Topic: 4 channel recorders question...

[Roving Sign]

To answer the original question.....

Yes you can record four individual tracks OR two stereo pairs.   Use your favorite audio editor with either format and you're good to go.  I very much prefer recording four individual tracks.

One of the greatest benefits I have found in four channel recording with one device is the ease in which I can line things up in post.  Having both stereo pairs recorded on the same clock makes lining things up to account for any delay super easy.


Lots of threads on delay and all forms of it.  Just search.

Dito for me and recording four track w/ my R4. And for the record I have only had delay issues one time running matrix out side where I was about 45' away from the stage uphill. As long as you are around 20'-25' you should be alright w/o any delay. I use Vegas to render my files together and to take care of delay all you have to do is shrink or expand the two audience tracks. I found it easier to shrink the aud tracks to fit the SDB but when you get it right you will know by the reverb. I like the fact that I can tweak all the mono files in post edit so I can fine tune into some thing if I have to. Not sure about the R44 but the R4 the highest sample rate at 4 x mono is 48khz at 24 bit. I forgot to mention that easyjim was my mentor for recording 4 x mono and helped anwer millions ?'s I had and showed me the pluses on 4x.
Peace

Now - that makes NO sense to me...you have clock sync - what does "shrinking" accomplish...

Its all about the relative position of the files...

[rowjimmytour]

To answer the original question.....

Yes you can record four individual tracks OR two stereo pairs.   Use your favorite audio editor with either format and you're good to go.  I very much prefer recording four individual tracks.

One of the greatest benefits I have found in four channel recording with one device is the ease in which I can line things up in post.  Having both stereo pairs recorded on the same clock makes lining things up to account for any delay super easy.


Lots of threads on delay and all forms of it.  Just search.

Dito for me and recording four track w/ my R4. And for the record I have only had delay issues one time running matrix out side where I was about 45' away from the stage uphill. As long as you are around 20'-25' you should be alright w/o any delay. I use Vegas to render my files together and to take care of delay all you have to do is shrink or expand the two audience tracks. I found it easier to shrink the aud tracks to fit the SDB but when you get it right you will know by the reverb. I like the fact that I can tweak all the mono files in post edit so I can fine tune into some thing if I have to. Not sure about the R44 but the R4 the highest sample rate at 4 x mono is 48khz at 24 bit. I forgot to mention that easyjim was my mentor for recording 4 x mono and helped anwer millions ?'s I had and showed me the pluses on 4x.
Peace

Now - that makes NO sense to me...you have clock sync - what does "shrinking" accomplish...

Its all about the relative position of the files...

Shrinking might not be the right word really but using Vegas 7 I think you right click at the end of the file and you go left or right w/ cursor +/- ms for delay and it kinda shrinks the time clock so both sources match.
PEace

[gtalife]

I do a lot of SBD/AUD Matrix recordings and own a R-4, i like to run 2x Stereo, compared 4x mono, and trim the audience source 1 tenth of a sec per foot.

[Roving Sign]

I do a lot of SBD/AUD Matrix recordings and own a R-4, i like to run 2x Stereo, compared 4x mono, and trim the audience source 1 tenth of a sec per foot.

Do you actually sit there and compute this stuff? - or just line them up until they sound good?

[gtalife]

I do a lot of SBD/AUD Matrix recordings and own a R-4, i like to run 2x Stereo, compared 4x mono, and trim the audience source 1 tenth of a sec per foot.

Do you actually sit there and compute this stuff? - or just line them up until they sound good?

I multitrack both sources using Adobe Audition, after doing countless Matrix's i still pin point a matching up points. on both sources (snare drum hit, etc) and it ends up .10 sec per foot. Pretty much the whole process is easy after you get used to doing it, the tricky part is making the mix of the 2 sources sound the way you like it, i.e...is there need for some EQ on each source, does it sound better with more SBD than audience etc..etc.
Have fun!

[Todd R]

Something seems way wrong with this -- the speed of sound is roughly 1ms/foot, not 100ms/ft (0.1 sec per foot).   

[gtalife]

Something seems way wrong with this -- the speed of sound is roughly 1ms/foot, not 100ms/ft (0.1 sec per foot).   

sorry, you are right....thanks for the correction.

[stevetoney]

Something seems way wrong with this -- the speed of sound is roughly 1ms/foot, not 100ms/ft (0.1 sec per foot).   

sorry, you are right....thanks for the correction.

Yup, that figures right about with my calculation that I did earlier today where I got .03 second delay where the original poster was saying he sets mics up 10-12 meters back.  That's 30 to 35 feet or so...times .001 sec/foot is around 0.03 secs.

[easy jim]

Now - that makes NO sense to me...you have clock sync - what does "shrinking" accomplish...

Its all about the relative position of the files...

I think there may be some confusion here about the difference between two different things - delay and drift.  Jim is referring to drift and you are referring to delay.

