Topic: Vibrapods?

[Genghis Cougar Mellen Khan]

I was reading a review of the Jolida JD100A cd player when I read this:

Tweaks?

I guess I would be shirking my duty if I failed to mention that the JD100A responds quite well to certain basic tweaks. It faithfully mirrors the sonic properties of three different aftermarket power cords, a couple of which cost more than the JD100A itself. It also benefits from sitting on four Vibrapods, sounding slightly firmer in the bass and airier in the highs. Adding the new Bybee Slipstream RCA Magic Bullets (reviewed in February by Max Westler) between the JD100A and the VTL TL7.5 preamplifier produced a dramatically more vivid and immediate presentation. I have no doubt that a bit of tube-rolling could produce some intriguing effects, although I did not experiment with alternative tubes. No doubt my esteemed colleague Dick Olsher could offer some good suggestions.

How could a foot on a digital > analog player have any affect on sound?  Less read errors/dropped samples from isolating it from vibration?.

I could see how they would benefit other some gear/speakers, what's the deal here?  Voo-Doo?

Hopefully Skully and Moulder frequent this forum. 

[Daryan]

NOT voodoo.  I use vibrapods literally under just about everything in my system, as they are cheap and extremely effective.  For added improvement, give the cones in combonation with the pods a try as well.  Isolating any component is going to help dampen vibration, whether it be a cd transport, speakers, amplifiers, etc. 

In my own personal; experience, I heard a dramatically more definaed sound, almost like adding detail.  The image snaps into place if it was heretofore convulted etc.

Give em a try and report back.

Daryan

[jpschust]

think of it kind of like the ride in a car with crappy shocks vs a ride in a lexus

crappy shocks have you bouncing all over the place, but well tuned and well designed shocks keep you riding smoothly along when you get natural bumps in the road.

[Genghis Cougar Mellen Khan]

think of it kind of like the ride in a car with crappy shocks vs a ride in a lexus

crappy shocks have you bouncing all over the place, but well tuned and well designed shocks keep you riding smoothly along when you get natural bumps in the road.

So they'll keep the room from shaking? 

But seriously, how would vibration isolation HELP the performance of an amplifier, I can understand a CD player from read errors, but that's it?

[jpschust]

think of it kind of like the ride in a car with crappy shocks vs a ride in a lexus

crappy shocks have you bouncing all over the place, but well tuned and well designed shocks keep you riding smoothly along when you get natural bumps in the road.

So they'll keep the room from shaking? 

But seriously, how would vibration isolation HELP the performance of an amplifier, I can understand a CD player from read errors, but that's it?

because you are causing interference with the electrical signals.

on amps the influence is less than on transport devices.  fwiw, i have everything on walker points with the exception of my turntable (which has its own points built in) and my phono pre since it is an odd shape and too difficult to put on points.

[BobW]

think of it kind of like the ride in a car with crappy shocks vs a ride in a lexus

crappy shocks have you bouncing all over the place, but well tuned and well designed shocks keep you riding smoothly along when you get natural bumps in the road.

So they'll keep the room from shaking? 

But seriously, how would vibration isolation HELP the performance of an amplifier, I can understand a CD player from read errors, but that's it?

Tube amps are affected by vibration, the effect is called "microphonics" because the tube responds to sounds as if it were a microphone.
Transformers and volume controls can exhibit this effect as well.

On the cheap, "gel" shoe insoles can be cut, doubled or tripled in thickness, and do a decent job of isolating.

If the sound level is high enough, the tube envelopes will be very hard to isolate.
If the amp must be subjected to high SPLs, it may be wiser to go SS.
( FYI, L-MOSFETS softclip much in the same way that a vacuum tube does...)

Tubes are cranky, sometimes expensive, and need TLC, but there is nothing that sounds exactly like them.

[Genghis Cougar Mellen Khan]

think of it kind of like the ride in a car with crappy shocks vs a ride in a lexus

crappy shocks have you bouncing all over the place, but well tuned and well designed shocks keep you riding smoothly along when you get natural bumps in the road.

So they'll keep the room from shaking? 

But seriously, how would vibration isolation HELP the performance of an amplifier, I can understand a CD player from read errors, but that's it?

Tube amps are affected by vibration, the effect is called "microphonics" because the tube responds to sounds as if it were a microphone.
Transformers and volume controls can exhibit this effect as well.

