Topic: Preamp for loud shows?

[ozzyzak]

I've been looking around quite a bit, but haven't quite found the answers to the questions I still have.  Any help would be most appreciated.

Let's pretend for a minute that the only shows I will EVER be recording are loud shows.  Metal and hard rock, that kinda stuff.  Is there any advantage at all for me to have a preamp?  Would having my R-09's recording levels lower and the preamp cranked make it cleaner?  I'm asking because I currently have a battery box, and I don't want to buy a preamp if I don't need one. 

Basically, I can see that some day I may want to record something that's not as loud and a preamp would probably come in handy.  But assuming everything in the last post, what (if any) advantage could a pre provide?

thanks!

[nameloc01]

I say no. The music is already loud..while a pre would boost your music levels it would also boost unwanted noise (crowd, yourself..ect.) once that gets on your recording youre screwed.

[bluntforcetrauma]

all noise ( in this case crowd,)  wheather from a pre or batt box is linearly extrapolated. The more power the more mic pic up regardless of source.  The more power getting to the mics in their ability to capture the sound via a pre amp seams to  capture a fuller sonic dynamic range in the vertical displacement.   pre amp seems to use more of the mics capability to pick up a broader higher range.  Currrently running the sonosax sx-m2 pre amp and it appears the more i use that as my gain instead of say the edirol r-09 gain the brighter the musical capture.  This is for loud concerts.  I have used the pre amp say set for somewhere in the 20db to 30 db range with the edirol r-09 input on say level 8-15 depending on how close or far away from the sound source.  The closer to the sound source you would need less of mic power to " go out" and grab the music.

[DSatz]

bluntforcetrauma, a preamp basically just amplifies the signals from a pair of microphones. Ideally it has no sonic effect at all--neither on "dynamics," nor on "vertical displacement," "picking up a broader higher range," the brightness of the "musical capture" nor any other such thing.

A preamp that has any such effects should be regarded as broken in my opinion--or at least as a severe liability for live recording purposes. It's more like a preamp plus an effects box, where the effects box has a mind of its own and won't let you bypass the effect or turn it down--which is simply bad design.

If your microphones put out only 25 mV when the music is at its loudest, and your recorder works best with 750 mV coming in, you would use a preamp to raise the 25 mV to 750 mV for that reason. It's purely technical. If your microphones put out 10 mV and your recorder does just fine with 10 mV coming in, don't use a preamp. That's what it mainly comes down to.

A preamp (or preamp stage of a recorder) that has audible coloration is usually an unwise choice for live recording. When you think about it, there can never be an effect that's always an improvement no matter what the original signal was. If there ever was such a thing, then after making the live recording you'd want to run the recording through the thing again--and then again, and again and again; the sound would always keep getting better and better each time. If you find me a circuit like that, I'll change my opinion.

But until then, I'll insist that preamps for live recording should be audibly transparent, and any flavoring or coloring (be it EQ or compression or reverb or distortion or fancy tricks with stereo imaging) should be added separately--afterward, in the comfort of your home or studio--so that you can actually listen to the effect and adjust it to suit your tastes and purposes.

When you really listen, surprisingly often you will end up choosing to add exactly nothing. I'm amazed at how often I set out to improve a recording with signal processing and then after spending half an hour tinkering with various settings, I compare it to the original and end up choosing to leave it the hell alone, because it may not sound perfect, but the sound as actually recorded has a kind of truth to it that I prefer.

--best regards

[it-goes-to-eleven]

I'm amazed at how often I set out to improve a recording with signal processing and then after spending half an hour tinkering with various settings, I compare it to the original and end up choosing to leave it the hell alone, because it may not sound perfect, but the sound as actually recorded has a kind of truth to it that I prefer.

Same here. Though what sounds best in the car at highway noise levels is always different than what I prefer on my home system, etc. I believe many digital manipulations introduce unpleasant artifacts that can be fatiguing or just annoying.. They can also muck up aspects of the soundstage.  None of that matters much in the car or on an ipod.

[rastasean]

What is a reason people use a pre-amp for shows then? Is this when it is a flute hundreds of amplified feet away? But then again, it would amplify everything around you, too. I can understand the reason if you're in nature and want to record sound but why are people so interested on spending a lot of money on amps?

[Roving Sign]

What is a reason people use a pre-amp for shows then? Is this when it is a flute hundreds of amplified feet away? But then again, it would amplify everything around you, too. I can understand the reason if you're in nature and want to record sound but why are people so interested on spending a lot of money on amps?

Just so you understand - you ARE using a preamp - it just happens to be built into your device. However  - built-in preamps generally, suck...some "do the job" The R-9 is amongst the few that can take a loud signal without brickwalling...and sounds "passable"

Using a seperate gives you better electronics, better metering, finer grain controls...all of which help make a better recording.

And - taking the Satz post and standing it on its head a bit - Some of us like the coloration various pres give the music - I really like my dbx386 tube preamp - even though it colors the heck out of the sound and gives away a bit of detail...

[Roving Sign]

advantage at all for me to have a preamp?  Would having my R-09's recording levels lower and the preamp cranked make it cleaner? 

The preamps job is to make a mic level signal into a line level signal.  Ideally, you should get your all of your gain in the preamp - and simply have the recorder set to "unity" gain...(no gain added or subtracted)

[Jammin72]

I actually used to skip a preamp for this reason. (Though technically the circuits in the mics... well that's another story)

Some of the better tapes I made were AKG481->Power Supply(Denecke PS2)->Line In Mod SBM-1

Extremely open and transparent.

