, you'll notice that the cradle concept will not hinder windscreens and furballs.

The concept is that the cradle will hold the mics.  There will be a rubber O-ring or bungee that holds the capsule in place in the cradle.  I will provide plenty of extra O-rings for loss, but I'll try to incorporate into the design a feature that captures the O-ring.  In case of emergency, rubber bands are a commonly available resource that will work. 

The cradle will be sized to fit most major mic capsules.

Detents or grooves will be milled into the mating surfaces of the cradles and the center bar in order to lock-in-place the cradles at the correct mounting angle.  The assembly pieces will be attached with basic Home Depot hardware (nut, bolt, lockwashers, etc.).

The center bar will have a simple center telescoping tube that enables the bar to be expanded to a width that allows capsule spacing from 17cm to 30cm.

The center bar and cradles will be constructed from Delrin.  The XY attachments will be aluminum and will be sized to ensure that they extend around the skeleton of the Schoeps A20 mount, the Busman mount, or the Joe Meek mount.  The reason these attachments will be aluminum is a) to make them VERY low cost, and b) to provide for ease of construction (simply bending the bar stock to get the proper capsule offset.)

The center bar outside diameter will be the same diameter as the interfacing cradle on the shockmounts (I believe that's 22mm).  The split in the center bar will be offset so that the center bar will always be able to be properly centered in the shockmount.

I can't make any promises on when I will have these ready to go, but it will probably depend on how many others want to join in.  I also can't promise that this will be a slickly packaged completely professional end product...say with professional silk screening and bells and whistles and lots of Quality Control built into it.  However, I will promise that if I can't give you something that works, I won't ask for anything in return.  Obviously, I will be making and testing prototypes to ensure the quality is there and it will withstand the rigors of the club environment.

I don't know right now how much this will cost.  I know the approximate cost of materials and I can't imagine we're talking much different than the $80 - $100 range...just not sure at this point.  I do know that I can only do this price by accomodating a small enough number that I do the machining myself. 

Please let me know if you're interested in having a similar product made for your rig.

As stated above, I will be ordering materials for my prototype(s) in two weeks.  As soon as I receive these materials, I will begin making my prototype and probably post some pictures seeking feedback.  After agreement is reached on the final design, I'll solicit requests from people that want their own.

Take care.

Steve

[stevetoney]

PS to my post above.  The reason I'm posting this two weeks in advance of ordering the prototype materials is that I'm on my final 2 week trip to Slovenia for work.  When I get home, I'll finally have the time I hope to tackle such a project.

I also figure that by posting this now, it makes it more of a real commitment rather than something to sluff off another four months longer on...or maybe forever.  Course, if nobody else is interested, I might sluff it off forever.   

[Brian Skalinder]

How will the sliding center bar be secured at a fixed length and be prevented from rotating around the long axis of the rod?  Friction?

Not that it matters all that much, but...are you certain the Busman Audio, Joe Meek, and Schoeps shockmounts all have the same diameter?  The Schoeps A20(S) is 20mm.  Not sure about the others.

When you say the cradles and center bar mounting area will have detents on the mating areas for locking the cradles to the center bar at the correct angle, I'm not sure I follow.  Is this to enable locking into 90º included angle (e.g. 45º on each side), or 110º included angle?  If so, consider skipping the detents so users may vary the included angle to any angle they wish.  It's easy enough for users to create a mark on the center bar (with a pen or etch) for easy alignment at standard angles.  Personally, I would find the the ability to vary the included angle an important feature.  But others may not.  $0.02

[Jhurlbs81]

Yes, i like the variable angle option, too.

[stevetoney]

Good questions!  Thanks Brian!

How will the sliding center bar be secured at a fixed length and be prevented from rotating around the long axis of the rod?  Friction?

Initial thoughts were either friction or a locking pin of some sort that protruded both the bar and the tube.  Proper length indicated by some sort of marking convention on the tube.  This is a definite issue that prototype 'playing around with' with ferret out.

Not that it matters all that much, but...are you certain the Busman Audio, Joe Meek, and Schoeps shockmounts all have the same diameter?  The Schoeps A20(S) is 20mm.  Not sure about the others.

Not sure.  Pretty sure I'd read somewhere that they're all same.  I have the busman at home that I'll base an initial measurement from and compare with your 20mm for the A20 and the owners of the Meeks.