On the cheap, "gel" shoe insoles can be cut, doubled or tripled in thickness, and do a decent job of isolating.

If the sound level is high enough, the tube envelopes will be very hard to isolate.
If the amp must be subjected to high SPLs, it may be wiser to go SS.
( FYI, L-MOSFETS softclip much in the same way that a vacuum tube does...)

Tubes are cranky, sometimes expensive, and need TLC, but there is nothing that sounds exactly like them.

+t's

Thanks for the feedbacks

[zowie]

Tube amps are affected by vibration, the effect is called "microphonics" because the tube responds to sounds as if it were a microphone.

Some tube amps.

I've played around with different types of isolation devices and never heard a difference I could be sure was not just wishful thinking on any of the CDPs, preamps, and amps I've owned.  Differences can be much more obvious on speakers and turntables.

A word to the wise (from one who was not so wise himself):  by the time you're done trying out all kinds of  tweaks you'll read about in Stereophile and TAS that sometimes make small improvements in the sound and sometimes don't, you could have instead paid for a better component(s) and gotten a real upgrade, e.g., a $500 CD player sounds better than a $300 cd player with $200 of chachkas.

[jpschust]

Tube amps are affected by vibration, the effect is called "microphonics" because the tube responds to sounds as if it were a microphone.

Some tube amps.

I've played around with different types of isolation devices and never heard a difference I could be sure was not just wishful thinking on any of the CDPs, preamps, and amps I've owned.  Differences can be much more obvious on speakers and turntables.

A word to the wise (from one who was not so wise himself):  by the time you're done trying out all kinds of  tweaks you'll read about in Stereophile and TAS that sometimes make small improvements in the sound and sometimes don't, you could have instead paid for a better component(s) and gotten a real upgrade, e.g., a $500 CD player sounds better than a $300 cd player with $200 of chachkas.

i absolutely agree

if i had to pick just a few "tweaks" that i think are worthwhile

first would be power supplies, that's the most important to me
second would be good cables- they dont need to be 10k, but something better than monster.
third would be vibration isolation pieces, certainly for transports, amps and pres are more questionable, but most certainly for your phono stage and i really do think cd player. 

[BobW]

All vacuum tubes are subject to the microphonic effect (to varying degrees), hence....

But you're absolutely right, well-designed amps are structural enough to keep these to an absolute minimum.

Some of the absolute best vacuum tube amps use tubes that have horrible susceptibility to microphonics.
The glass envelope of a 300B getting slammed by the output of a sub will produce some sounds that just ain't pretty.

A word to the wise (from one who was not so wise himself):  by the time you're done trying out all kinds of  tweaks you'll read about in Stereophile and TAS that sometimes make small improvements in the sound and sometimes don't, you could have instead paid for a better component(s) and gotten a real upgrade, e.g., a $500 CD player sounds better than a $300 cd player with $200 of chachkas.

QFT

[chitaper]

You really need to get these volume knobs, they kick ass! And less than $500 (can you believe that?)!

[chitaper]

Oh, and don't forget the Clever Little Clock, no system should be without one.





 

[BobW]

Don't forget the Golden Sound Intelligent Chip        +T

[chitaper]

How about $1500 for a 6 foot power cable. The miles and miles of aluminum power lines to your house and the many feet of plain copper wiring to your outlet are no match for the magic of this baby. I hooked one up to my toaster once (just for kicks) and was completely amazed at how light and fluffy, and delicately flavored, my toast was afterwards. 

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

Chitaper, with all these wierd tweaks you are posting, are you suggesting that vibrapods are a scam?

[chitaper]

Chitaper, with all these wierd tweaks you are posting, are you suggesting that vibrapods are a scam?

There is loads and loads of audiophile BS out there. Stereophile magazine will fluff any product that will advertise in their mag, no matter how goofy and silly it is. Same for many stereo review mags or sites.

Now, if someone here can explain to me how a vibrapod will prevent a 0 transforming into a 1, or a 1 into a 0, please do. Or make any measurable change in the signal going to your speakers. Let's just say my BS detector was bouncing around when I read about it.

In fact, they may even qualify for the $1 million challenge. Just be able to tell the difference in a double-blind test, and you get the prize. $1 million can make you the ultimate gear slut!

