Author Topic: What to do to improve my recordings? (Read 7174 times)

Chaosu · « **on:** January 18, 2009, 10:26:08 PM »

Hello again : )
So after my last questions-topic i bought equimpent and started recording gigs.
I like it, but I'm getting tried of quality issues... this is very demotivating.
I have problems with little 'buzz' (which i think is kind of disortion). My rig is:
SP-CMC-4 > SP-SPSB-10 > Edirol R-09HR
What concerns me is especially audible when recording 'synthetic' bass (like hiphop gig) (but not only) and recording with edirol alone gives better results (tested during Kelly Rowlands gig).
It (to my ears) does not depend on volume (I can be completly deaf after a gig in small club and find recording great, and the other time I can say it wasn't that loud but the disortion will be there on recording).
I'm attaching few samples from different concerts, hope that You'll find out what the problem. Thanks in advance for any help.
http://www.sendspace.com/file/jrqi1t

6stringer · « **Reply #1 on:** January 18, 2009, 11:23:07 PM »

There are undoubtedly others here more qualified than myself to respond, but i'll give it a stab.

I use a very similar configuration: SP-CMC-8 > SP-SPSB-8 > Edirol R-09HR
I've never run into the issue you're having with my rig.

Your last two samples sound distorted but don't show any clipping.
Are you going mic in or line in into the Edirol? Good battery in the power module?
Sounds to me like the distortion is occurring in the mics.

With a good battery at a loud show, you should be able to go mics > batt box > R-09 HR line in without any problem.
What other settings are you using? Do you have AGC and/or Limiter switched off? If you ARE going mic in, is sensitivity switched to low?

Chaosu · « **Reply #2 on:** January 19, 2009, 08:24:11 AM »

All settings are correct, no limiters, low gain and line in. 100% working batetteries (checked many times).
That's the problem, disortion but no clipping. You can hear it in first two too, just much less, little buzz when it's loud.
So You say this may be limitation of my mics!?

kfrinkle · « **Reply #3 on:** January 19, 2009, 09:21:37 AM »

Quote from: Chaosu on January 19, 2009, 08:24:11 AM

All settings are correct, no limiters, low gain and line in. 100% working batetteries (checked many times).
That's the problem, disortion but no clipping. You can hear it in first two too, just much less, little buzz when it's loud.
So You say this may be limitation of my mics!?

You know... I hate to tell you this, but my CMC-8s do something similar in high spl situations. Even after I got them 3-wire modded. They still sound great for lower spl shows. I got tired of this problem as well, and got me some CA-14s cards and CA-ST9100 preamp in the hopes that I can end distortion in high spl situations. I have not had a chance to test them out yet however.

The thing that always bothered me was that many people out there do NOT have problems with the setup you (and I) have. So what gives?

taperwheeler · « **Reply #4 on:** January 19, 2009, 09:50:09 AM »

The prob is likely the mics.

I had similar problems with my sp at setup. Some shows sounded distorted, others not with varying degrees of spl's. I ended up getting the low sens mod and the ca-9100 preamp...am much happier...pulling distortion free recordings.

Liquid Drum · « **Reply #5 on:** January 19, 2009, 01:22:10 PM »

My SP-CMC-8 are tanks. I got them modded anyway and use the CA-9100 to get the gain back and I have stack taped many a time with zero distortion (and without windscreens). I even stacked Opeth 2 times and recordings came out crisp.

nameloc01 · « **Reply #6 on:** January 19, 2009, 02:24:03 PM »

Karl,
It gets to the point, where at some exact specific place at some shows , every mic will clip. If its only happened to you a couple of times (meaning far fewer than more) it may just be that those few instances, at those shows were just too much. If it is happening a lot, you may want to get those mics checked out. Seeing as how you're running them 3w, they should be fine the vast majority of the time.
(Maybe your BB is f'ed up also)