When you say the cradles and center bar mounting area will have detents on the mating areas for locking the cradles to the center bar at the correct angle, I'm not sure I follow.  Is this to enable locking into 90º included angle (e.g. 45º on each side), or 110º included angle?  If so, consider skipping the detents so users may vary the included angle to any angle they wish.  It's easy enough for users to create a mark on the center bar (with a pen or etch) for easy alignment at standard angles.  Personally, I would find the the ability to vary the included angle an important feature.  But others may not.  $0.02

Thats what the intent of the detents were, so that they could lock-in-place at specified angles.  The thought was that this would be a little less 'flimsly' or apt to slide away from the desired angle.  If two flat surfaces are joined together with just the pressure of the nut and bolt holding them together, the cradle angle might slip a bit when it's at the top of a stand and cables are tugging away...just a thought.

Marks work for me too and, with no detents on the mating parts, would be easier to manufacture.  I had considered that also but figured that prefabbed mounting angles would be a more attractive feature for peeps and easier to setup in a dark club environment.  But I'd actually prefer variablility on angles too! 

Opinions/votes are heartily welcomed, as well as any other comments on the design or my responses to questions!

[Javier Cinakowski]

the telescoping center peice is brliiiant....

[dmonkey]

You can count me in the interested category. Cool idea!

[ArchivalAudio]

Nice to see your idea coming to fruition

looking forward to seeing the results

peace
-- Ian

[69mako]

Looks nice.  Count me in.  I'm a machinst by trade, so if you need a hand fabricating any of it, drop me a PM.

Mako

[krsb]

I'm in, if Euro members can hop on board.

Great project!

cb

[stevetoney]

I'm in, if Euro members can hop on board.

Great project!

cb

Of course!  There's no Euro discrimination in my blood, although the Parisians could use an attitude adjustment!  LOL!

[nottingham]

  I'm in.

[beeco]

Sign me up for one of those for sure.  Great project.   

[tgakidis]

Me too please....

[krsb]

Agreed!

Vive le universal actives mounting bar!

Of course at some point, you will have to think of a name for this baby.

My first proposal: le UAMbar

cb

I'm in, if Euro members can hop on board.

Great project!

cb

Of course!  There's no Euro discrimination in my blood, although the Parisians could use an attitude adjustment!  LOL!

[carlbeck]

Yep count me in for one of these.

[F.O.Bean]

"The Steve Bar" or "The Tone Bar"

[stevetoney]

I'm gonna be honest with everyone.  After seeing Robb's vark bar array of products which basically expands the concept of the Vark Bar, I personnally feel that solves the problem that I was seeking to address by putting together a universal bar solution.

Now, I do still see that there are some differences in what I have outlined in my design (not sure I'd call that advantages though).  Main thing is that the cradle concept would allow for the universal mounting of screens. 

I've said this before, I'm not interested in getting into manufacturing.  I primarily was motivated by my own desire for a low cost universal mounting solution, which I feel that Robb has developed.  Therefore, I'm compelled to STOP this project now and let Robbs solution be the answer to the problem.

On the other hand, if peeps feel strongly about this design, I might still feel compelled to go forward with it...or I'm CERTAINLY willing to let someone else take the ball.

Thoughts?

[tgakidis]

To bad....

[stevetoney]

Ted, I guess what I meant to say in my previous post is that I'm open to continuing forward if there's still interest.  I'm personally sorta ambivalent at this point.

If there's interest and people feel that what I've proposed suits their needs better than the Vark solution, then I have no problem moving forward.  For my own purposes, either solution works for me.

My earlier message was meant more to spur some discussion with those that have already responded than to cut this project off at the pass.  To help this along, I'm gonna PM everyone that has responded to date and ask them if they have strong feelings...and ask for them to respond publicly here.

Thanks!

[tgakidis]

For me, the problem is there is no readily available clips for the akg ck_x line of caps.  So, although I love your design, it still does not solve my problem.  This makes me have to go with individual custom bars for each config. with my current active system, which could change at any time with my track record 

[F.O.Bean]

I think its a great nidea, but I feel you about Robb having what most would need.

Plus, I have a DINa AND DIN AND NOS KwonBar, plus a set of Rode NT6 HD mounts+VarkBar, so Im pretty set on my config stuff unfortunately(fortunately for me) I would like a 1" riser and one of robb's bigger bars but thats $$ I just dont have

[carlbeck]

Well seeing how Teddy & I run the same caps I am with him but I saw your solution as a good fit for us. If I understand your design I would be able to use my caps in the cradle & have the elastic be the way to secure the cap instead of clips?

[stevetoney]

Well seeing how Teddy & I run the same caps I am with him but I saw your solution as a good fit for us. If I understand your design I would be able to use my caps in the cradle & have the elastic be the way to secure the cap instead of clips?