[pfife]

Have you ever once done a head to head comparison with multiple $1500 power cables? I have. And this was in a system with a dedicated lead from the Edison transformer to his wall receptacle, an ultimately pricy proposition. This is much more efficient than a dedicated circuit from the circuit breaker. This required a second meter and second billing, just for his stereo.
You can hear differences, and some are glaring.

bet his MP3's sounded awesome!!!

  thats really pretty crazy!

[jpschust]

the 0/1 rationale is silly.

it doesn't take into account anything that includes jitter or anything after it passes through your analog stage.

tell you what.  if you want to sometime, come on over and we will put my 2900 on the ground and let people walk around the house while you listen.  then we can put it up on walker points with the center discs properly aligned, with people still shuffling around.  you can hear the difference.  hell even a really good sub will cause significant vibration that should be isolated against.  would i say you need to vibrapod everything?  no.  but certainly your phono stage (god help me if i have to explain this one) and your transports.

[zowie]

Shake a CD player without a buffer.  What happens?  That's right.  The disc skips.  We also know from people's reports on the R-4 that vibrations do effect the 1s and 0s.  With the CD player, there's oversampling and error correction, but it seems reasonable that when there's errors that have to be corrected the sound degrades from when the disc is beng read without errors (or that's the theory anyhow -- I do not have independent knowledge)

And don't forget that CD players (as most people use them) have analogue output stages.

I had the famed and subsequently defamed Optimus 3400 running in my system when they were in vogue around '93.  Vibration damping DID make a difference to the sound of that lightweight plasticy box.  I also followed the prevailing advice and got an external D-A converter for it, and of course had to buy a digital cable.  And then an X-10D (i think it was called) analogue tube buffer, which required extra analogue cables.  Each of these things noticeably improved the sound as promised.  I also put those clip on things on all of the cabling but didn't hear the difference Sam Telig promised.  I passed on getting the custom DC power supply and NOS tube.

Then I sold the three boxes and, for less than all of that stuff had cost, got a Sony ES series CD player that sounded as good or better (a questionr of individual taste), and also had a remote, more functions, was built like a tank, didn't require extra damping, and replaced a mess of cables, power cords, tweeks, and extra boxes.  Wish I upgraded to it in the first place instead of screwing around with tweaks.

As I wrote earlier, I agree that there is a ton of BS out there about tweeks.  Some do work.  But they are not necessarily the most cost-efficient way of upgrade your sound, especially when you factor in the money you throw away trying different stuff before you find the ones that work.

[chitaper]

you can diss em all you want. I can very easily hear a major difference in acoustic music when my mics are on carpet, which easily transmit audience member foot shuffling as a low freq rumble. The vibrapods isolate from that.

What does this have to do with playback? Microphones are designed to record such things, of course it makes sense to isolate them as much as possible. We're talking about playing a cd or dvd here.

[chitaper]

Shake a CD player without a buffer.  What happens?

Shake a cd player with vibrapods on it. What happens? Your point is...?

[jpschust]

Shake a CD player without a buffer.  What happens?

Shake a cd player with vibrapods on it. What happens? Your point is...?

how about a better experiment.  walk around the room with a cd player without any sort of vibration dampening, also, run your bass up high.

now try the same thing with the cd player on vibrapods.

there is a difference.

[chitaper]

how about a better experiment.  walk around the room with a cd player without any sort of vibration dampening, also, run your bass up high.

now try the same thing with the cd player on vibrapods.

there is a difference.

The jitter from any vibrations coming from the ground are infintesimal compared to the jitter generated from the cd player itself. Unless, perhaps, you live next to a busy freight train line.

[pfife]

you can diss em all you want. I can very easily hear a major difference in acoustic music when my mics are on carpet, which easily transmit audience member foot shuffling as a low freq rumble. The vibrapods isolate from that.

What does this have to do with playback? Microphones are designed to record such things, of course it makes sense to isolate them as much as possible. We're talking about playing a cd or dvd here.

Look at what the thread title is.

Are we really talking about cd players and dvd players, or are we talking about vibrapods?

f skalinders opinion of vibrapods

[jpschust]

how about a better experiment.  walk around the room with a cd player without any sort of vibration dampening, also, run your bass up high.

now try the same thing with the cd player on vibrapods.

there is a difference.