Delay refers to the the difference in the amount of time a distinct audio event/snapshot (for instance a snare hit) is captured by two distinct sources.  A direct feed/SBD source will be 'immediate' realtively-speaking by comparison to a source captured by ambient mics, whether on stage or out in the room.  It is the difference in time between the sound waves reaching the direct mics feeding the mixing console and the sound waves reaching your ambient pair - a difference that should approximate ~ 1 milisecond per foot of distance that is between the ambient mics and the sound source.  When distinct sources like a SBD and an AUD feed are clock-sync'ed in a 4 track recorder or multitrack set-up, you will still have to correct for delay but will have no drift.

Drift, in contrast to delay, refers to the difference between two distinct recorders' internal clocks' rendering of time.  Unless two distinct recorders are pro units with the ability to link by wordclock or by locking/syncing to the time information provided by a digital feed from some other 'master clock' device like an outboard A>D converter, etc., you will over the course of a recording have a slight difference between one recorder's rendering of, for instance, 1:25:36.97 and the other recorder's rendering of 1:25:36.97  

Drift between the clocks of two separate digital recorders - even of the exact model/type - will be constant if they are not clock-synced in some way, and drift thus increases in a direct relationship with an increase in the length of recording time.  So, when you find and line the source up at a sync point (like a snare hit) at the beginning of two distinct sources that were not clock-synced, and then you find a sync point at the end of the recording, you will find that one source is off from the other by some small amount that will make a mix of two disparate recordings lined up at the beginning fall out of sync by the end.  You have to fix this drift by time-scaling (essentially a time-shrink or expand process) one of the two sources to match it to the other.  It may also be done, as some do in Wavelab, by chopping up one source and continually re-aligning it at multiple time intervals through the length of the recording, but that is both much more cumbersome AND much less accurate because there will still be some drift apparent (and possibly audible) at the end of each time interval before the following new sync point.

[Roving Sign]

Now - that makes NO sense to me...you have clock sync - what does "shrinking" accomplish...

Its all about the relative position of the files...

I think there may be some confusion here about the difference between two different things - delay and drift.  Jim is referring to drift and you are referring to delay.

Delay refers to the the difference in the amount of time a distinct audio event/snapshot (for instance a snare hit) is captured by two distinct sources.  A direct feed/SBD source will be 'immediate' realtively-speaking by comparison to a source captured by ambient mics, whether on stage or out in the room.  It is the difference in time between the sound waves reaching the direct mics feeding the mixing console and the sound waves reaching your ambient pair - a difference that should approximate ~ 1 milisecond per foot of distance that is between the ambient mics and the sound source.  When distinct sources like a SBD and an AUD feed are clock-sync'ed in a 4 track recorder or multitrack set-up, you will still have to correct for delay but will have no drift.

Drift, in contrast to delay, refers to the difference between two distinct recorders' internal clocks' rendering of time.  Unless two distinct recorders are pro units with the ability to link by wordclock or by locking/syncing to the time information provided by a digital feed from some other 'master clock' device like an outboard A>D converter, etc., you will over the course of a recording have a slight difference between one recorder's rendering of, for instance, 1:25:36.97 and the other recorder's rendering of 1:25:36.97 

Drift between the clocks of two separate digital recorders - even of the exact model/type - will be constant if they are not clock-synced in some way, and drift thus increases in a direct relationship with an increase in the length of recording time.  So, when you find and line the source up at a sync point (like a snare hit) at the beginning of two distinct sources that were not clock-synced, and then you find a sync point at the end of the recording, you will find that one source is off from the other by some small amount that will make a mix of two disparate recordings lined up at the beginning fall out of sync by the end.  You have to fix this drift by time-scaling (essentially a time-shrink or expand process) one of the two sources to match it to the other.  It may also be done, as some do in Wavelab, by chopping up one source and continually re-aligning it at multiple time intervals through the length of the recording, but that is both much more cumbersome AND much less accurate because there will still be some drift apparent (and possibly audible) at the end of each time interval before the following new sync point.

Got that - pretty sure he referenced an R4 - so they are inherently clock synced tracks - so why the need to "shrink"?

[easy jim]

Got that - pretty sure he referenced an R4 - so they are inherently clock synced tracks - so why the need to "shrink"?

Dito for me and recording four track w/ my R4. And for the record I have only had delay issues one time running matrix out side where I was about 45' away from the stage uphill. As long as you are around 20'-25' you should be alright w/o any delay. I use Vegas to render my files together and to take care of delay all you have to do is shrink or expand the two audience tracks. I found it easier to shrink the aud tracks to fit the SDB but when you get it right you will know by the reverb.

^ OK, I see what you mean now Roving Sign.  Doh...

So, Jim, were you using your R-4 or two separate recorders that night where you were ~ 45' away and uphill, and you ended shrinking the AUD source to mix it w/ the SBD? 

I think Roving Sign is pointing out that, theoretically, if it was the R-4 and not 2 separate recorders, the tracks were already sycned and there should not have been a need to correct drift by shrinking a track.

