Topic: MK41 versus AK50 caps

[sparkey]

I'm in flux with my gear...I'm not getting out, but want to look at my options.

I've owned Neumann KM140's for a number of years and am contemplating purchasing KM100 bodies and the AK50 capsules or perhaps really throwing down and buying the MK41 caps and then having to save my sheckles for the CMC6 bodies and active cables.

You don't see too many people running the AK50s.  I ran them for STS9 a few years back and was very happy with their sound.  Thoughts?  Any other equipment I should be looking at?  Has this thread been beaten to death already?  Is a frogs ass watertight?

Thanks!

Josh

[Gordon]

there aren't too many of us that really like the ak50's.  I sure wish i did cause every now and then I need hypers (not all the time bean) ; )

so that said if you can do it go for the mk41's (never thought I would say that) if you need actives.  if you don't need actives go for the 483's.

[sparkey]

So why is that?  I thought the tape I made with them sounded great....

there aren't too many of us that really like the ak50's. 

[nedstruzz]

I found the 41's to have a more defined low end.  While I have heard the 150's make good tapes I think the 41's make more consistantly good tapes. 

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

I really like the clarity of the AK50s but to me they sound thin out of the box.  I never liked the raw recordings I made.  I've had several people send me recordings that they absolutely love but I always find the lack of LF bothers my ears.  The roll off is especially obvious on my home playback system where I can reproduce some deep bass.  In the car it doesn't seem as severe.

A friend who loves the 50s suggested two things to me: (1) learn the pattern graph and use the off axis response curve to bring the HF more inline with the LF roll-off and (2) apply an EQ curve in post to correct for the low end roll-off.  

I tried (1) with improved results but I have not tried (2).  After I transfer all my old masters again, I'll probably try the inverted AK50 response curve to see if that changes my mind.  

IMO the MK41s are the best hypers for the section.  If you plan to keep additional capsules in your bag, then I'd stay with the Neumann AK40 or AK43 for running up front and EQ the AK50s in post.  I've heard some great FOB tapes with MK41s but they never ripped my head off like some of the FOB AK43 tapes I made.  If its possible to keep the 140s and also have the MK41s, I'd do that, clamp the MK41s in the section and then head up front with the AK40s.

  
(ned posted while I was typing.  We were just discussing this topic a few nights ago.)

[sparkey]

I've found the Schoeps to be more forgiving...Neumanns are accurate, like it or not.  But you can make some screamin' tapes for less cheddar by buying the Neumanns.

Theoretically, a used KM150s would be in the $2000 range with bodies and actives.  I'm guessing the CMC6>lc5>mk41 would be about $3000?  That sound about right?

Cards are a good all around capsule, but I'd like to have a pair of hypers and a pair of subs instead of the one size fits all of the cards.

Josh

I found the 41's to have a more defined low end.  While I have heard the 150's make good tapes I think the 41's make more consistantly good tapes. 

[sparkey]

What is the pickup pattern of the AK43?

I patched out of a guy at Rockygrass a couple of years back.  He was way FOB and running the MK41's, which sounded waaaay nice.

  I've heard some great FOB tapes with MK41s but they never ripped my head off like some of the FOB AK43 tapes I made.  If its possible to keep the 140s and also have the MK41s, I'd do that, clamp the MK41s in the section and then head up front with the AK40s.

 
(ned posted while I was typing.  We were just discussing this topic a few nights ago.)

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

What is the pickup pattern of the AK43?

I patched out of a guy at Rockygrass a couple of years back.  He was way FOB and running the MK41's, which sounded waaaay nice.

AK43s are the subcards.  I run them NOS on a KWON bar and they capture a full enveloping sound.  I have an infatuation with subs FOB.  I've run them further back and they are still good but they will pick up the ambient chatter if you aren't in the impact zone.  I switch to 40s if I can't get to the spot where I want to be.

I'm not dissing the MK41s up close.  They do a nice job everywhere but I just really like the sound of subs up close.

[Kevin Straker]

What is the pickup pattern of the AK43?

I patched out of a guy at Rockygrass a couple of years back.  He was way FOB and running the MK41's, which sounded waaaay nice.

AK43s are the subcards.  I run them NOS on a KWON bar and they capture a full enveloping sound.  I have an infatuation with subs FOB.  I've run them further back and they are still good but they will pick up the ambient chatter if you aren't in the impact zone.  I switch to 40s if I can't get to the spot where I want to be.

I'm not dissing the MK41s up close.  They do a nice job everywhere but I just really like the sound of subs up close.

Me too, mk21's are hard to beat in the impact zone.