I taped Ministry last summer..ran U853>8532s, those are the AT power modules. They raise the SPL handling on my mics to around 144db before they will tweak. Now, I can tell you, and Andy (junk) can verify the absolutely fucking insane volume that they were playing ..I was able to tell just by how I had to set my levels that these did/do in fact, handle (quite a bit) higher spls than my ps2 (haven't clipped this yet)setup. I had my HI-MD levels completely maxed out and was *barely* hitting midpoint on my levels. Still, when I got home and played it back, there was a very faint hint of clipping. I'm pretty certain, with the volume that show was, it would be very difficult to pull one that wouldn't.
Point was, that show was just a little past that point where my mics could handle it.
If Andy hadn't had an extra set of earplugs, I can safely say I would have walked out...it was that loud.

kfrinkle · « **Reply #7 on:** January 19, 2009, 02:49:25 PM »

Quote from: nameloc01 on January 19, 2009, 02:24:03 PM

Karl,
It gets to the point, where at some exact specific place at some shows , every mic will clip. If its only happened to you a couple of times (meaning far fewer than more) it may just be that those few instances, at those shows were just too much. If it is happening a lot, you may want to get those mics checked out. Seeing as how you're running them 3w, they should be fine the vast majority of the time.
(Maybe your BB is f'ed up also)

I taped Ministry last summer..ran U853>8532s, those are the AT power modules. They raise the SPL handling on my mics to around 144db before they will tweak. Now, I can tell you, and Andy (junk) can verify the absolutely fucking insane volume that they were playing ..I was able to tell just by how I had to set my levels that these did/do in fact, handle (quite a bit) higher spls than my ps2 (haven't clipped this yet)setup. I had my HI-MD levels completely maxed out and was *barely* hitting midpoint on my levels. Still, when I got home and played it back, there was a very faint hint of clipping. I'm pretty certain, with the volume that show was, it would be very difficult to pull one that wouldn't.
Point was, that show was just a little past that point where my mics could handle it.
If Andy hadn't had an extra set of earplugs, I can safely say I would have walked out...it was that loud.

Yeah, I know the potential problems... I taped Ministry several times, have seen them what,every tour from 1996 to 2005? And yeah, in my younger days I used to hug the stacks without earplugs. It is why my ears constantly rung nowadays. Yeah... loud as fuck. Back to the problem at hand... My most recent experience was at a small venue where the sounds was not horribly loud, but loud enough to distort somehow... No way it should have, it wasn't like they were using a national bands touring sound system. It was very annoying. I wonder if my 3-wire modded mics will work with the ST9100? (I have the CA-14s as well, but would be nice to know I could use my modded CMC-8 with it as well).

nameloc01 · « **Reply #8 on:** January 19, 2009, 02:57:28 PM »

You already have the mics modded?

Chaosu · « **Reply #9 on:** January 19, 2009, 03:14:50 PM »

I have no mods... It does happen quite often, actuallly most of the time. There are really few recordings that are disortion free and they were: 1. quiet 2. I was over 100 meters (maybe 150) from stage. Moreover some quiet shows (like Alicia Keys one, posted in samples) are disorted at bass sounds.

I am located in eastern Europe so any upgrade will require double costs required in USA... : (

As far as I know battery is working properly (it drains energy).

What kind of upgrade do You suggest? I know most will say CA mics but will they really work better or I need higher class mics? Also, if I would have to choose new bb I will be looking for something smaller and not necessary a preamp, the one built in Edirols is enough.

One more question, is this possible that mic were flooded and that's why they are working like that? I bet no but I prefer to be sure, I belive they may get a little wet each time I record (because of my hairs).

nameloc01 · « **Reply #10 on:** January 19, 2009, 03:31:18 PM »

Acutally that question was directed at Karl (he said his mic were modded)

You..are running 3wire AT mics on a 2wire battery box setup. While they will "work" this way, moderate to loud levels will cause clipping because the mics are not being powered correctly. AT manufactures those mics with mini-xlr connectors on them, because they are designed to be ran off of phantom power..SP takes the xlrs off and terminates the mics together into an male mini plug, which will then "work" with one of their BBs for low to moderate spls before they will clip. They can put the xlrs back on, this is what they call their "phantom power mod", which is funny, because its not really a "mod" at all, its just putting them back to "stock" condition. (stock except for the cables, AT manufactures them with much longer cables)

