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Offline heathen

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B9Audio microphone discussion
« on: August 28, 2018, 06:58:07 PM »
These mics were mentioned in the another thread, and I couldn't find any previous discussion of them so I figured why not start a dedicated thread.

Web site: https://b9audio.com/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/B9audio/ (there is some interesting info, including several samples, posted here)

The CM180 in particular looks interesting.  It appears to use a single-diaphragm figure 8 capsule on a "CMP1" preamp body.  At only 82.5 mm long, it's relatively compact.  There are some other interesting things, but some of it involves digging through their Facebook posts.  Hopefully the web site gets organized better. 
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Offline Walstib62

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Re: B9Audio microphone discussion
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2018, 07:10:30 PM »
b9 audio sample:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMgKfS-qnW6_467bGzRpCjQ

I'm interested to learn more about these.

Offline muj

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Re: B9Audio microphone discussion
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2018, 04:26:11 AM »


i use the csm88 as blumlein par and use a Pearl ELM-C as "mid" mic, results are outstanding. blumlein is the truth

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: B9Audio microphone discussion
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2018, 09:18:25 AM »
Quoted from the thread heathen mentions in his OP here-


starting to love this one...
^^^^
What kind of mic is that muj?
A search turned up B9 Audio- https://b9audio.com/. Looks to be a Chinese microphone manufacturer emulating Schoeps. 

Their microphones look attractive, the published response graphs look good and the samples on the site sound nice, but not much info there otherwise.  Here's a cut-sheet on the Blumlien stereo microphone muj appears to be using- https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/48a8cb31-a4e2-44b6-a8d3-b3e77664ad9f/downloads/1ccqt2plq_835666.pdf

In addition to that and various cardioids, omnis, a supercard and and shotgun, there is a native B-format ambisonic microphone and an interesting emulation of the Schoeps KFM360 called the VR Ball- https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/48a8cb31-a4e2-44b6-a8d3-b3e77664ad9f/downloads/1ci1clsft_157637.pdf.

It is similar to KFM360 but includes the addition of a 2nd pair of fig-8's, vertically-oriented in addition to the horizontally-oriented 8's coincidently arranged with the flush-mounted omnis on either side of the sphere, as well as a front-center microphone position which apparently may be swapped between various polar patterns.  Making a total channel count of 7 recorded channels rather than 4 if all microphones are in use.  This one is interesting since the KFM360 has long represented a holy grail microphone for me (which is actually attainable, if not by myself), which has influenced my thinking about live music recording and the development of my oddball mic techniques. I dreamed up pretty much this same combination a few times over the years while thinking about that stuff and it's interesting to see such a flight of fancy appear as an actual product!

Hoping muj will chime in with more info and details on the qualities of the Blumlien stereo mic..
Taiwanese Company..big difference ( Taiwan has a western approach to QC)

The mic is only 830 usd..but they sound scaringly like schoeps...

I use mine With a Pearl ELM-C as a "mid" mic… i.e adjust the Level mid channel post Production, to correct phase or add more body to sound..etc

That CM180 fig-8 is intriguing to me. 
And curious about the supercards and subcards.
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Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: B9Audio microphone discussion
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2018, 09:25:10 AM »


i use the csm88 as blumlein par and use a Pearl ELM-C as "mid" mic, results are outstanding. blumlein is the truth
I was gonna chime in that the B9Audio mic line is interesting, especially the fig 8 caps and the VR ball variation.
BUT the bolded segment above caught my attention as I too feel blumlein is the truth   ;D
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: B9Audio microphone discussion
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2018, 10:41:16 AM »
Oftimes we can't handle the truth!

A more hyper-realist take seems the fictionalized-truth we tend to desire from further back in the room, yet for what muj is using it for, truth = beauty.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2018, 11:20:33 AM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: B9Audio microphone discussion
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2018, 10:59:36 AM »
Jumping right into analysis of the VR ball array.  With heathen's permission, I'm copying here a bit of PM discussion we've been having about the VR ball microphone this morning-

I didn't want to further derail the "holy grail mics" thread with this, but I figured you might be interested.  They've shared a VR ball recording that you can download the raw output and mess with: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3ExjEeqM74&feature=youtu.be (look in the description for the link).

Cool, thanks.