[sparkey]

So could I theoretically get a pair of AK43 and AK50 caps, KM100 bodies and the actives for the same price as the MK41>LC5>CMC6?

[datbrad]

I love the AK50s. Waltmon, on this board, has made killer recordings with them. I actually prefer them to the MK41s, but that's just me. Still, I am partial to the AKG CK63s hyper sound over all others.

[danlynch]

I've made several hundred recordings with my 50s and no one seems to complain about the low end.
Obviously, I'm biased, but I've never really understood the anti-50's meme on this board.  My theory is that its coming from ears that grew up listening to "Phil bombs" and prefer more aggressive bottom end.  I prefer crisper lows.

As a matter of comparison, I've also made hundreds of recordings with my 4021s and I consistently prefer the 150s.  When I have option to open tape, I literally always grab the Neumanns.

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

Walt is one of the guys who fed me AK50 tapes.  He had my caps for a while when I was only running up close with the AK43s.   He sent a few CD full of samples and if he hadn't met that girl I think he would have married the AK50s.  I listened and I just felt like something was missing.  I don't mean to sound negative, it's just preference. 

My theory is that its coming from ears that grew up listening to "Phil bombs" and prefer more aggressive bottom end.  I prefer crisper lows.

    Maybe so.

[sparkey]

I personally feel that the Neumanns are under-rated and under-appreciated (which, pricewise, makes them a great bargain).  Better low end can be achieved by upgrading your playback system, as much as swapping microphones.  Thanks for the replay, it's good to hear that like the Neumanns over the DPA's.

I've made several hundred recordings with my 50s and no one seems to complain about the low end.
Obviously, I'm biased, but I've never really understood the anti-50's meme on this board.  My theory is that its coming from ears that grew up listening to "Phil bombs" and prefer more aggressive bottom end.  I prefer crisper lows.

As a matter of comparison, I've also made hundreds of recordings with my 4021s and I consistently prefer the 150s.  When I have option to open tape, I literally always grab the Neumanns.

[sparkey]

No negativity taken, thanks for the post!

I don't mean to sound negative, it's just preference. 

My theory is that its coming from ears that grew up listening to "Phil bombs" and prefer more aggressive bottom end.  I prefer crisper lows.

    Maybe so.

[silentmark]

ak50's with the mme sound really nice, without the mme not so much, good but on the thin side ...

[sparkey]

Nicer than a V2 or V3?

ak50's with the mme sound really nice, without the mme not so much, good but on the thin side ...

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

FWIW, I was running V2->SBM1 back then

[easy jim]

Still, I am partial to the AKG CK63s hyper sound over all others.

I agree completely.

[anhisr]

When I use my AK50s I just fix the low end in post.  The information is there, just a little low in level.  With 24 bit it is no big problem to fix the tape in post without hurting the recording.

[silentmark]

Nicer than a V2 or V3?

ak50's with the mme sound really nice, without the mme not so much, good but on the thin side ...

Well I'm biased as I do not like the v2/v3 to begin with, top notch products just not my bag. With that said, yes the ak50 sounds much better with a mme than a v2v3. The mme fills out the "thinness" of the ak50 cap imho ...

[Craig T]

the ak50 sounds much better with a mme than a v2v3. The mme fills out the "thinness" of the ak50 cap imho ...

agreed 100%.

If I was purchasing hypers or supercards, I'd go with the Schoeps mk41v's.  While I haven't heard a comp of ak50 vs. mk41 vs. mk41v, the few times I've used/heard the mk41v's, I've really been pleased.

[wklitz]

Whenever Neumann decides to ship out my new gear, I'll have the AK50's to compare to my MK41's

[keepongoin]

the 150s > m148 is great.  also, i made some nice recordings with 150s > V3 > JB3 and 150s > V3 > R4... hell, even the 150s > R4 i thought sounded pretty darn good. 

i do like the 140s better for most applications though. 

if anyone wants to borrow AK-50s for a trial, let me know... i can loan them out if you promise to treat them well when you use them and get them back to me in not too many weeks.

[shaggy]

AK50s kill in boomy venues and cavernous spaces.  I have run them with KM100 > W+modUA5 and LC3 > Lemosax > modSBM and the results were great.  Between the MK41 and AK50, they both can deliver amazing results in various situations.  The imaging and clarity with the AK50s is what grabs you.

[Nick's Picks]

ak50's with the mme sound really nice, without the mme not so much, good but on the thin side ...

My thoughts exactly.  150>MME is totally sick.

