Topic: Omnis for stacks micing?

[laptaper]

Hey all,

I'm going to the 5th Annual Festy in Roseland, VA, in October, and last year I finally managed to nail down the right setup and gear to mic the stacks in for the tent stage.  The recordings are better than the board, IMHO (everything but the vocals, which are the same, is much clearer and more present), but there's one fly in the ointment.  The recordings actually sound a bit too bright.  I'm assuming that's because the sound engineer sets up the PA that way because the high freqs are the first to go as you move away from the stage, so thirty feet or whatever from the stage where the engineer is it sounds "just exactly right".

That hard edge is taken off when I play it back in Winamp (or Audacious - I use Linux) with the top two equalizer bands down about 1.4 dB.  I suppose I could do that in editing, but since I prefer the original quality in a recording I was thinking instead of changing my mic setup.  Last year I was using AKG-C480B's with CK-61 cards and internal mic pads at -10 dB (pads the last day only, alas), going into a Tascam DR-40 with peak reduction turned on (to automatically lower the recording volume in case of clipping).  This time, though, I was thinking of using CK-60 omnis instead.  A local musician who plays the Chapman stick once told me the best way to record him was to put omnis right in front of the stacks because it would give the fullest bass sound.  In other words, I could use the omnis to balance out the tone naturally instead of doing it with EQ in the editing.  What do you think?

Here are two of my recordings from last year.  The first is from 10/12/2013 when I didn't think to use the mics' internal pads.  The second recording is from the following day, when I finally remembered to use them:

https://archive.org/details/gpgds2013-10-12.akg-c480b.tetzeli.flac16
https://archive.org/details/soundrabbit2013-10-13.akg-c480b.part.tetzeli.flac16

[DSatz]

> since I prefer the original quality in a recording ...

I do understand what you mean, but if you've found a good EQ setting, it's entirely legitimate to use that. Especially since it's a mild setting (less than 1.5 dB)--that's what EQ is really good for. You can't usually use EQ to make a bad-sounding recording sound good, but if a recording already sounds pretty good, a touch of EQ can sometimes make it sound really good.

Just speaking as an old curmudgeon, no competent engineer of my generation (or, especially, the older generations) would ever be a purist about using EQ. Nearly every vinyl LP ever made was EQed at some stage. It's a skill to be proud of. Of course a big part of the skill (as with martial arts) is in knowing when not to use it. But since you seem able to practice restraint, I'd encourage you to use and develop your skills, and don't just accumulate more stuff in your equipment locker.

--best regards

[carlbeck]

I don't see a problem using omnis if you are right up against the stacks, plenty of stealth tapers do this very thing with great success. I do feel you will have to roll off the lower end with eq in post depending on how far you set up from the stacks but the AKG CK-62's have a very full natural sound. It's worth a shot for at least a set or two vs the CK-61's as an experiment to see which you prefer. One thing I found interesting in your archive link was that you used a 61 on one channel & a 63 on the other? I think most here, myself included would advise against using two different polar patterns in a stereo pair.

[laptaper]

Thanks for the responses.  Addressing them in order, first, I MIGHT try using EQ in post this time if the omnis don't work, but I don't want to fall prey to the fallacy of making them sound like a (shudder!) board.     I suppose trying it with one or two tracks before I leave and seeing how I like it might be worth it.  I use Audacity in Linux, and I don't know how good the EQ is.  Audacity does all right in most other respects, though.

If all goes like last year, I'll be right up in front of the stacks.  It's a tent stage, mics will be up 8 feet or so and no more than 4 feet from the speakers.  Only thing separating them from the stage will be a barrier leaving crew just enough room to pass in front of it.

Finally, mixing it up between the omnis and cards sounds like a good idea.  That way next year I'll know for sure which setup works best.  As for why the mismatched caps, I used the hyper at the side of the tent facing toward the main stage.  The year before I'd had bleed-through from the main stage, as artists on either stage sometimes didn't start or end on time and overlapped.  They had it much more under control last year, though, so I only did it like that for one day.

I have to admit that when I listen to the recordings from my stereo instead of my computer speakers they sound less harsh.  I'll listen again tomorrow - maybe the status quo will prevail.

Thanks for all the help and advice!

[wharfratjoe]

I do post work on my recordings all the time now. Izotope  tools work wonders even with small adjustments and then tweaking with just a little EQ to take the edge off or add a little makes a huge difference IMO.

I just got a pair of KRK 6 G3 monitor speakers and the sound out of these compared to the Logitech desktop speakers i was using is HUGE! I hear so much more now, i want to go back and remaster some of my earlier recordings.

[laptaper]

Well, after listening to my stack recordings the other day, I think I'm going to leave them alone in post.  I kept going back and forth with the EQ on and off in Banshee while listening over the stereo speakers, and honestly couldn't tell which I liked better.  If that's the case then I'd rather save the EQ for the playback as the mood suits me, where I can always "walk it back", as it were, rather than make permanent changes in editing that I'm then stuck with.