The jitter from any vibrations coming from the ground are infintesimal compared to the jitter generated from the cd player itself. Unless, perhaps, you live next to a busy freight train line.

ok listen, if you are gonig to doubt without trying, it's not my system, so whatever. 

but if you are interested in trying, come on down to my place any day and we will do a side by side test.

otherwise i don't know what to tell you.

[pfife]

how about a better experiment.  walk around the room with a cd player without any sort of vibration dampening, also, run your bass up high.

now try the same thing with the cd player on vibrapods.

there is a difference.

The jitter from any vibrations coming from the ground are infintesimal compared to the jitter generated from the cd player itself. Unless, perhaps, you live next to a busy freight train line.

ok listen, if you are gonig to doubt without trying, it's not my system, so whatever. 

but if you are interested in trying, come on down to my place any day and we will do a side by side test.

otherwise i don't know what to tell you.

f belmontradiators opinon of vibrapods

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

there is actually a very large body of anecdotal evidence to support the use of coupling and isolation in playback systems.  Vibrapods are just one possible way to achieve isolation. Wander over to AudioAsylum and do some searches on the topic.  There is a great deal of discussion regarding coupling and isolation schemes and there is a lot of discussion about why coupling and isolation have their effects on different gear.

My own experience with this is using carbon fiber cones beneath my tube amp and preamp.  There was a not so subtle change in the characteristic of the sound.  The sound went from smooth to brittle and when I removed the cones the sound returned to it's previous smoothness.  That wasn't the result I hoped for but it was an audible result. 

[chitaper]

Look at what the thread title is.

Are we really talking about cd players and dvd players, or are we talking about vibrapods?

Moke, I would never claim (nor would anyone else here) vibrations from a crowded floor aren't going to show up in a recording from microphones on a stand on said floor. I'm sure vibrapods would do fine under a mic stand.

Hey, they're only $25, so it's not going to bust any budgets if they buy vibrapods. I just don't think they'd make much of a difference in the sound.

[chitaper]

ok listen, if you are gonig to doubt without trying, it's not my system, so whatever. 

but if you are interested in trying, come on down to my place any day and we will do a side by side test.

otherwise i don't know what to tell you.

Oops, forgot who I was replying to there. jpschst, where are you located?

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

with a bag of leadshot on top.

I used a 10lb iron plate on top of my CDRW700 and it tighten the image a little more.  I think a stamped chassis will tend to resonate.

[pickmando]

I use a 4960 in my playback and don't use any dampening devices - can you comment further on the difference in sound you realized, Moke?

[Nick Culbreth]

don't "think", try and know.

Solid advice Moke.  I'm not sure how anyone can come in and claim something is snake oil without having used said device.

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

Seach the archive.  I think D did something to dampen his toshiba chassis and the transport mechanism.   Also, there are several 4960 tweeker sites that describe this in detail.   

[jpschust]

ok listen, if you are gonig to doubt without trying, it's not my system, so whatever. 

but if you are interested in trying, come on down to my place any day and we will do a side by side test.

otherwise i don't know what to tell you.

Oops, forgot who I was replying to there. jpschst, where are you located?

DC area.

[jpschust]

I use a 4960 in my playback and don't use any dampening devices - can you comment further on the difference in sound you realized, Moke?

this is really meant as no offense, but with a 4960 you'd do yourself a favor to just buy a better transport rather than throw a ton of money into it.

[Daryan]

I use a 4960 in my playback and don't use any dampening devices - can you comment further on the difference in sound you realized, Moke?

this is really meant as no offense, but with a 4960 you'd do yourself a favor to just buy a better transport rather than throw a ton of money into it.

It's a better transport than you think J, but by no means top of the line.  To dampen, just get some vinyl floor tile from hd/etc with the rubber bottom and the sticky stuff.  Damp the heck out of the inside lid of the case, the exposed surfaces underneath, as well as the plastic POS transport mechanism.  This should help.

Chi taper...

If you aren't going to try the vibrapods, then please stop posting here in this thread about how they don't work.  That's like me telling someone about running their gear but never having used any of it.  There is a ton of BS in audiophilia, but vibration devices are not one of them, and the results can and have been measured with a plastic tape accelerometer.  Power4 chords make an audible differnce too for that matter, though I think the law of dminishing returns applies even more in this hobby. 

I think everyone with stand mounted speakers should put vibrapods under them...then you can tell me they don't make a difference