[Teen Wolf Blitzer]

If you run the mics onstage there is no delay.   

OFOTD.  You can't run 2 x stereo with the 744.     But you can on a R4/R44.  But I'm sure you knew that.     You'd think SD could implement that in a firmware upgrade.      It's always bugged me.

But all I do when I have a far mic source and a board is pan the mics to the left in my earphones and the board in the right.  Even out the gain so they roughly match and then listen.  It becomes real easy to slide the board foward till it tits on.  When the band talks or an intro lick is the best place to tell.  I don't bother with the math. 

[rowjimmytour]

Got that - pretty sure he referenced an R4 - so they are inherently clock synced tracks - so why the need to "shrink"?

Dito for me and recording four track w/ my R4. And for the record I have only had delay issues one time running matrix out side where I was about 45' away from the stage uphill. As long as you are around 20'-25' you should be alright w/o any delay. I use Vegas to render my files together and to take care of delay all you have to do is shrink or expand the two audience tracks. I found it easier to shrink the aud tracks to fit the SDB but when you get it right you will know by the reverb.

^ OK, I see what you mean now Roving Sign.  Doh...

So, Jim, were you using your R-4 or two separate recorders that night where you were ~ 45' away and uphill, and you ended shrinking the AUD source to mix it w/ the SBD? 

I think Roving Sign is pointing out that, theoretically, if it was the R-4 and not 2 separate recorders, the tracks were already sycned and there should not have been a need to correct drift by shrinking a track.

I was using only my r4 and yes I was talking about drift and not delay. I followed these instructions below to correct the show w/ Vegas.

Now, go to the end of your new audio track and compare it visually to your original track.  Hopefully you should see some similar points in each and be able to tell how far off they are.  If your original audio track is distorted too bad or AGC was used it may be almost square.  Use your ears in that case.  Play the tracks together and you should be able to tell if your new track is ahead or behind your original.  You may have to adjust the track volume of one or the other to help out.  Just make sure you set the new audio track back to 0 before you render.  Go to the end of the new audio track and hold your mouse cursor right over the end.  Hold down the CTRL key and you'll see the "~" symbol appear.  Keep that CTRL key held down and move your mouse to the left or right.  You are now stretching or shrinking your audio track in real time.  Move it in small increments and listen and compare your two tracks visually each time.  You might have to zoom in and move in extremely small increments to get it right.  Once you're done both tracks should sound like one when played together. 

http://www.archive.org/details/bts2008-05-03.bts2008-05-03matrix.flac16

[OFOTD]

OFOTD.  You can't run 2 x stereo with the 744.     But you can on a R4/R44.  But I'm sure you knew that.     You'd think SD could implement that in a firmware upgrade.      It's always bugged me.

Yup I knew that.  I was speaking from my R4 / R4 Pro experience.  

I agree with a SD firmware solution.  One of a couple things I wish SD would address.  

[Roving Sign]

Got that - pretty sure he referenced an R4 - so they are inherently clock synced tracks - so why the need to "shrink"?

Dito for me and recording four track w/ my R4. And for the record I have only had delay issues one time running matrix out side where I was about 45' away from the stage uphill. As long as you are around 20'-25' you should be alright w/o any delay. I use Vegas to render my files together and to take care of delay all you have to do is shrink or expand the two audience tracks. I found it easier to shrink the aud tracks to fit the SDB but when you get it right you will know by the reverb.

^ OK, I see what you mean now Roving Sign.  Doh...

So, Jim, were you using your R-4 or two separate recorders that night where you were ~ 45' away and uphill, and you ended shrinking the AUD source to mix it w/ the SBD? 

I think Roving Sign is pointing out that, theoretically, if it was the R-4 and not 2 separate recorders, the tracks were already sycned and there should not have been a need to correct drift by shrinking a track.

I was using only my r4 and yes I was talking about drift and not delay. I followed these instructions below to correct the show w/ Vegas.

Now, go to the end of your new audio track and compare it visually to your original track.  Hopefully you should see some similar points in each and be able to tell how far off they are.  If your original audio track is distorted too bad or AGC was used it may be almost square.  Use your ears in that case.  Play the tracks together and you should be able to tell if your new track is ahead or behind your original.  You may have to adjust the track volume of one or the other to help out.  Just make sure you set the new audio track back to 0 before you render.  Go to the end of the new audio track and hold your mouse cursor right over the end.  Hold down the CTRL key and you'll see the "~" symbol appear.  Keep that CTRL key held down and move your mouse to the left or right.  You are now stretching or shrinking your audio track in real time.  Move it in small increments and listen and compare your two tracks visually each time.  You might have to zoom in and move in extremely small increments to get it right.  Once you're done both tracks should sound like one when played together. 

http://www.archive.org/details/bts2008-05-03.bts2008-05-03matrix.flac16

But how can there be any drift?

you have an R4 - thats the whole point of that device...4 clock synced tracks...