[ozzyzak]

Thanks to everyone for the replies.  These were very helpful and gave me a much better idea of what's going on with the preamps and such.

[Church-Audio]

What is a reason people use a pre-amp for shows then? Is this when it is a flute hundreds of amplified feet away? But then again, it would amplify everything around you, too. I can understand the reason if you're in nature and want to record sound but why are people so interested on spending a lot of money on amps?

I am a bit biased on this point.. But a good preamp can improve the sound of your recordings.. A good preamp adds flavor to the sound.. Thats why some people still want to spend $4k on a vintage Neve preamp.. Its very subjective, so do you need a preamp all the time.. No does a good preamp provide a good interface between a recorder and a pair of mics yes if its designed properly a good preamp will lower you noise floor.. And provide you with power to power your mics properly and a good impedance match for your recorders front end. It will allow you to have more gain with less noise.. Is a lot of gain necessary? in most cases no.. That's why some of my preamps I make only have 20 db of gain because in an amplified situation thats often more then enough. Everyone here has different opinions about preamps. This is my opinion but again I am biased because I make preamps. But most of my customers would agree that a preamp does make a difference. I am not trying to sell snake oil here.. Just facts. Again I must stress that there are situations where you dont need one. But here is a major issue I have. When your going to tape a show you have never been to before how do you know you dont need a preamp? I think its better to have one on hand then to be with out.



Chris

[rastasean]

What is a reason people use a pre-amp for shows then? Is this when it is a flute hundreds of amplified feet away? But then again, it would amplify everything around you, too. I can understand the reason if you're in nature and want to record sound but why are people so interested on spending a lot of money on amps?

I am a bit biased on this point.. But a good preamp can improve the sound of your recordings.. A good preamp adds flavor to the sound.. Thats why some people still want to spend $4k on a vintage Neve preamp.. Its very subjective, so do you need a preamp all the time.. No does a good preamp provide a good interface between a recorder and a pair of mics yes if its designed properly a good preamp will lower you noise floor.. And provide you with power to power your mics properly and a good impedance match for your recorders front end. It will allow you to have more gain with less noise.. Is a lot of gain necessary? in most cases no.. That's why some of my preamps I make only have 20 db of gain because in an amplified situation thats often more then enough. Everyone here has different opinions about preamps. This is my opinion but again I am biased because I make preamps. But most of my customers would agree that a preamp does make a difference. I am not trying to sell snake oil here.. Just facts. Again I must stress that there are situations where you dont need one. But here is a major issue I have. When your going to tape a show you have never been to before how do you know you dont need a preamp? I think its better to have one on hand then to be with out.



Chris

Thanks for this reply. After recording a show last night, I can understand how a pre-amp would be a good idea from time-to-time as opposed to using the built-in pre-amp.

I do not think you are more biased than anyone else, you have your opinions. Your products sell themselves and I am very interested in buying you card mics very soon. How would I go about contacting you when I am ready for the purchase?

thanks,
rastasean

[bluntforcetrauma]

bluntforcetrauma, a preamp basically just amplifies the signals from a pair of microphones. Ideally it has no sonic effect at all--neither on "dynamics," nor on "vertical displacement," "picking up a broader higher range," the brightness of the "musical capture" nor any other such thing.

A preamp that has any such effects should be regarded as broken in my opinion--or at least as a severe liability for live recording purposes. It's more like a preamp plus an effects box, where the effects box has a mind of its own and won't let you bypass the effect or turn it down--which is simply bad design.

If your microphones put out only 25 mV when the music is at its loudest, and your recorder works best with 750 mV coming in, you would use a preamp to raise the 25 mV to 750 mV for that reason. It's purely technical. If your microphones put out 10 mV and your recorder does just fine with 10 mV coming in, don't use a preamp. That's what it mainly comes down to.

A preamp (or preamp stage of a recorder) that has audible coloration is usually an unwise choice for live recording. When you think about it, there can never be an effect that's always an improvement no matter what the original signal was. If there ever was such a thing, then after making the live recording you'd want to run the recording through the thing again--and then again, and again and again; the sound would always keep getting better and better each time. If you find me a circuit like that, I'll change my opinion.

But until then, I'll insist that preamps for live recording should be audibly transparent, and any flavoring or coloring (be it EQ or compression or reverb or distortion or fancy tricks with stereo imaging) should be added separately--afterward, in the comfort of your home or studio--so that you can actually listen to the effect and adjust it to suit your tastes and purposes.

When you really listen, surprisingly often you will end up choosing to add exactly nothing. I'm amazed at how often I set out to improve a recording with signal processing and then after spending half an hour tinkering with various settings, I compare it to the original and end up choosing to leave it the hell alone, because it may not sound perfect, but the sound as actually recorded has a kind of truth to it that I prefer.

--best regards

I think what i was trying to say is that a pre amp will help me get closer to 0db transparently.

Thanks so much

[nameloc01]

So, it seems that there is no concrete proof that there is any real improvememt in the sound quality with a pre ..but i'd bet if you dropped a few k. on one, you'd at least think there was an improvement. 

[Church-Audio]

So, it seems that there is no concrete proof that there is any real improvememt in the sound quality with a pre ..but i'd bet if you dropped a few k. on one, you'd at least think there was an improvement. 

I just have one thing to say I love your avitar And if I could make a bra preamp and be directly involved in fitting it. I would...