Topic: what card/hyper active alternatives are there?

[nicegrin]

Just wanted to start a thread trying to sum up all the alternatives of active setups when it comes to cards/hypers.

I have both audix 1280 HC and SP CMC-8 HC, they are both ok but abit weak on the bassresponse so I´m looking to upgrade to something better without going all the way to scheops MK4s/MK41s...  AKG CK93s would work I guess and seem like a good option but are there more options to concider?
I´ve heard that it is possible to make actives to AKG CK63s too but that nobody seem to make them anymore, is that so?
Anyway, would be nice if people could answer what alternatives there is so that this thread could be a good resource to anyone wondering about the same things...

Thanks
Nicegrin

[page]

Just wanted to start a thread trying to sum up all the alternatives of active setups when it comes to cards/hypers.

I have both audix 1280 HC and SP CMC-8 HC, they are both ok but abit weak on the bassresponse so I´m looking to upgrade to something better without going all the way to scheops MK4s/MK41s...  AKG CK93s would work I guess and seem like a good option but are there more options to concider?
I´ve heard that it is possible to make actives to AKG CK63s too but that nobody seem to make them anymore, is that so?
Anyway, would be nice if people could answer what alternatives there is so that this thread could be a good resource to anyone wondering about the same things...

Thanks
Nicegrin

neumann AK40/AK50
beyer ck930/ck950
mbho ka200/ka500
rode nt6 nt45-Card/C4-Hyper (The C4's are actually from Studio Projects, but they work with the nt6 bodies/cables for some reason)
If you use the akg 460s and the special (and discontinued cables) you can run them active style with the older ck1/ck3 caps.

edit: added the rodes
edit2: changed the akg info

[twatts (pants are so over-rated...)]

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=122442.0

Fluff on the Beyers...

Terry

[page]

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=122442.0

Fluff on the Beyers...

Terry

Well, if we are going to talk fluffing: ex1, ex2, ex3 (all beyer ck930s). I'd love to borrow a set of MC/CK950s to try them out before I drop the coin, but I suspect I'll buy them anyway. 

edit: those three examples are a good representation of how the 930s sound outside. ex4 and ex5 would be some examples of indoor work w/ the 930s.

[johnw]

If you use the akg 460s and the special (and discontinued cables) you can run them active style with the 60/63 caps.

The caps are different. The active caps are actually ck1x and ck3x, not the ck61 and ck63. They are similarly discontinued and hard to find. I also believe they are FET and not serviceable.

[page]

If you use the akg 460s and the special (and discontinued cables) you can run them active style with the 60/63 caps.

The caps are different. The active caps are actually ck1x and ck3x, not the ck61 and ck63. They are similarly discontinued and hard to find. I also believe they are FET and not serviceable.

just the reducer rings don't cut it? for some reason I thought the cables were the big problem. My bad, updated my first post.

[dactylus]

For cards:  Milab VM-44 Links

 

[page]

For cards:  Milab VM-44 Links

 

I almost included them, but they don't make any hypers (which I gathered was part of the criteria). 

[John Willett]

If you want a good bass end, then the best are the Sennheiser MKH 8040 / 8050, these go lower than pretty well all other directional mics.
Frequency is flat from 30Hz to 50kHz.

The MKH 40 / 50 also go pretty low - but not quite so low as the 8000 series and the upper limit is 20kHz.

Other good ones to look at are Neumann, DPA, Schoeps, Gefell and MBHO.

[dactylus]

For cards:  Milab VM-44 Links

 

I almost included them, but they don't make any hypers (which I gathered was part of the criteria). 

^
I heard the unsubstantiated rumor that hypers might be a future option for the Milab VM-44 Links.   

[page]

For cards:  Milab VM-44 Links

 

I almost included them, but they don't make any hypers (which I gathered was part of the criteria). 

^
I heard the unsubstantiated rumor that hypers might be a future option for the Milab VM-44 Links.   

oooo, aaaa. 

[JasonSobel]

Other good ones to look at are Neumann, DPA, Schoeps, Gefell and MBHO.

As John says, the Sennheiser MKH 8040 / 8050 are also a good option, though also very expensive.

And in regards to his list of "other good ones to look at are Neumann, DPA, Schoeps, Gefell and MBHO"

• The Nuemann's have been discussed earlier in this thread.
• DPA's are great if you only need cardioid (DPA doesn't make a hypercardioid).
• Schoeps have been discussed in the this thread.
• Microtech Gefell makes awesome mics, but they don't make an "active" or "remote cable" option (which is what this thread is all about).
• MBHO has also been previously discussed in this thread.

[nicegrin]

Thanks everybody for the input!

For those alternatives listed so far, what prices are we talking about for caps+actives?