That was the idea.  The caps would just rest in the cradle and then we'd wrap a bungee around...something rubber...condom...O-ring...rubber bands...wookie dread lock lice traps...whatever is handy.  The cradle is I think the key and the most exciting part of the design, but also probably the biggest PITA to make although I have ideas on how I'd do that too.

Thanks for the honesty guys.

The more I think about this, the less I want to tackle it...with Robbs bars being a good solution for me, my incentive basically went went completely away for this...and I'm not really wanting to get into this for say $20 or $30 a bar to compensate myself.

So, the more time passes, the less energized I am about it.  I'm pretty sure I'll be ordering one of Robbs bars later on, then I will have ZERO residual incentive.  

[it-goes-to-eleven]

I've also given a lot of thought to doing a telescoping bar..   And I have done some bars with multiple width mounts.  Ultimately, having multiple bars doesn't take up that much space.  All depends on what you want..  The basic vark design is very good, as long as the mass is kept small so it doesn't overwhelm the single shock mount.

Here's a vari-bar prototype I made in april 2006 for a friend's km140's.  In this pic my schoeps are on it.

[beeco]

PM sent.

I was thinking this proposed mounting solution might allow me to use my CA-14s on a stand and get the spacing and angles right for multiple configurations, and then be versatile enough to handle a more expensive set of mics/actives when I can afford them (ie, Milab VM-44 links, or Busman's eventual actives, or similar).  From the description provided, it seemed like it would work.  So if this bar gets built, and if it will handle my small mics as well as my eventual larger mics with actives (just planning ahead here) then I'm still interested.

[Colin Liston]

I've also given a lot of thought to doing a telescoping bar..   And I have done some bars with multiple width mounts.  Ultimately, having multiple bars doesn't take up that much space.  All depends on what you want..  The basic vark design is very good, as long as the mass is kept small so it doesn't overwhelm the single shock mount.

Here's a vari-bar prototype I made in april 2006 for a friend's km140's.  In this pic my schoeps are on it.

Where did you get those little plastic clips? 

[dennisrtyler]

I've also given a lot of thought to doing a telescoping bar..   And I have done some bars with multiple width mounts.  Ultimately, having multiple bars doesn't take up that much space.  All depends on what you want..  The basic vark design is very good, as long as the mass is kept small so it doesn't overwhelm the single shock mount.

Here's a vari-bar prototype I made in april 2006 for a friend's km140's.  In this pic my schoeps are on it.

Where did you get those little plastic clips? 

those appear to just be cable clips that you can get at home depot/lowe's in various sizes.

[dennisrtyler]

like seen here  http://cableorganizer.com/nylon-cable-clamps/

[darktrain]

I gotta say i was/am interested in these bars myself and was only having that batch of different size bars made up to maybe fill a void with bar mounts and shocks  as i think this active idea is good and has different appeal than a standard bar and I may take stab at it next time i visit my folks as i will have access to the machine shop

[69mako]

I am interested in one of these because it seems like an easier/quick way to setup different configs.  Beside if we make it ourtselves, we can custom-fit it to our exact needs.  Still interested in helping out if the desire is there.

Mako

[stevetoney]

I gotta say i was/am interested in these bars myself and was only having that batch of different size bars made up to maybe fill a void with bar mounts and shocks  as i think this active idea is good and has different appeal than a standard bar and I may take stab at it next time i visit my folks as i will have access to the machine shop

I'd say to go for it Robb.  You seem to have the means for doing this type of thing.  I definitely do not, so whatever I do I would have to either improvise or invest.  That makes it more difficult for two reasons.  1) I don't necessarily want to put out a product that looks homemade simply because that is not the way to do business, and 2) obviously, for a custom solution such as this I really have no desire or incentive to invest.

I've said all along that my main interest was the solution, not the process.  So, I am MORE than happy to say to anyone, like you Robb, take this ball and RUN RUN RUN!  The only thing I ask in return is a little bit of credit for having some ideas (and maybe a low-price production model WINK).

[stevetoney]

I've used elastic shockcord extensively in my 402x mount designs.
maybe you can glean something from these for hold-downs?
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v729/MokePics2/Homemade%20gear/

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,98523.msg1338500.html#msg1338500
these things, with the elastic shockcord and clamps ^^, hold rock steady!  they will not let the mics slip in the slightest, even with rigorous shaking.

Precisely!  Moke shared these pictures in the past and I also made some Moke bars when I had the DPAs.  These worked better than anything else I had, but my particular construction still had problems with windscreen interference. 

Anyway, the Moke bars were the inspiration for the cradle idea in this design with the bungee hold-downs.