So, you can lower the sensitivity of the mics, or run them off of phantom power. But, keeping them as is, you will continue to get clipping here and there.

nameloc01 · « **Reply #11 on:** January 19, 2009, 04:00:37 PM »

Here are the SPL handling specs for your sp-cmc4s:

2wire/ran off of "plug in" power from a recording deck 105db max

2wire ran of of standard 9v BB (like yours). 121-122 db max

2wire "low sens modded" 128-129 db max

3 wire ran with phantom adaptors and outside phantom power supply. 138 db max

3 wire ran off of AT phantom power modules 144 db max (stay away from these)

You can probably see where your problem is.

kfrinkle · « **Reply #12 on:** January 19, 2009, 04:21:19 PM »

Actually, the CMC-8s were 3-wire modded, and I have a 3 wire battery box to go with them. Still get plenty of distortion on loud shows, even when levels are not close to clipping.

nameloc01 · « **Reply #13 on:** January 19, 2009, 04:25:19 PM »

What I was getting at was are they "low-sens" modded..or are you referring to the "phantom power mod" meaning the mini xlrs being put back on ?

still weird in any case.

kfrinkle · « **Reply #14 on:** January 19, 2009, 04:28:44 PM »

Quote from: nameloc01 on January 19, 2009, 04:25:19 PM

What I was getting at was are they "low-sens" modded..or are you referring to the "phantom power mod" meaning the mini xlrs being put back on ?

still weird in any case.

low sens mod terminating in dual 1/8" males, no mini-xlrs....

nameloc01 · « **Reply #15 on:** January 19, 2009, 04:33:34 PM »

New hypothesis:

After many consecutive years of Ministry shows...your hearing is in fact damaged far worse than you realised and the shows were in reality far louder than you think.

kfrinkle · « **Reply #16 on:** January 19, 2009, 05:24:58 PM »

it could be...

Church-Audio · « **Reply #17 on:** January 19, 2009, 06:58:33 PM »

Quote from: nameloc01 on January 19, 2009, 02:24:03 PM

Karl,
It gets to the point, where at some exact specific place at some shows , every mic will clip. If its only happened to you a couple of times (meaning far fewer than more) it may just be that those few instances, at those shows were just too much. If it is happening a lot, you may want to get those mics checked out. Seeing as how you're running them 3w, they should be fine the vast majority of the time.
(Maybe your BB is f'ed up also)

I taped Ministry last summer..ran U853>8532s, those are the AT power modules. They raise the SPL handling on my mics to around 144db before they will tweak. Now, I can tell you, and Andy (junk) can verify the absolutely fucking insane volume that they were playing ..I was able to tell just by how I had to set my levels that these did/do in fact, handle (quite a bit) higher spls than my ps2 (haven't clipped this yet)setup. I had my HI-MD levels completely maxed out and was *barely* hitting midpoint on my levels. Still, when I got home and played it back, there was a very faint hint of clipping. I'm pretty certain, with the volume that show was, it would be very difficult to pull one that wouldn't.
Point was, that show was just a little past that point where my mics could handle it.
If Andy hadn't had an extra set of earplugs, I can safely say I would have walked out...it was that loud.

You have never been to a show where the level was 144 or anywhere near it I can guarantee that. So if you mics were clipping it was much below the 144 db levels that some people claim they can handle. Not every mic will distort at high bass levels trust me I make more then a few that dont. If you were at a show that was 144 db you would be dead or deaf or both

nameloc01 · « **Reply #18 on:** January 19, 2009, 07:05:57 PM »

I meant what I said, and * was not exaggerating* at all. The single loudest show I have ever seen, EVER. Were we sitting in the balcony, and the pressure was actually hurting my chest. Seriously. It was almost like putting an arena size sound system in an old theater.

nameloc01 · « **Reply #19 on:** January 19, 2009, 07:14:31 PM »

