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Author Topic: 722 First Impressions  (Read 25170 times)

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Offline MattD

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Re: 722 First Impressions
« Reply #30 on: April 28, 2005, 11:50:27 AM »
Nick (or anyone who does so, for that matter) - can you help us understand why you're running more conservative levels at 24-bit?

In an most open and stealth taping situations, I agree with you, Brian. I can understand being conservative in a stealth situation where you absolutely cannot check levels (security guard's position is in the aisle next to you, or something). I'd rather peak around -20 to -10 and boost later than attempt to come as close to zero as possible.

Mathematically, there is no reason to run conservatively. Even if you're saying you can boost later and still have more resolution than a 16-bit recording, yes, that's true, but in boosting, you also raise the noise floor (you're adding gain to the noise, too). I want to have a good 24-bit recording, not just a recording that's "better than a 16-bit recording."
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Offline Brian

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Re: 722 First Impressions
« Reply #31 on: April 28, 2005, 11:51:03 AM »
damn marketing departments are evil i tell ya! i hear the same thing goes for digital cameras in terms of pixels. I've heard that the true pixel spec of the camera is really only like half to 2/3rd's of what is advertised.

"they lie. they lie right to your face" -e. cartman ;)

it depends on the type of sensor, you do need to investigate exactly what they are selling. in some cameras, you can have multiple sensors per pixel site and not all are used in each image, but i'm not sure exactly the mechanism. this is not true of all camera designs. my 20d (single-plate CMOS sensor) gets the full 8.2 megapixel resolution (3520 x 2344 pixels).

right on.  I knew you or one of the other photo guys would chime in. thanks! +T

edit:  in 12 hrs. that is ;)
« Last Edit: April 28, 2005, 11:53:06 AM by STL-Taper »

Offline Brian

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Re: 722 First Impressions
« Reply #32 on: April 28, 2005, 11:52:33 AM »
Nick (or anyone who does so, for that matter) - can you help us understand why you're running more conservative levels at 24-bit?

In an most open and stealth taping situations, I agree with you, Brian. I can understand being conservative in a stealth situation where you absolutely cannot check levels (security guard's position is in the aisle next to you, or something). I'd rather peak around -20 to -10 and boost later than attempt to come as close to zero as possible.

Mathematically, there is no reason to run conservatively. Even if you're saying you can boost later and still have more resolution than a 16-bit recording, yes, that's true, but in boosting, you also raise the noise floor (you're adding gain to the noise, too). I want to have a good 24-bit recording, not just a recording that's "better than a 16-bit recording."

with good compression techniques you won't be raising the noise floor.  with normalizing, yes. you will indeed be raising the noise floor.  this is why i opt for slight compression over straight normalization.

Offline nickgregory

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Re: 722 First Impressions
« Reply #33 on: April 28, 2005, 12:03:17 PM »
Nick (or anyone who does so, for that matter) - can you help us understand why you're running more conservative levels at 24-bit?

right now my concern is that since the box is all in one, and I have not yet pushed the preamp, I am conservative until I get a good confidence level on how far I can push the pre in this box.....that is really all...a comfort level really

Offline Brian

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Re: 722 First Impressions
« Reply #34 on: April 28, 2005, 12:05:02 PM »
c'mon nick, don't be a wuss.  push that mother! 8)

Offline wboswell

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Re: 722 First Impressions
« Reply #35 on: April 28, 2005, 12:09:21 PM »
Alot depends on what and where you are listening.  I like running the levels hot, and overs are fine with me, but I don't like slamming overs during loud passages and having the wave forms looking like a brick.  I'm starting to get a better feel for the metering on the box, but that's mainly due to the fact that I've been running the V3 in front of it...  I have a good grasp of what those levels are telling me.