Quote
Here's more details from their Facebook page:

Use 180628_VR_Ball_12_Binaural.wav as the fundamental for all channel and...
^ That's the two flush-mounted omnis (corresponding to the YouTube video audio)
Quote
Front stereo: Mix with [in phase] 180628_VR_Ball_34_Figure8_H.wav
Back stereo: Mix with [invert phase] 180628_VR_Ball_34_Figure8_H.wav
^this is what the KFM360 does, by Mid/Side matrixing each omni with a coincident forward facing 8
Quote
Top stereo: Mix with [in phase] 180628_VR_Ball_56_Figure8_V.wav
Front, Up stereo: Mix with [in phase] 180628_VR_Ball_34_Figure8_H.wav and [in phase] 180628_VR_Ball_56_Figure8_V.wav
Rear, Up stereo: Mix with [invert phase] 180628_VR_Ball_34_Figure8_H.wav and [in phase] 180628_VR_Ball_56_Figure8_V.wav
^This is a direct substitution of the upward facing 8's for the forward facing ones, producing up/down facing patterns rather than front/back facing patterns
Quote
Front, Low stereo: Mix with [in phase] 180628_VR_Ball_34_Figure8_H.wav and [invert phase] 180628_VR_Ball_56_Figure8_V.wav
Rear, Low stereo: Mix with [invert phase] 180628_VR_Ball_34_Figure8_H.wav and [invert phase] 180628_VR_Ball_56_Figure8_V.wav
^This sums the forward and upward facing 8's prior to Mid/Side matrixing with the omnis, producing a fig-8 pointing +45 degrees above (or -45 degrees below) the horizontal plane, and thus patterns facing either way along that diagonal axis when matrixed with the omnis.

musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: B9Audio microphone discussion
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2018, 11:14:10 AM »
and this..  an ambisonic decode option for the VR ball also described on the facebook page-

Quote
Decode to WXYZ, VR format B:
W = Sum 180628_VR_Ball_12_Binaural.wav
X = Sum 180628_VR_Ball_34_Figure8_H.wav
Y = S channel of 180628_VR_Ball_12_Binaural.wav (Left to Right difference)
Z = Sum 180628_VR_Ball_34_Figure8_V.wav

^
That ambisonic transcode option is interesting, I wonder how well it works.  Ambisonic theoreticians will hate this as all the derived ambisonic B-format component channels are sums of two channels spaced by the diameter of the sphere, making it mathematically a total mess.  It also uses the difference signal of the two omnis to produce the Y signal bi-directional component, which will behave differently from the X and Z bi-directional components produced by the (summed) fig-8 mics.  Acoustically all this will produce acoustic spatial aliasing which varies with frequency, but perhaps in practice it works out okay and sounds alright. 

What I think would be far more interesting than trying to use it as a substitute single-point ambisonic mic would be using it as two separate sphere-baffled single-plane ambisonic microphones.  The analogy being this- the KFM360 expands on head-sphere-baffled omnis by turning the two flush-mounted omnis into two Mid/Side arrangements.  The VR ball expands that further by turning those Mid/Side arrangements into essentially two DMS double-mid/side arrangements (or more accurately- mid/double-side arrangements) which can be manipulated as two single-plane ambisonic microphones, sphere-baffled from each other.  That eliminates the spatial aliasing problems as all the Mid/Side-ambisonic summing is of close-to coincident-capsules on the same side of the sphere. 

One could then vary polar-pattern and angle of virtual microphones on either side of the sphere in the X and Z dimensions.  The Y dimension pattern would not be controllable directly but is influenced by the sphere-mounting and sideways orientation of the omnis.  Actually one could try using the difference-signal of the baffled omnis to gain some control over Y (as they describe deriving Y for B-format), without compromising X and Z in order to get something closer to two fully periphonic ambisonic microphone positions, separated by the sphere baffle in the middle.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2018, 11:21:33 AM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: B9Audio microphone discussion
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2018, 11:18:43 AM »
Feel free to ignore the obtuse geek-out I just posted above concerning the VR ball microphone array if it reads like Greek to you.  I hope that doesn't derail the thread and discussion of B9 microphones which other tapers might actually end up trying! 
« Last Edit: August 29, 2018, 11:23:39 AM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline muj

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Re: B9Audio microphone discussion
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2018, 12:10:24 PM »
The VR ball is very interesting, I have the BS-3d from The Audio  (  couldn't find a KMF360 used on the market), and it makes the binaural sphere concept more flexible, sound gets more "real" by adding the "reverb" from the fig 8s

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: B9Audio microphone discussion
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2018, 03:51:03 PM »
^ Earlier, I was listening to the individual VR ball mic pair files linked in the Youtube description with just that in mind.  This is fun and interesting and I recommend anyone reading who is interested to give it a listen. You don't need to do any mixing, just download and listen comparatively to the 3 stereo WAV files from that session, switching back and forth between them.  What you will be listening to is a comparison between a pair of flush-mounted sphere-baffled omnis, a pair of sphere-baffled forward facing figure-8s, and a pair of sphere-baffled upward facing figure-8s.