I guess the only solutions around (or below) $1000 is the AKG 9x + cables, the Rode NT6 setup and possibly the Beyer CK930s right?
All other options are closer to $2000, right?

[page]

Thanks everybody for the input!

For those alternatives listed so far, what prices are we talking about for caps+actives?

I guess the only solutions around (or below) $1000 is the AKG 9x + cables, the Rode NT6 setup and possibly the Beyer CK930s right?
All other options are closer to $2000, right?

if you are willing to go used: The blueline AKGs, the Rode NT6 and the MBHOs would clock in around $1200 I think for both card/hyper caps. The beyers would set you back around 1900-2k for a set of bodies and *both* sets of caps (presuming you get the bodies and cards used and the hypers new), just the cards could be had used for around $1100 if you actually find a set for sale used otherwise they are hovering around 1500 for a new set. AKG 460 remote setup and the neumann setup would be over 2k for both sets of caps (imho) as would a schoeps setup using the CMRs or nbox instead of bodies.

[Gutbucket]

DPA's are great if you only need cardioid (DPA doesn't make a hypercardioid).

They now make a supercard.. in the miniature series, as a hanging choir mic- 4098H Supercardioid Microphone

Same microdot termination and powering requirements as the 406x.  Haven't seen pricing yet but they seem derived from their 4099 instrument mics which list for about $500 each.  They probably have a similar rolled-off low frequency response to the 4099 which was designed for close mic'ing. 

I've heard the 4099s used as a stereo pair on some classical material with the instrument mounting hardware removed, and they sounded very nice, with typical DPA clarity. [Anecdotal, limited sample experience disclaimer]. I thought they sounded fantastic mixed with a pair of low-passed 4060s next to them to reinforce the bottom response.   Haven't heard them on amplified material.   I'm quite interested based on what I heard, just somewhat hesitant about the low end response.

[edit- unbalanced, not not an active cable connection, but very small so they so they'd work for typical active cap apps]

[DSatz]

Ummm ... of all the microphones mentioned so far, only the Schoeps actually has an active extension cable. All the others, as far as I'm aware, have passive extensions. The various systems are quite different from one another from the point of view of vulnerability to external interference and potential loss of signal quality.

So could we please not call something "active" unless it is truly (electrically) active? Is that too much to ask?

Also, most microphones that are called either "hypercardioid" or "supercardioid" are in fact something in between the two, generally coming a little closer to supercardioid if you have to pick one or the other. There is less difference in the actual patterns of available microphone types than you might think based on their manufacturers' choice of one or the other term. True hypercardioid microphones are especially rare; there's fairly widespread agreement that the in-between pattern is much more useful in practice.

--best regards

[illconditioned]

Ummm ... of all the microphones mentioned so far, only the Schoeps actually has an active extension cable. All the others, as far as I'm aware, have passive extensions. The various systems are quite different from one another from the point of view of vulnerability to external interference and potential loss of signal quality.

So could we please not call something "active" unless it is truly (electrically) active? Is that too much to ask?

--best regards

Are you saying MiLabs or MHBO or Beyerdynamic are passive?  Do you consider a FET in the housing behind the capsule "active", or do you require some gain and/or line driver there as well?

  Richard

[DSatz]

If an extension device contains active circuitry (typically a simple impedance converter with a low-noise FET) then it's active, of course.

But if the FET is in the housing along with the capsule, then the capsule is what's active. A good example of that arrangement would be Neumann's KM 100-series microphones. The capsule heads for that series are the AK 20, AK 30, etc.--the "A" stands for "active" because the capsule heads themselves contain the impedance converter stage (see attached photo; the bottom half of the capsule head is an impedance converter "barrel" that is common to all this series of capsules).

In some microphones that have remote capsule capability, there's no active circuitry either before or within the capsule extension devices--though of course those designs can be vulnerable to a loss of signal quality both due to stray capacitance and RFI. Such microphones don't always hold up well at concerts where there can be dozens of GHz-range transmitters close by in people's pockets, but they're a lot cheaper to manufacture.

Does that make sense? If a capsule extension device (cable, gooseneck, whatever) has active circuitry in it, it's active; if not, then it's just a capsule extension cable, or a capsule extension "whatever."

My apologies to the original poster for temporarily hijacking the thread; let's return to his original question now, OK?

--best regards

[illconditioned]

If an extension device contains active circuitry (typically a simple impedance converter with a low-noise FET) then it's active, of course.

But if the FET is in the housing along with the capsule, then the capsule is what's active. A good example of that arrangement would be Neumann's KM 100-series microphones. The capsule heads for that series are the AK 20, AK 30, etc.--the "A" stands for "active" because the capsule heads themselves contain the impedance converter stage (see attached photo; the bottom half of the capsule head is an impedance converter "barrel" that is common to all this series of capsules).