I've been thinking also that maybe CD-63 hypers (for both speakers!  ) might be the way to go instead of omnis, since they might cut a bit of the highs.  I only went with the cards because I wanted the crowd behind the mics, but listening to the right channel only of the Giant Panda set (where I had the one hyper running), there's definitely a healthy crowd contingent.  So I think I'll go with the hypers and hopefully that will solve the problem.

[Gutbucket]

Try them all, make notes on which patterns you used to record what, and compare the results when you get back home.  That's really the best way to get a handle on all this.  Each capsule pattern will have a somewhat different high-frequency response and will sound somewhat different used from the same recording position. 

There are other things going on which will effect the perceived sound balance in addition to the on-axis high-frequency response of the capsules-

From the distances you are recording (or from farther away), the more directional the pattern is, the more the lowest frequencies will be rolled off in the resulting recording.  Omnis will produce a recording with much more low subwoofer bass in it than hypercardioids.  That in itself may make the omnis sound less 'bright' even if the high-frequency response is the same as the more directional patterns.  The twist on that is the "proximity effect" that Jon mentioned, which increases bass response as a directional microphone is placed very close to the source.  But that doesn't typically begin to happen until the microphone is closer than maybe 3' or so, and typically becomes most apparent within 1'.  Think vocal microphones and the difference in vocal timbre when the singer holds the microphone a couple feet away verses right against their lips.  In addition to the difference in level, there is typically a rather large difference in bass response and 'heft' in the sound of their voice.  That's proximity effect.

Another thing is simply the overall pickup pattern of the microphone pair.   That close to the stacks, the sound from the PA will dominate simply due to its far greater level than that of the audience and other sources like the instruments on stage, yet omnis will still pickup more of that stuff than cardioids or hypercardioids will, especially between songs when the sound from the PA becomes minimal. 

Consider the combined pickup pattern shape of both microphones used together, and consider where the least sensitive portions of their directional patterns are pointing.  You can use that to your advantage.  For cardioids, that least sensitive portion faces directly towards the rear for each microphone, but the more the two microphones are angled apart from each other more the overall pickup pattern becomes less cardioid shaped and more sub-cardioid like.  If they both face straight ahead, then the overall pattern of the two remains cardioid-shaped with the minimum sensitivity achievable to the rear.  If you want to do that, you'll probably want to space  them apart from each other more if you can to make up for the lack of angle between them.  With hypercardioids, the least sensitive portion of their pickup pattern lies on the surface of a rear facing cone, rather than directly to the rear.

[F.O.Bean]

Hypers/Supercards wont cut highs, they'll cut lows. Most hypers/supercards have a natural low freq cut to them, thats why they are usually a better choice, IMO, for indoor recording, because they cut some of those intense lows that I often find indoors. They also have a tighter pattern and will help reduce crowd noise in chatty venues!

[acidjack]

i wouldn't use a peak limiter on the DR-40 or any other deck, ever, unless I was recording speech. If your levels are consistently too hot (which they might be, on a DR-40) get a line-level attenuator for each channel for 15 bucks.

I would assume most stack tapes with cardiod mics up close sound bad. Certainly the ones I've made haven't been so good.  Omnis are the way to go at the really short distance (5-10ft).

[hi and lo]

I would assume most stack tapes with cardiod mics up close sound bad. Certainly the ones I've made haven't been so good.  Omnis are the way to go at the really short distance (5-10ft).

Nah... cards can sound great right on the stacks, even better than omnis imo. In a larger venue, the 'low roar' of the crowd behind you, reduced by cardioids pattern, can sound absolutely incredible on playback.

[Gutbucket]

Heh, I now realize I overlooked an essential aspect of my own suggestion.  When I suggested this earlier..

Try them all, make notes on which patterns you used to record what, and compare the results when you get back home.  That's really the best way to get a handle on all this.

I then went on to mention a bunch of arcane microphone properties that may be involved.  All that stuff isn't irrelevant to what's going on, but the "try it and see" principle obviously applies far more strongly to the subjective impression the resulting resulting recording makes upon you, and to people's individual experiences of the different things they've tried which have or haven't worked out well for them, than it applies to comparing differences in the underlying mechanics of the microphones.

If understanding the mechanics of this stuff interests you and helps you make better recordings, then great.  If not, just ignore all that noise.  I realize I tend to go on about it at more length than many here care to read.  In either case, the only way to really know which is best is to try it and decide which you like better.  You have both types of microphones so it's easy enough to test and find out.  All that really matters is which mics and which configuration sounds best to you in that situation, along with the ability to choose the better sounding option consistently in similar situations.  "Why" doesn't really matter so much unless figuring that stuff out is interesting to you.  As often as not, the actual reason why and the expected reason why (along with the justifications on message forums) are actually unrelated!  Otherwise it's all either a attempt to correlate the mechanical "whys" with the resulting subjective qualities, or a matter of who's opinion you choose to identify with.