Personally, I like the linked controls.  I've found that the balance works great and once you get that set, you only have one control to worry about as the show goes on.  You fine tune the balance once, which seems to stay more consistant than the spl during the show, and ride the gain if adjustments need to be made.


marc0789

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Re: 722 First Impressions
« Reply #36 on: April 28, 2005, 12:17:53 PM »


edit: and yes that means our dat recordings are more like 14.5 bit recordings ;)
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not if you slam zeroes all the time. ;)

Offline Brian

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Re: 722 First Impressions
« Reply #37 on: April 28, 2005, 12:27:58 PM »


edit: and yes that means our dat recordings are more like 14.5 bit recordings ;)
Quote

not if you slam zeroes all the time. ;)

straight from the sbm1 manual:

"Dynaminc Range: more than 90db"

to me that's probably an a-weighted spec. so my guess is 90db is the max. 90/6 = 15

so you are almost there when you ping 0 ;)
« Last Edit: April 28, 2005, 12:29:34 PM by STL-Taper »

Offline scb

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Re: 722 First Impressions
« Reply #38 on: April 28, 2005, 12:49:55 PM »
you dont' "have" to run as hot because even peaking at -6, you're still far surpassing a "16 bit dat" recording and getting a lot more dynamic range.  running hotter might be better, but peaking at -6 or so is definitely not a bad thing at 24 bit

Offline dmonterisi

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Re: 722 First Impressions
« Reply #39 on: April 28, 2005, 12:54:29 PM »
you dont' "have" to run as hot because even peaking at -6, you're still far surpassing a "16 bit dat" recording and getting a lot more dynamic range.  running hotter might be better, but peaking at -6 or so is definitely not a bad thing at 24 bit

yeah, but wouldn't you want to maximize the resolution you are getting out of 24bit?  the one time i ran the 722, i was unfamiliar with its metering and after the first song i backed off the levels a little bit.  once i listened to the recording, i was really disappointed that i did.  the first track sounded much more vibrant and dynamic than the next 5 or 6 tracks when i ran more conservatively.  the recording seemed to open up more with the increased levels. 

Offline trajhip2000

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Re: 722 First Impressions
« Reply #40 on: April 28, 2005, 01:28:56 PM »
keep in mind that what we are talking about is linear quantization here, so that no matter how many bits you use for recording, the "step size" is still 6 dB/bit. 24-bit doesn't take the same S/N and divide it into more steps that 16-bit, instead it increases the S/N by reducing the noise floor from the A/D conversion process.  this gives you the alternative of running lower levels but still getting the same or better S/N than if you ran higher levels at 16-bit. from a purely S/N perspective you are still better off running as close to 0 dB as possible, but as soon as you go over 0 dB your S/N drops, sometimes dramatically depending on how far over and whether it was just a few samples (like a drum hit) or something more substantial. so the basic idea is that 24-bit allows you to run levels more conservatively, avoiding overs with a reasonable safety margin, but still getting S/N that is as good or better than 16-bits run hotter.

when we talk about post-recording processing, there is no doubt that doing this at the highest bit level possible is an advantage (mathematically at least, at what point the differences become audible is another question).

I would be careful when comparing recordings run at different levels, it is a well-known phenomenon that even a level difference as small as 0.5 dB can be enough to make the hotter source sound better, even if it's identical otherwise.

Steve

Offline Zee

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Re: 722 First Impressions
« Reply #41 on: April 28, 2005, 01:56:44 PM »
Wow you go to lunch and come back to a lesson in 24bit recording... You guys rock...



The MMW recording I made on Sunday is hot I was hitting -3dbs a lot. The Derick Trucks show is not as hot -8 to -6. So I guess this weekend at mule Ill bump it up.
4022>v2>722
Please dither and resample as you see fit!

Offline wbrisette

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Re: 722 First Impressions
« Reply #42 on: April 28, 2005, 02:29:07 PM »
Nick (or anyone who does so, for that matter) - can you help us understand why you're running more conservative levels at 24-bit?

I tend to run at around -10 to -5 dB. I do this because the current firmware in the Deva IV & V doesn't have limiters enabled and I don't ever want to go over 0. Even with the meters on the Deva, it's tough to distinguish -2 dB from 0 dB. There has been some talk about adding something so you know when you hit 0, and limiters are suppose to be enabled in the next rev or two of the firmware. That said, depending on how the limiters sound, I might still run somewhat weak.

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Offline nickgregory

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Re: 722 First Impressions
« Reply #43 on: April 28, 2005, 02:30:56 PM »
That is my next test...going to enable the limiters on the 722 and run it hot and see what the audible difference is....

Offline Zee

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Re: 722 First Impressions
« Reply #44 on: April 28, 2005, 02:32:13 PM »
Quote
That is my next test...going to enable the limiters on the 722 and run it hot and see what the audible difference is....


Yeah I was wondering what they sounded like also. Let us know what you think.. Im not going to run the limiter this weekend.
4022>v2>722
Please dither and resample as you see fit!

 

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