In some microphones with remote capsule capability there's no active circuitry either before or within the capsule extension devices--though of course those designs can be vulnerable to a loss of signal quality, so they should be used only when there's no alternative.

OK, I understand your distinction: active capsule vs. active cable.

AFAIK a circuit without a FET, either in the cable or in the capsule, would *not* work.  Too much loss.  You cannot go more than a few inches with the high impedance output directly from the capsule.  There are some AKG "extension tubes" or  "swivels" that are just a wire, but I think the tubes go for less than 12".  There are some solutions that use electrets (instead of external polarization), but those still need a FET to work.  We don't call these "active" usually, but they still have a FET, either in the capsule, or in the head that the capsule screws in to.
 
That said, I believe most of the (relatively new) options presented (beyerdynamic ck930, vmlink 44, mbho) are active *cable* designs.  AFAIK Neumann is the only active *capsule* design (for patent reasons, probably, as you mentioned earlier).

  Richard

[JasonSobel]

That said, I believe most of the (relatively new) options presented (beyerdynamic ck930, vmlink 44, mbho) are active *cable* designs.  AFAIK Neumann is the only active *capsule* design (for patent reasons, probably, as you mentioned earlier).

Richard,

actually, I think you have it backwards.  most of the options talked about in this thread are actually active *capsule* designs.  The Neumann, the beyerdynamic, and the MBHO are all definitely active *capsules*, and the cable is just a plan old cable, with no electronics.  I'm not sure about the Milabs, as I have never seen one of those.

- Jason

[illconditioned]

That said, I believe most of the (relatively new) options presented (beyerdynamic ck930, vmlink 44, mbho) are active *cable* designs.  AFAIK Neumann is the only active *capsule* design (for patent reasons, probably, as you mentioned earlier).

Richard,

actually, I think you have it backwards.  most of the options talked about in this thread are actually active *capsule* designs.  The Neumann, the beyerdynamic, and the MBHO are all definitely active *capsules*, and the cable is just a plan old cable, with no electronics.  I'm not sure about the Milabs, as I have never seen one of those.

- Jason

Aha.  I think you're right, active cables not active capsules.  OK, that is correct...

  Richard

[John Willett]

And the Sennheiser MKH 8000 series are actually the complete microphone in the capsule - the remote cable is fully balanced and the XLR bit is just an adaptor.

[JasonSobel]

And the Sennheiser MKH 8000 series are actually the complete microphone in the capsule - the remote cable is fully balanced and the XLR bit is just an adaptor.

From your description, it sounds like the MKH 8000 series is like the Schoeps CCM series and/or the compact DPA series of mics.
My question is, if the XLR bit at the end is just an adaptor, why didn't Sennheiser choose to just make the cable end an XLR connector?

[page]

And the Sennheiser MKH 8000 series are actually the complete microphone in the capsule - the remote cable is fully balanced and the XLR bit is just an adaptor.

From your description, it sounds like the MKH 8000 series is like the Schoeps CCM series and/or the compact DPA series of mics.
My question is, if the XLR bit at the end is just an adaptor, why didn't Sennheiser choose to just make the cable end an XLR connector?

Size constraints on the other (cap) end maybe?

I swear the milab vm-links are the same way, mini-microphone style without a dedicated "body" to connect through. Who has a set and can confirm?
edit: dennis ftw. I couldn't find pictures online. Thanks!

[dennisrtyler]

milabs have a body in the chain

[Todd R]

Milabs are also active-cable, not active capsule.  The capsule is the same capsule used on the full body vm44-classic and doesn't have any components in it.  The active-cables have a housing at the end of the cable which I'm assuming has the active components (eg, FET) in it, since those components pretty clearly aren't found in the capsule.

Somehow I was thinking the Beyer mk930 were the same way, though I haven't seen them up close.  I agree though on the mbho's having owned them for a short while -- those are like the neumanns and use an active-capsule design.

[JasonSobel]

Milabs are also active-cable, not active capsule.  The capsule is the same capsule used on the full body vm44-classic and doesn't have any components in it.  The active-cables have a housing at the end of the cable which I'm assuming has the active components (eg, FET) in it, since those components pretty clearly aren't found in the capsule.

Somehow I was thinking the Beyer mk930 were the same way, though I haven't seen them up close.  I agree though on the mbho's having owned them for a short while -- those are like the neumanns and use an active-capsule design.

here's a picture of a beyerdynamic CK930 capsule (not the best picture, but it's clear enough)



The cable itself is just a 4-conductor cable, with mini-XLR connectors on each end. The stock cable was ~10ft (3meters), and I now also have a pair of 5ft cables, and a pair of 20 ft cables.  making the additional cables between the cap and body wasn't any more difficult than soldering a mini-XLR connector (which proved to be too small for my soldering abilities, so I had darktrain make one set, and HAVE make the other).