To do so go to the YouTube page- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3ExjEeqM74&feature=youtu.be and look in the description for the link to the WAV file set from the a VR Ball recoded when the video was made.  Download the three WAV files (ignore the mp3 which contains a piano duet recording from a different session).  Load the three files into your player and put on your headphones.

180628_VR_Ball_12_Binaural.wav is the flush mounted omnis by themselves, which is the same as the audio heard on the video.  Listen to that one first.  In particular, listen to the sound of the snare drum positioned directly in front of the recording position.  Ignore the other instrumentation for the time being.

Next listen to 180628_VR_Ball_34_Figure8_H.wav.  This is the pair of sphere-baffled forward facing figure-8s.  Notice the difference in the snare sound.  There are less early reflections from the side walls and less overall reverb heard on the snare. The figure 8s are directly facing the position of the drummer making the snare sounds more direct. The inverse polarity back lobs of the fig-8's pick up reflections from the back of the room, but far less from the side walls, ceiling and floor where the bi-directional pattern becomes less sensitive. 

Then listen to 180628_VR_Ball_56_Figure8_V.wav. This is the pair of sphere-baffled upward-facing figure-8s.  Notice the difference in the snare sound, now far more distant and diffuse sounding because the least-sensitive portion of the fig-8 pattern is facing the snare drum position (and also facing the sidewalls and the back of the room, reducing sensitivity to the early reflections off them).  The most-sensitive portions of the pattern are facing towards the ceiling and floor, such that what is heard primarily are the reflections off the floor and ceiling along with the essentially the same amount of diffuse room verb as was heard from the forward facing 8's. 

It can be very informative going back a forth a few times between these WAVs comparing how this change of directional pattern effects the sound of the snare drum with all other variables remaining constant.  If we were to matrix the omni and figure-8 file as is done with the KFM360, we'd further increase the ability to isolate or reject the direct sound of the snare by producing virtual cardioid or supercardioid patterns facing directly forward at it (or rearwards away from it) instead of figure-8 patterns that are equally sensitive in both directions.

Of course it's also interesting to compare other aspects such as the difference in pickup of the violin off to one side, and the low-frequency extension difference of the omnis verses the fig-8s.  However, I think the center-forward position of the snare drum makes for a really good example of what this directivity enhancement of adding Mid/Side matrixed bi-directionals to the omnis can do.

I wish they would have recorded the front-of-sphere-mounted cardioid and included that in the file set as well.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline pohaku

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Re: B9Audio microphone discussion
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2018, 07:03:25 PM »
There are pretty positive comments on the blumlein model over on GS.  Sounds like something worth checking out.
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Offline Chuck

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Re: B9Audio microphone discussion
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2018, 03:33:32 PM »
Is there a price sheet somewhere? Just trying to get an idea of how much they cost in US $$.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: B9Audio microphone discussion
« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2018, 04:56:54 PM »
The website shows pricing on the website homepage for the Blumlein stereo mic, the fig-8 and the short gun (currently $800, $500, & $600 USD respectively + shipping).  I found downloadable response graphs for others but don't see pricing on them.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Chuck

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Re: B9Audio microphone discussion
« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2018, 06:34:50 PM »
Thanks Gb!
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Microphones: AKG C 480 B comb-ULS/ CK 61/ CK 63, Sennheiser MKE 2 elements,  Audix M1290-o, Micro capsule active cables w/ Naiant PFA's, Naiant MSH-1O, Naiant AKG Active cables, Church CA-11 (cardioid), (1) Nady SCM-1000 (mod)
Pre-amps: Naiant littlebox, Naiant littlekit v2.0, BM2p+ Edirol UA-5, Church STC-9000
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Recordings on the LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/ChuckM
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