[DSatz]

I have to tread lightly here because of my relationship with the Schoeps company--I don't want to be a shill. Thing is, I own a pair of Neumann KM 150 microphones and think very highly of them. Their polar pattern is extremely consistent across the frequency range, and the slight elevation in their high frequency response can give a nice bit of "sparkle" if the original sound is lacking in that dimension.

I agree that they're best for use in "boomy" sounding rooms, though, and since I have alternatives with much flatter low-frequency response, I wouldn't normally choose them for most full-range music recording. It seems to me that the AK 50 capsule was probably developed with film and video sound in mind, and for use as a spot (close-up) microphone, rather than for more distant general recording, given the slope of its low-frequency response.

Should I post the catalog curves here and compare them to speech microphones and standard studio microphones to show what I mean? The KM 150 is down ca. 9-10 dB at 50 Hz; a classic speech cardioid such as the KM 85 is -12 dB at 50 Hz, while a classic standard cardioid such as the KM 84 is ca. -2 dB at 50 Hz (all at the usual 1-meter equivalent measuring distance). So the KM 150 is about 3/4 of the way toward being a speech microphone, objectively speaking.

However, it can take EQ very well because its polar (directional) pattern is extremely consistent, even down to the lowest frequencies. People truly shouldn't be afraid of trying that. If you dial in the right curve, the result can sound every bit as good as if the capsule had had full low-frequency response to begin with. (Please don't argue with me about this unless you've actually tried it yourself.)

I also want to express my deep agreement with the fellow who loves the wide cardioids--I haven't tried Neumann's capsules yet (I'll bet they're really good), but I just mean that when the acoustical conditions are ripe for using that pattern for stereo recording, the results can be so delicious I could cry. They're the most fun ever. It's just that you really do need to get in closer, and the room acoustics and the layout of the sound sources all have to be working in your favor, or at least not completely against you, for the magic to work.

--best regards

[cfox]

I prefer the mk41v's to the mk41's...

[H₂O]

I prefer the mk41v's to the mk41's...

Of course you do!

I personally prefer the 41's to the 41v's

[danlynch]

Thanks for yet another informative post, DSatz.

If anyone is familiar with the venue in NYC called "Terminal 5" and its incredibly high ceilings and wide expanse which result in some of the boomiest sound you've ever heard -- you might want to check out my recent pulls of The Hold Steady and Drive-By Truckers in that room with the 150s.  Proof positive that these mics kill in boomy rooms.

http://www.nyctaper.com/?p=438
http://www.nyctaper.com/?p=435

[run_run_run]

Add the 463 and 483 to this debate

[jerryfreak]

anyone weighing the cost of cmc6's+kc5s as an alternative to the neuman rig would be doing themselves a disservice by not checking out the cmr series. a pair of these cost 40% of a cmc6/kc5 setup

[it-goes-to-eleven]

anyone weighing the cost of cmc6's+kc5s as an alternative to the neuman rig would be doing themselves a disservice by not checking out the cmr series. a pair of these cost 40% of a cmc6/kc5 setup

It'd be interesting to hear a comp between the cmc+kct and cmr.   Ideally some detailed purely acoustic stuff and also some outrageously loud stuff that pushes the mics to the edge of SPL handling.

[sparkey]

CMR series?  Those are actives?

Hey guys, thanks for all the feedback on this....

Josh

anyone weighing the cost of cmc6's+kc5s as an alternative to the neuman rig would be doing themselves a disservice by not checking out the cmr series. a pair of these cost 40% of a cmc6/kc5 setup

[DSatz]

Freelunch, the CMR has the same maximum SPL capability as a CMC amplifier. What's lower is its sensitivity, i.e. the absolute output voltage that you'd get from it at any given sound pressure level. Both the CMR and the CMC circuits are sonically neutral, and there's no reason to expect any audible difference between them, at very high SPLs or otherwise.

Also, if sound levels are ever at or near the limit of a Colette series microphone (in either form) on other than a momentary basis, you are exposing your hearing to permanent damage and you should limit your exposure to as few seconds as you can, then probably go see an ear doctor--as I understand it, there actually are some medicines that if given very soon after an overdose of sound, may limit or reduce the damage to the cochlear nerve cells.

--best regards

[it-goes-to-eleven]

Thanks for the response DSatz.   I just like to confirm these things through actual listening tests.

Regarding the high SPLs, of course I have protection.  I haven't heard about the drug to reduce hearing damage. That's interesting.

[discopanic1]

The Schoeps do have a great sound, regardless of price.  The 41's are great from the distance or a bar.  I really dig the sound on the 4's up close!  AK50 caps unsure if I've heard a recording compared. 

[sparkey]

I got the MK41's!!!!

[H₂O]

You won't be disappointed!!!

[silentmark]

Yes he will