[blg]

I would assume most stack tapes with cardiod mics up close sound bad. Certainly the ones I've made haven't been so good.  Omnis are the way to go at the really short distance (5-10ft).

Nah... cards can sound great right on the stacks, even better than omnis imo. In a larger venue, the 'low roar' of the crowd behind you, reduced by cardioids pattern, can sound absolutely incredible on playback.

I've done more than a few stack tapes with mk41's and all came out great. It's for the most part convinced me that i don't need another set of caps since i can also record towards the back of a room with good results.

[laptaper]

Hmmmmmmmm...  Well, given what I'm reading, I'll give the omnis a shot the first night of the Festy.  The Infamous Stringdusters are putting on a tent set for the Thursday night arrivals.  It'll be a baptism by fire, since they often sound like they have a drummer even though they don't!  And I'm definitely in the pro-stack micing corner.  Whatever flaws are inherent to the process, it's definitely better than the muffled and crowd-overwhelmed sound you get taping back near the board, at least in a tent.

Also, the peak reduction is just an added precaution.  With the -10 dB pads on my AKG's, as long as I keep the recording volume at 6 (out of 100) or below there's generally no clipping.  The peak reduction is so I can walk away from  the mics knowing that if the volume suddenly goes up, the record volume will automatically go down.  Even though it stays there once it drops, that is much easier to fix later on in editing than continued clipping (which can't be fixed, actually).

[Gutbucket]

Tents are generally terrible for recording, it's often a reflected mess inside.  Getting up close to the PA is a good strategy in one.

If you like making stack recordings, try recording directly in front of of a center stage fill sometime if those are present and you can manage it (they are the smaller PA speakers arranged along the front edge of the stage facing the audience, sometimes one at either corner of the stage toed-in to face the center front audience).  Doing that can get a very nice combination of clear PA sound, direct on-stage instrument sound, and positive enthusiasm without a bunch of gab from the most interested audience members up front.

[adrianf74]

I would assume most stack tapes with cardiod mics up close sound bad. Certainly the ones I've made haven't been so good.  Omnis are the way to go at the really short distance (5-10ft).

Nah... cards can sound great right on the stacks, even better than omnis imo. In a larger venue, the 'low roar' of the crowd behind you, reduced by cardioids pattern, can sound absolutely incredible on playback.

I've done more than a few stack tapes with mk41's and all came out great. It's for the most part convinced me that i don't need another set of caps since i can also record towards the back of a room with good results.

Meh.   I've mixed feelings on this one. I'm using MK41's and MK22's these days.  After using the MK41's up close for a show (about 5-10 feet as blg describes), I found the recording clear but lacking depth or 'spatialness'.  I used the MK22's for another show at anywhere from 5 feet from the stacks to about 20 feet (crowd was wook-central) and I *MUCH* preferred that recording (less "boxy" sounding). 

MK41's are great for taping from about 20-30 feet back (and beyond) but up closer than that and you're recording something that seems compromised (at least from my experience).

[Gutbucket]

Depth and spaciousness are more subtle qualities than clarity and reverberant-balance issues, and not as obvious to, or valued by all listeners IME.  But I agree with that assessment and note that those qualities are a few of the of the things which I value most highly in good recordings and what set the excellent ones apart from otherwise technically good ones.

[laptaper]

I'm hoping the omnis will give me exactly that spaciousness and depth.  BTW, what are mk41's and mk22's, respectively?  Hypers, cards, omnis?  Something else?  I have many Schoeps recordings that I love (though I go for something less "dark" with my own gear), but know pretty much zilch about them.

[Gutbucket]

mk41 = supercardioid
mk22 = "open" cardioid (sort of midway bewteen cardioid and sub-cardioid)

[laptaper]

Good news: My Festy recordings turned out even better than last year.  I ran both omnis and cards.  Both setups sounded excellent, no discernible brittleness this time - perhaps better sound than last year?  The omnis, especially, have a really nice depth to them.  The bass is a bit overpowering for computer speakers or a boom box, but over stereo speakers they sound VERY nice and full.

Bad news: For the first 24 hours I unknowingly had my deck set up to record from the internal mics, not the AKG's in front of the stacks.  Grrrrrrrrr!  I was too focused on relaxing this year and got sloppy.  Back to Anal Bill next year.

BUT what I did get sounds excellent, including the first ever electric performance by the Infamous Stringdusters.  You can check out the recordings for yourself here:

http://bt.etree.org/?searchsss=btet&cat=0