Secondly, as I said...I normally run the U853>ps2 setup, and I have done so enough times whereas I can pretty much put the levels pretty damn close to where they need to be before the music even starts..just from knowing the rig, and the venues I frequent. I had the levels completely *maxed* out and was straining to even get mid way on my meter...that was level "30"..for large arena shows, I only run the U853>ps2 on maybe "25". What I'm getting at is, I have never, ever overloaded the ps2 setup recording FOS in arenas, the 8532 setup was maxed (level wise) and barely getting to where it should have been.
Which tells me a few things...
A. The ps2 combo can handle very high spls
B. The 8532 setup can handle even more
C. The *slight* clipping at the Ministry show was a little too much for the 8532s, and would have been clearly too much for the ps2 (which would have been a first)
D. Don't go see Ministry without earplugs. (Not that anyone will..there all through)

Those spl specs are on...or very close, or at least close enough that the order isn't going to be changed.

Church-Audio · « **Reply #20 on:** January 19, 2009, 07:24:52 PM »

Quote from: nameloc01 on January 19, 2009, 07:05:57 PM

I meant what I said, and * was not exaggerating* at all. The single loudest show I have ever seen, EVER. Were we sitting in the balcony, and the pressure was actually hurting my chest. Seriously. It was almost like putting an arena size sound system in an old theater.

I am sure it was loud but it was not 144 db if it was people would be running from the room with blood dripping out of there ears from ruptured eardrums therefor your mics can not handle 144 db! Simple I dont think many know what 120 db sounds like never mind 144 db! Nobody mixes at much over 120 because its really not wise if you unless you want to go to court and lose all of your worldly possessions from a class action lawsuit due to permanent hearing damage. 120 is way WAY to loud at 144db is way above the pain threshold.

nameloc01 · « **Reply #21 on:** January 19, 2009, 07:35:16 PM »

Maybe is was 140..

The point was, it overloaded the 8532s (a little)
Knowing both setups, I can say it would have clearly overloaded the 853>ps2 setup...which, even being 15' in front of a wall of speakers in huge arenas has not been able to do.
So, it was THAT LOUD.
No bullshit...if "Junkyardt" had not had extra earplugs I definitely would have walked out. (which I have never done before)

I can honestly say that they probably were breaking some kind of "code" as to the volume of the show.

nameloc01 · « **Reply #22 on:** January 19, 2009, 07:38:03 PM »

If you send me your address you can test em'.

Church-Audio · « **Reply #23 on:** January 19, 2009, 07:39:04 PM »

Quote from: nameloc01 on January 19, 2009, 07:35:16 PM

Maybe is was 140..

The point was, it overloaded the 8532s (a little)
Knowing both setups, I can say it would have clearly overloaded the 853>ps2 setup...which, even being 15' in front of a wall of speakers in huge arenas has not been able to do.
So, it was THAT LOUD.
No bullshit...if "Junkyardt" had not had extra earplugs I definitely would have walked out. (which I have never done before)

I can honestly say that they probably were breaking some kind of "code" as to the volume of the show.

LOL maybe you dont know what it was with out a calibrated DB meter

But I can tell you it was not anywhere near 144 db

Chaosu · « **Reply #24 on:** January 19, 2009, 07:53:12 PM »

Hey Chris, I would love to buy Your mics if they would do better the problem is that I don't have enough money (due to crysis dolar costs me 170% of what it used to cost when I bought my rig).
One more question. Is it possible that some kind/part of disortion is caused by air pressure coming from speakes and thats why I should use windscreens? (if im not mixing names).

nameloc01 · « **Reply #25 on:** January 19, 2009, 07:55:48 PM »

You're sounding like my wife. That wasn't really the point, the point was to illustrate different ways of powering mics and the performance of each. Had I run the 853s off of "plug-in" they probably would have tweaked in the lobby. The ps2 setup would also have clipped, and clipped sooner than the 8532 setup.
The other point was sometimes its just too loud and there's not much you can do if you're not prepared (power wise).

Chaosu · « **Reply #26 on:** January 19, 2009, 08:05:05 PM »

If above message was directed to me I indeed missed Your point and I still do.
I am sure I never went to gig that was just too loud.
Thanks for illustrating these ways for me, does not help at all but yes, I do know more.
I have read many topics before buying my rig and I was sure I am prepared enough. I have heard many shows and I belive I was satisfied with sound quality. But it turned out that I either have to stand in the back or my mics will do very bad in most cases. I know I'm losing some of mix quality by standing in place where I also have good view, but I understood that I'm losing even more because of my rig limitations. I want to spend my money wisely, if Your wife is acting same You should call Yourself lucky.

nameloc01 · « **Reply #27 on:** January 19, 2009, 08:16:59 PM »

The point was..simply you are powering your mics incorrectly. Sometimes they will be "okay" the way you are using them, but with low to moderate spls, with loud shows they will more than likely clip. I ran AT mics the same way before and had those same problems.
Those mics are designed to be ran with a 3wire phantom power setup (off of a mixing board)..not a "2wire" Soundpros 9v battery box. It simply does not power them correctly. You can call SP and they will tell you this, as will Audio-Technica.

No, that wasn't directed at you..it was at people that were playing word games similiar to my wife (which she was doing right when I was writing that)

Chaosu · « **Reply #28 on:** January 19, 2009, 08:24:16 PM »

Okay, thanks for clarifying. I hope to find a cheap solution to this...

nameloc01 · « **Reply #29 on:** January 19, 2009, 08:28:05 PM »

Good luck.

kfrinkle · « **Reply #30 on:** January 19, 2009, 09:38:36 PM »

Chris Church, you have not been to a Ministry show obviously. The sound levels they pump out actually do hurt. I actually could not hear for over a week once in high school after a Ministry show. I even lost some balance for even longer.

Sunday Driver · « **Reply #31 on:** January 19, 2009, 10:50:36 PM »

Quote from: kfrinkle on January 19, 2009, 04:21:19 PM

Actually, the CMC-8s were 3-wire modded, and I have a 3 wire battery box to go with them. Still get plenty of distortion on loud shows, even when levels are not close to clipping.

This is probably due to the FET of the mic distorting, or poor quality capacitors were used in your 3 wire battery box.

kfrinkle · « **Reply #32 on:** January 19, 2009, 10:54:49 PM »

Either way, fuck em... I am looking forward to use those CA-14's!!!!

Church-Audio · « **Reply #33 on:** January 20, 2009, 11:05:16 AM »

Quote from: kfrinkle on January 19, 2009, 09:38:36 PM

Chris Church, you have not been to a Ministry show obviously. The sound levels they pump out actually do hurt. I actually could not hear for over a week once in high school after a Ministry show. I even lost some balance for even longer.

I dont have to go to one of these shows to know they are not running at 144 db I have been a actual live sound engineer mixing live bands including recording acts and have never heard or seen anyone running these levels and if they were they are fucking morons. And are walking right into a huge lawsuit not to mention the liability issues for the promoter or the venue. 144 DB will damage your hearing permanently in less then I would say 10 minutes. There are only a few systems capable of even running at these levels with out distortion in a club or a theater the only system I can think of would be a Meyer MSL10 MSL5 or a huge array of MSL3. Nobody tours with MSL3 Anymore and you need a freaking forklift to use MSL10 or MSL5! So I would say for a club venue or a theater venue that ain't going to happen. So Like I said I am sure its loud but it ain't 144 db the threshold of pain starts at 120db so its likely your band is running at 120db again not very smart and I would say very responsible of the sound engineer mixing the show if that is true I guess he does not really care about the fans of the band actually being able to hear a concert in the future or a cd of the band for that mater.

Church-Audio · « **Reply #34 on:** January 20, 2009, 11:07:50 AM »

Quote from: Chaosu on January 19, 2009, 07:53:12 PM

Hey Chris, I would love to buy Your mics if they would do better the problem is that I don't have enough money (due to crysis dolar costs me 170% of what it used to cost when I bought my rig).
One more question. Is it possible that some kind/part of disortion is caused by air pressure coming from speakes and thats why I should use windscreens? (if im not mixing names).

You are correct sometimes distortion is caused by air pressure hitting the mic capsule a windscreen will help with that.
You can send me a pm and I am sure we can work something out.